Pakistan, Tracked APC design

[cabatli_53]

Brothers, I have seen a picture of Pakistan stand in IDEF2009 that shows an APC design looks like to Turkish FNSS Akinci... Would you please give some information about related APC ? Is it an indigenous design or We will see another Turk-Pak cooperation project for future (I hope) After Milgem and UAV's?

 

[cabatli_53]

That is an outdate source that was mentioned similar things like above...

Pakistan'la askeri iþbirliði

Google translate...
02-06-2005

Turkey, Pakistan to the armored carriers, assault boat with this country's land and sea forces could be used to sell electronic devices. Electronic devices with the advanced technology ASELSAN and Havelsan may go for investments and cooperation with Pakistan to transfer. Moreover, the joint production of pilotless air vehicle is on the agenda of the two countries.

 

[Penguin]

Brothers, I have seen a picture of Pakistan stand in IDEF2009 that shows an APC design looks like to Turkish FNSS Akinci... Would you please give some information about related APC ? Is it an indigenous design or We will see another Turk-Pak cooperation project for future (I hope) After Milgem and UAV's?

Like the M113 from which it derives, it's got a beard (though this one's got 6 rather than roadwheels so it's streched).

In 1967, funded by the U.S. Army, the FMC corporation produced two prototype vehicles designated as XM765, based on their experiences earlier XM701 vehicle, developed for the MICV-65 programme. The XM765 was based on the M113A1, upgraded with an enclosed turret and firing ports, so that the infantry could fight from within the vehicle. The Army evaluated the vehicle, but decided that they wanted a better protected and more mobile vehicle,[1] selecting instead the M2 Bradley.

FMC continued development as a private venture resulting in the product improved (PI) M113A1 in 1970....The vehicle would later be designated the AIFV (armored infantry fighting vehicle)... After a series of demonstrations and the delivery of four evaluation vehicles in 1974, the Netherlands government placed an order for 880 of the vehicles in 1975, which were designated YPR-765 when they entered service. In total the Netherlands ordered 2,079 of which 815 were produced locally under license.

AIFV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Saw one of these (MP version) rumble by doing 70km/h on the highway escorted by a couple of motorbikes not 2 weeks ago:

 

[cabatli_53]

"Like the M113 from which it derives, it's got a beard (though this one's got 6 rather than roadwheels so it's streched)."

Yes, Turkish ACV-S Akinci is a derived streched version of M-113 which uses many same subsystems with it...

"The ACV-S is the general name for the family of modern high performance vehicles, all derived from the highly successful FNSS ACV 300. These vehicles have proven themselves with a number of Armies World Wide. ACV-S offers the latest developments in high value vehicle performance but maintains the advantages of commonality with ACV 300 family of vehicles."

FNSS


What about Pakistan APC design that seen on picture ? It is also same derived design work like FNSS Akinci?

 

[A1Kaid]

"Like the M113 from which it derives, it's got a beard (though this one's got 6 rather than roadwheels so it's streched)."

Yes, Turkish ACV-S Akinci is a derived streched version of M-113 which uses many same subsystems with it...

"The ACV-S is the general name for the family of modern high performance vehicles, all derived from the highly successful FNSS ACV 300. These vehicles have proven themselves with a number of Armies World Wide. ACV-S offers the latest developments in high value vehicle performance but maintains the advantages of commonality with ACV 300 family of vehicles."

FNSS


What about Pakistan APC design that seen on picture ? It is also same derived design work like FNSS Akinci?

Merhaba kardeşim

The Pakistani APC you are referring to is the "Al-Talha", as seen below.



http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/24/56/shinecommerce/folder/7/img_7_12892_8?1180837408.jpg


And it is derived from the M-113 (US model) APC.


"It is also same derived design work like FNSS Akinci?"-Cabatli

Most likely yes.

 

[Penguin]

"Like the M113 from which it derives, it's got a beard (though this one's got 6 rather than roadwheels so it's streched)."

Yes, Turkish ACV-S Akinci is a derived streched version of M-113 which uses many same subsystems with it...

"The ACV-S is the general name for the family of modern high performance vehicles, all derived from the highly successful FNSS ACV 300. These vehicles have proven themselves with a number of Armies World Wide. ACV-S offers the latest developments in high value vehicle performance but maintains the advantages of commonality with ACV 300 family of vehicles."

FNSS


What about Pakistan APC design that seen on picture ? It is also same derived design work like FNSS Akinci?

IMHO yes. But that doen'st mean it is a bad vehicle. Besides, derived design work can be substantially different. Take, for example, the K-200 KIFV: it looks the same externally but underneath subsystems (e.g. engine: Deawoo/MAN D2848T instead of Detroit Diesel Allison 6V-53T ) are very different from the original AIFV and M113 series. And there are slight structural difference (e.g. lower hull front shape, frontal armor thickness, rear ramp shape): to an extent this applies to Talha too.

 

[niaz]

Understand that there is a marked difference between APC and AIFV.
APC is essentially a troop carrier; one can say a throw back to the days when Dragoons used to ride to the battlefield on horse back but actually fought on foot. APC provides protection against small arms fire versus transport in a lorry (motorized infantry). AIFV on the other hand a is fighting vehicle, essentially a very lightly armored but maneuverable light tank, here the emphasis would be on mobility and fire power rather than just self protection as for APC.

I am not aware of the AIFV’s in use by PA. One would think that in urban/ guerrilla environment such as FATA and Swat, AIFV would have been worth their weight in gold. Would greatly appreciate clarification by a military expert such as Hon Fatman as to what does PA think about AIFV’s and the future plans by POF to manufacture AIFV's"?

 

[Shiji]

I am not aware of the AIFV’s in use by PA. One would think that in urban/ guerrilla environment such as FATA and Swat, AIFV would have been worth their weight in gold. Would greatly appreciate clarification by a military expert such as Hon Fatman as to what does PA think about AIFV’s and the future plans by POF to manufacture AIFV's"?

POF did showcase a AIFV/IFV at the Ideas-2004 termed as Al-Hamza. It was meant for export but maybe PA also uses it. I have never seen it in Swat or in any NEWS footage.

These are all in service with the PA and offered for export by HIT. One significant variant, which is not in service with the PA, but was developed for export is the M-113 based Al-Hamza IFV. Equipped with a Chinese supplied 25mm armed unmanned turret with co-axial 7.62mm, the Al-Hamza does not fit into current PA operational doctrine. The PA believes that the role of a troop carrying tracked vehicle is to be a ‘battle taxi’ to deliver troops to where the fight is and not be involved in any serious fighting themselves as an IFV would. The Al-Hamza turret is not currently produced by HIT but is a component that can be integrated with the hull of the M-113 if the customer so requires.

 

[Penguin]

Understand that there is a marked difference between APC and AIFV.
APC is essentially a troop carrier; one can say a throw back to the days when Dragoons used to ride to the battlefield on horse back but actually fought on foot. APC provides protection against small arms fire versus transport in a lorry (motorized infantry). AIFV on the other hand a is fighting vehicle, essentially a very lightly armored but maneuverable light tank, here the emphasis would be on mobility and fire power rather than just self protection as for APC.

I am not aware of the AIFV’s in use by PA. One would think that in urban/ guerrilla environment such as FATA and Swat, AIFV would have been worth their weight in gold. Would greatly appreciate clarification by a military expert such as Hon Fatman as to what does PA think about AIFV’s and the future plans by POF to manufacture AIFV's"?

Well, there's AIFV and AIFVs. Just compare YPR-765 and M-2 Bradley. That's a 15 ton weight difference right there. Yet, one can't very well label YPR-765 an APC. Its armor protection level is 14,5mm AP all round. KIFV has 23mm AP frontal IIRC. And newer stretched versions as made by Turkey carry a Bradley IFV turret (albeit without TOW) or even BMP-3 turret.

Incidentally, I think the terminology these days is IFV / ICV rather than
AIFV, which refers to a particular vehicle (so do KIFV and the MTVL-based EIFV). I suspect ICV is best reserved for the heavier 25-35 ton vehicles (Marder, Puma, Bradley, CV-90, Warrior, etc).

 

[MadDog]

Yup bro....its like Talha APC...also exported to Iraq