Pakistan to skip US summit on democracy

[Menace2Society]

My Pakistan friend,

Are you willing to give up your current political system if most of your wishes will be fulfilled? Would you like to try a Chinese alike system which can make plans for next 20-50 years?

The current political system makes plan for next 5 years before next election, sometimes government lasted for 1-2 years, or even days.

List of prime ministers of Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

IK is the 22nd PM. Average tenure of office since 1947 is 2+ years if you take military government into consideration.

Think about it, my dear friend.

Pakistanis do not have the discipline or a cohesive society to make this work. No doubt someone corrupt or incapable will take over and not deliver or religious zealots will control and turn Pakistan into Afghanistan.

Democracy is their accountability, an audit. Risk management.

 

[Patriot forever]

If one looks at our history objectively, the US has been a great partner and supporter of Pakistan ever since we initially aligned ourselves with them. The only instance where we can place fault on them is when they left the Afghanistan mess all to us and subsequently placed us under sanctions (Pressler Amendment). However, the US would do the exact same to any other similar ally who develops Nuclear Weapons because the US doesn't want any other country to produce them. Hell, I don't want any other country to have that capability and I am just an individual.

I have also found that we have not been able to convey our concerns and requirements to the US objectively and that many a time, personal ambitions overwhelm National causes. In instances, the US can sufficiently acquire services against personal gains rather than the country's benefit........maybe to the detriment of the National interests at times. In my opinion, more blame lies upon us than the US for the inconsistency of our relations ever since 9/11.





I do agree with you. We failed to capitalize on our relations with the US, which could have proceeded in an entirely different direction under Musharraf had we truly aligned ourselves to the US's cause instead of playing double games. In return, we could have demanded many things, slowly and gradually, after building trust. We could have been their gateway to South East Asia, we could have provided permanent bases so long as our debt was paid off. We could have progressed through transfer of technology, not just military technology but industrial, medical and manufacturing technology. We could have been so much more........

Infact, we effed up our relation with Saudi Arabia too (place the entire blame on Imran Khan) when we failed to assist the future monarch with his ambitions in Yemen. We could just as easily have provided 50k troops which could have accomplished all MBS desires in return for clearing off of our debt or free Oil for the next 25 years or something similar. But Imran Khan architected an attack, with the assistance of PPP, in the parliament where plans by PML to assist Saudi Arabia were thwarted. Now, why should the Saudis continue to assist Pakistan when Pakistan refuses to assist them in return?

China is a different game altogether. China will share everything with us, at a price. But China will NEVER provide aid or financial assistance (without interest). The US provided us tens of Billions of USD over the many decades but China does not believe in providing such aid. It believes only in providing loans (some may be cheap loans on loose terms) but at the end of the day it expects the money back with interest.

Had I been in power, in the interest of Pakistan, I would have always sided with US on most matters except those which to China, India, Saudi Arabia, UAE and perhaps Turley & Malaysia. And I would have gifted Afghanistan to the US on a platter after ensuring that Pakistan's debt was taken care of.

I totally agree with you on the economic aspect. The response will come especially when we are at the IMF. There can not be a more glaring example than FATF at how politics runs in these institutions. Wonder why Saudi loan was delayed and it took this much time? You are absolutely right.
What I would like to differ is understanding of Chinese financial assistance. The moment you differentiate between Chinese companies and state level assistance you will understand my point. If you study Chinese state level assistance its extraordinary, no one would have done that from Chinese concessionary loans in CPEC to state level deposits.
Chinese assistance especially CPEC was a bigger opportunity for us to develop ourselves but we dug ourselves further 6 feet below the ground. ( We do not have a good record in dealing with companies be it Karkey or Reko Diq, that does not mean we run off blaming Turkey or Australia). Chinese companies especially IPP's are no more different than karkey etc, they are here to make money and to take advantage. That's the nature of business.

I do understand that overall international organizations like ADB or WB are a better conduit overall just because of their oversight into projects. The only reason we have leeser productive inflows from such organizations to a point where they require IMF approval is our own doing. Same goes for the Bond market and credit agencies ratings.

On the geoplolical front. It has changed dramatically over the course of last decade.
The way I see it America is no longer a neutral state that era is long gone, forget about getting any benefits from it. Its core objective and interest drives its foreign policy, not some bullshit like democarcy or humanrights or media freedom etc. These are all just tools like many financial institutions.
Its only objective is to counter China ( stop it from becoming a regional power, India is USA new pawn). There intentions for this region ( South Asia) is no secret.

 

[KaiserX]

I totally agree with you on the economic aspect. The response will come especially when we are at the IMF. There can not be a more glaring example than FATF at how politics runs in these institutions. Wonder why Saudi loan was delayed and it took this much time? You are absolutely right.
What I would like to differ is understanding of Chinese financial assistance. The moment you differentiate between Chinese companies and state level assistance you will understand my point. If you study Chinese state level assistance its extraordinary, no one would have done that from Chinese concessionary loans in CPEC to state level deposits.
Chinese assistance especially CPEC was a bigger opportunity for us to develop ourselves but we dug ourselves further 6 feet below the ground. ( We do not have a good record in dealing with companies be it Karkey or Reko Diq, that does not mean we run off blaming Turkey or Australia). Chinese companies especially IPP's are no more different than karkey etc, they are here to make money and to take advantage. That's the nature of business.

I do understand that overall international organizations like ADB or WB are a better conduit overall just because of their oversight into projects. The only reason we have leeser productive inflows from such organizations to a point where they require IMF approval is our own doing. Same goes for the Bond market and credit agencies ratings.

On the geoplolical front. It has changed dramatically over the course of last decade.
The way I see it America is no longer a neutral state that era is long gone, forget about getting any benefits from it. Its core objective and interest drives its foreign policy, not some bullshit like democarcy or humanrights or media freedom etc. These are all just tools like many financial institutions.
Its only objective is to counter China ( stop it from becoming a regional power, India is USA new pawn). There intentions for this region ( South Asia) is no secret.

You both have good points. Undoubtedly the US provided key economic support/assistance to Pakistan in the past as the Chinese are heavily doing today (via a different state lead structure).

The key here is that it has always been Pakistan which has failed to leverage to take benefit from such support. Pakistan is perhaps the only major cold war ally that did not become a fully developed country. That to in asia (taiwan, korea, malaysia, UAE, etc). Today pakistan fails to leverage Chinese economic support to get financing at a lower rate from say Japan, Malaysia, Korea, US, or Europe. There is a lot of free helicopter $$$ to go around these days with such low interest rates. Countries like japan/korea are providing bangladesh, vietnam, africa will loans where by are almost losing money when taking inflation into consideration.

My fear is once interest rates start going up Pakistan will completely lose the window of opportunity to finance large scale projects at the rate it can today. Many future projects will dry out and die if we dont take opportunity now.

 

[Patriot forever]

You both have good points. Undoubtedly the US provided key economic support/assistance to Pakistan in the past as the Chinese are heavily doing today (via a different state lead structure).

The key here is that it has always been Pakistan which has failed to leverage to take benefit from such support. Pakistan is perhaps the only major cold war ally that did not become a fully developed country. That to in asia (taiwan, korea, malaysia, UAE, etc). Today pakistan fails to leverage Chinese economic support to get financing at a lower rate from say Japan, Malaysia, Korea, US, or Europe. There is a lot of free helicopter $$$ to go around these days with such low interest rates. Countries like japan/korea are providing bangladesh, vietnam, africa will loans where by are almost losing money when taking inflation into consideration.

My fear is once interest rates start going up Pakistan will completely lose the window of opportunity to finance large scale projects at the rate it can today. Many future projects will dry out and die if we dont take opportunity now.

Coming to the last point. Brother we have far more pressing issues to face if the Feds increase the interest rate than to finance large projects, apart from that as far as large scale projects is concerned we did take advantage of it (as best as we could given our credit ratings) when we floated Green Bond and Indus bond ( planned) by WAPDA to finance large dams under construction in Pakistan, as much as was needed for the time being though the offering was over subscribed by a margin.

Core CPEC is financed by Chinese state sponsered concessionary financing in line with ( or even better than what the likes of Japan are offering against their projects to other countries). As I said China state concessionary financing and IPP type sovereign guaranteed return investments are polar opposite of each other. Even the Saudis deposits are a bargain in this global environment.

The problem with us is the projects have to be financially viable for them to make sense in relation to the financing cost, sadly in the last couple of decades its the exact opposite. Otherwise no matter how good it looks its a disaster and burden in making.

Lastly the reason we have failed is more than making financially viable projects we have wasted them in practices like currency manipulation or unsustainable import driven growth craziness, where other countries used it to make their economies structurally sound.
Right now most of our increase in debt is due to interest payment. We are in a debt trap.

 

[Rank]

US and democracy? seems like Sunny Leone and Sharaft on the same platform

 

[Mav3rick]

handing over bases to US. we have several pressure groups in the form of right wings who are always there to take benefit of the situation arising and then the establishment: it simply does not suit them. they are well established with three tier of forces and the institutions like ISI to work for their own cause either it is politics within the country, foreign policy or nuclear assets and US existence simply kidnap their interests and of nation.

The country needs to put her interests above all others and if that means aligning to the Super Power, then so be it.

we know spying devices were found in Islamabad during Musharraf regime when US contractors were in Pakistan and much more which was not disclosed to the nation and it was the time we were their front line ally. we cannot trust them and it is like for ever.

The US was caught spying on the UK, Canada, Germany and other countries too but that did not stop them from forging great relations with the US; the reason being that the US is a Super Power and a generous one at that.

on relationship with Saudis, they have the habit of keeping us at a lower scale with a developed thought of us being their "yes sir"

why did they list us with other countries into their coalition force without asking or taking into confidence?
could do it in a better way but their ego gets hurt like a kid whoes toy is broken. in the end they look at us when security issue arise off and on? When trump said they will lift the security of the kingdom and their existence will be in shambles and it is a fact. then who every time give them the security assurance, is it Egypt or UAE or some other Muslim country who can't even defend themselves.

The US has several bases in the Gulf and has thousands of troops stationed there, all at the expense of the Arabs, apparently to defend the countries from external (other countries) and internal (uprising) threats. We could have taken over that role, and we could have been so much better at it. We messed it all up.

we need to ally with China very cleverly because there is a difference between China and US. US have interests in this region which they have to buy them. on the other hand China's interests are well served, Pakistan being side with them already on this. then what do we have to bring them to the table?

hence our relations with both the US and China are very important to balance out because both counter each other and we will need our relations with US for our importance towards China, stable.

I do not understand what you are trying to say but the fact is that the US is THE only country that can get us out of the financial mess that we are in, no other country can or will do it.

 

[Mav3rick]

I would love to know these great things they have done for Pakistan, please share some.

Tens of Billions of USD in direct financial assistance. Technical assistance on many matters especially military related. Offer of sale of advanced military equipment such as F-16's, Abraham's, Corvettes/Frigates, Helicopters, Armaments etc, All the hurrah's that we have from battles/wars is because of US equipment. Trainings of almost all the senior most Military Officers. Drawing a red line over the integrity of East Pakistan in 1971 through their CBG's. Assistance (financial & material) in combating the Soviet Union in Afghanistan etc.

How generous of you to call worse thing ever happening in Pakistan a small (mess). So, according to you,Afghan war that left us almost bankrupt and infested with terrorist that destroyed our economy and then they put sanctions on us to make the deal even sweeter.

Upon their return they allowed Indians to openly operate terrorist camps in Afghanistan and literally destroyed Pakistan, and that's no biggie according to you, we should stay in that camp for more future goodies to come.

It was not a fight the US imposed on Pakistan, it was a fight that Pakistan imposed on the US and the US begrudgingly obliged after years of coercion. We were already involved in Afghanistan much earlier and it took a lot of persuasion to bring the US to the fight. I find it strange that people blame the US for a fight that we started. The only thing that the US demanded from us was to not pursue Nuclear Weapons and we did; the US looked the other way as long as it's purpose was served in our war against the Soviet Union but it could not look away any more once its interests were served. Again, blame ourselves.

Even before they returned, they demanded help from Pakistan, absolute support in Afghanistan. India offered support which was declined. What we did was to stab them in the back, thinking that the Talibaan were in our interest. The US only allowed India to start it's games in Afghanistan after years of deceit from Pakistan and not before giving Pakistan every opportunity and every benefit of doubt! The US finally got frustrated with us and then evidently decided to punish us directly (Salala, OBL, FATF etc.) and indirectly (Indian & Afghan Proxy Wars against Pakistan). If only we had truly aligned ourselves to the US, we would neither be shamed throughout the world, we wouldn't be in a financial mess and we wouldn't be beaten and bruised diplomatically. On the contrary, we would have global support against India. Alas, we effed everything up.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Folks usually do what they can afford...

It shows Pak can afford this snub to the USA! Pak, I believe, has other buttons and nobs to play with as far as the US interests are concerned. And, those are way more serious than this farcical exercise...

By the by, with trillions of $s being printed at the monthly basis and the inflation sky rocketing, the USA now needs China more than ever before!! All these moves are to woo China to what had been like before...

As for this 110 countries coming together, too many cooks spoil the broth...

Pak is on a win/win mode....

*The US's luck is now such that whatever she's trying new is backfiring

 

[ghazi52]

Thank you!

Pakistan may skip Biden-led 'Democracy Summit' after China's exclusion

Reports suggest that China has not objected to Pakistan attending the summit but it seems Pakistan on its own decided to not upset the friend. | OpIndia News

www.opindia.com

 

[ghazi52]

Tens of Billions of USD in direct financial assistance. Technical assistance on many matters especially military related. Offer of sale of advanced military equipment such as F-16's, Abraham's, Corvettes/Frigates, Helicopters, Armaments etc, All the hurrah's that we have from battles/wars is because of US equipment. Trainings of almost all the senior most Military Officers. Drawing a red line over the integrity of East Pakistan in 1971 through their CBG's. Assistance (financial & material) in combating the Soviet Union in Afghanistan etc.





It was not a fight the US imposed on Pakistan, it was a fight that Pakistan imposed on the US and the US begrudgingly obliged after years of coercion. We were already involved in Afghanistan much earlier and it took a lot of persuasion to bring the US to the fight. I find it strange that people blame the US for a fight that we started. The only thing that the US demanded from us was to not pursue Nuclear Weapons and we did; the US looked the other way as long as it's purpose was served in our war against the Soviet Union but it could not look away any more once its interests were served. Again, blame ourselves.

Even before they returned, they demanded help from Pakistan, absolute support in Afghanistan. India offered support which was declined. What we did was to stab them in the back, thinking that the Talibaan were in our interest. The US only allowed India to start it's games in Afghanistan after years of deceit from Pakistan and not before giving Pakistan every opportunity and every benefit of doubt! The US finally got frustrated with us and then evidently decided to punish us directly (Salala, OBL, FATF etc.) and indirectly (Indian & Afghan Proxy Wars against Pakistan). If only we had truly aligned ourselves to the US, we would neither be shamed throughout the world, we wouldn't be in a financial mess and we wouldn't be beaten and bruised diplomatically. On the contrary, we would have global support against India. Alas, we effed everything up.

Yes, USA gave tremendous boost to Pakistan, but in return USA squeeze every drop of blood.
There is no free lunch in this world. One has to do service for the money and material.
Now China is doing, but not the destruction of the system.
Pakistan is still a useful commodity and can do due to it's placement on this planet,

 

[rambro]

Look beyond the surface, it's a summit of US dictatorship.

Self-determined countries not invited or invited but refrained from attending is actually a good thing.

 

[vi-va]

Pakistanis do not have the discipline or a cohesive society to make this work. No doubt someone corrupt or incapable will take over and not deliver or religious zealots will control and turn Pakistan into Afghanistan.

Democracy is their accountability, an audit. Risk management.

I understand. May I quote @Nan Yang 's post from another thread here as my response to you?

China Foreign Affairs: The State of Democracy in the United States 中国外交部：美国民主情况

And yet you can still access this website without a VPN, you can have your own opinion and air it publicly even if it's against your government. You can hold protests, mock your Prime Minister or you can hold any official accountable. You can have an idea on what's going on in the country...

defence.pk

Err if you are coming from the low base then perhaps. But when Singapore broke away from Malaysia, Singapore dollar vs Malaysian Ringgit was 1:1. Singapore is an authoritarian government...no ? Now 55 years later, 1 Singapore dollar can buy 3.1 Ringgit. And I believe Singapore GDP now equals Malaysia.



Talk about accountability.

W Bush invaded Iraq based on WMD which turned out to be false. Over to 4 thousands US soldiers were killed. Many more maimed. Estimated 200 thousands Iraq civilians were killed. Millions were displaced. Country's infrastructure destroy. US treasury drained. Country handed over to Iran which is now the new enemy. Oil now goes to China. It does not even help promote US interest.
Where is the accountability ? Anybody punish ?

How did China do fighting the Covid ? They stopped it in 76 days. Yet they fired dozen of officials last year and recently fired over 30 officials.
How about US. Death reaching 800K. Anybody got fired or punished ?

Opioid death last year reached 100K. Anybody punish ?

Now talk about democracy.
Yes, but what is the ultimate goal of a democracy ? I understand all those check and balance institutions and kicking out government you do not like.
That the typical argument I get. Talk about the process by all means but never ignore the results on the ground.

What the world needs, including United States is good governance not democracy.

Oh....Per the democracy advocate. Unless the narrative have changed. The reason you have democracy is to create a prosperous country.
China must have democracy since China is getting more and more prosperous.

China Foreign Affairs: The State of Democracy in the United States 中国外交部：美国民主情况

East Asian countries like South Korea, Japan or even Taiwan don't look up to the Chinese system simply because its nothing special to them, since they have already passed that stage of development that China is going through decades ago. So it might sound impressive for others in other parts of...

defence.pk

No. I disagree.
You only have to study how China stop the Covid virus in 76 days then you will understand.
Like how the hell do you lock down a city of 11million 2days before Chinese New Year.
Even building a hospital in one week. Think of the logistics.

Even better. 2008 Wenchuan 8.0 earthquake. No warning. 90min and Premier was on the plane to the epicenter.

Obviously they have a unique system like no other.

 

[Ghessan]

Saleem Safi--who someone above has ridiculed while quoting me-- is a well informed journalist and probably amongst the top-most authorities about the K-P province of Pakistan and Afghanistan--is hinting toward such a compromise. Shooting the messenger doesn't kill the message!

i did not ridicule you, sorry if you feel that way.

and yes journalists are informed if not they then who else. but the thing is character and credibility hits the bottom when they sell themselves. if you don't know what he is doing these days then you must.

also if people sitting at this forum do not understand what these media people are then general public is doing the right thing by watching the 8pm program of their liking just to brag about politics the next day.

besides if you look around you will find much much better and credible journalists from KP.

My Pakistan friend,

Are you willing to give up your current political system if most of your wishes will be fulfilled? Would you like to try a Chinese alike system which can make plans for next 20-50 years?

The current political system makes plan for next 5 years before next election, sometimes government lasted for 1-2 years, or even days.

List of prime ministers of Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

IK is the 22nd PM. Average tenure of office since 1947 is 2+ years if you take military government into consideration.

Think about it, my dear friend.

i have no such wishes and in my reply to another friend i explained it by saying that it is not possible.

i was only reply to someone who was saying to give up with US and i explained why it is not possible.

 

[Ghessan]

The country needs to put her interests above all others and if that means aligning to the Super Power, then so be it.

had the matters worked so casually, i would have agreed with you.

The US was caught spying on the UK, Canada, Germany and other countries too but that did not stop them from forging great relations with the US; the reason being that the US is a Super Power and a generous one at that.

true but being a Muslim country we will never be at that ease with US and that threat will be over our necks for ever.

The US has several bases in the Gulf and has thousands of troops stationed there, all at the expense of the Arabs, apparently to defend the countries from external (other countries) and internal (uprising) threats. We could have taken over that role, and we could have been so much better at it. We messed it all up.

Arabs and their interests, the allowed them to station, there is a history behind it. last year when trump threat Saudis, it must have open eyes.

I do not understand what you are trying to say but the fact is that the US is THE only country that can get us out of the financial mess that we are in, no other country can or will do it.

i agree with you on this, they can do it but would they?

 

[Mav3rick]

true but being a Muslim country we will never be at that ease with US and that threat will be over our necks for ever.

Then why are we at ease with Saudi Arabia which has caused more Muslim deaths than even the US? Most of the US wars are financed by Saudi Arabia and UAE but we are so at ease with them. The Middle East must have invested Trillions of USD in the US with their purchase of Weapons, Comfort and Protection; they are responsible for financing a major chunk of the US's and France's Weapons industry but we have no problem with them. Then why should we have problems with the US?

i agree with you on this, they can do it but would they?

With so much distrust between us, it would take decades to build confidence. Once that is built, on both sides, the US would absolutely help us as it has helped all her allies.

And while we do that, we need to end enmity with India too as it is NOT benefiting any party, not Pakistan, nor India or Kashmir. We should be willing to accept that occupied Kashmir is never coming back and India should accept that Azad Kashmir is never going back; the LoC must be made a permanent IB and the 2 neighbors should learn to grow with trade and commerce like France and England and many other European countries did.