Pakistan to get more SAAB 2000 Erieyes

[Thorough Pro]

I am torn between

To counter Rafael we need an air superiority fighter something like Typhoon, but again being western fighters they will be pretty much susceptible to sanctions, especially as western Europe (Britain & Germany) tows the US line more diligently than say France

The alternate is either China or Russia. Getting latest Russian SU34/35 will enhance our relationship with Russia, long term political benefits, especially in the wake of India getting closer to west, opening up door to enhanced cooperation with Russia in aviation industry with systems/weapons for Thunders and possible new developments in the future, and most importantly acquisition of the missing element in our air strike package, a heavy/deep strike missile/bomb truck at relatively lower price than the European option thus getting more (say 20 units per squadron instead of 16 per squadron in case of Typhoon).

Comparing total benefits of both options, I think NS is right in pushing for the Russian direction as we would have a lot more leverage on Russia through China when it comes to sanctions (continuous supply of weapons and parts through china) would be a more desirable position rather than full sanction by the west.

J-10 C is most likely coming and no F-16 yes will keep coming but PAF is quite close to getting EAF they have done there work and even talks have been done by seller parties it's only Nawaz who is creating little trouble


INSHALLAH they will get them soon really soon

 

[Arsalan 345]

This time, lets hope these planes are stored in proper places and NOT out in the open.

If you know what I mean.

By the way, how will AWACS be defended in the air and what is the data link scene looking like |?

Will these talk to JFs ?

AWACS always have 3 to 4 jets close to it.you have to engage fighters first before attempting a missile launch on AWACS.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Let's not derail the thread by going on different tangents here, lets focus on the AEWC, for Army weapons you can create new threads in the appropriate forum

No but there were reports we are buying something form Spain

 

[Arsalan 345]

i want paf to have at least 40 AWACS.they are necessary tools.similarly you can't always trust on your fighters.we need more sams and we must cover our important cities with sams.india is doing it fast because it's planning for an all out war.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Military systems are not like candies mass produced and warehoused. They are customer specific and made to order. No sane organization blocks its funds in inventory.

Looks like an opportunist purchase. SAAB may have overstock or redundant stock and getting rid at low low price.

You are so wise, why did you not give this advice to IAF in favour of Tejas against Rafael?

Why go for such expensive planes when chinese are offering their top of the line j10 and j20 at cheap rates ?

 

[WarFariX]

I am torn between

To counter Rafael we need an air superiority fighter something like Typhoon, but again being western fighters they will be pretty much susceptible to sanctions, especially as western Europe (Britain & Germany) tows the US line more diligently than say France

The alternate is either China or Russia. Getting latest Russian SU34/35 will enhance our relationship with Russia, long term political benefits, especially in the wake of India getting closer to west, opening up door to enhanced cooperation with Russia in aviation industry with systems/weapons for Thunders and possible new developments in the future, and most importantly acquisition of the missing element in our air strike package, a heavy/deep strike missile/bomb truck at relatively lower price than the European option thus getting more (say 20 units per squadron instead of 16 per squadron in case of Typhoon).

Comparing total benefits of both options, I think NS is right in pushing for the Russian direction as we would have a lot more leverage on Russia through China when it comes to sanctions (continuous supply of weapons and parts through china) would be a more desirable position rather than full sanction by the west.

Yar no one is buying 4.5th gen . Ban me from PDF the day we get SU35 or Eft ... common sense agar hum sab use karen keeping in mind the budget of PAF , how easy it is for us to buy and maintain and how much benefit would that give us , then no kid would even think of getting 4.5th gen jets

i want paf to have at least 40 AWACS.they are necessary tools.similarly you can't always trust on your fighters.we need more sams and we must cover our important cities with sams.india is doing it fast because it's planning for an all out war.

 

[Path-Finder]

Yar no one is buying 4.5th gen . Ban me from PDF the day we get SU35 or Eft ... common sense agar hum sab use karen keeping in mind the budget of PAF , how easy it is for us to buy and maintain and how much benefit would that give us , then no kid would even think of getting 4.5th gen jets

yea but you are going towards the other end of the spectrum, with the (derwaishy+mufakry)that there is no (EFT+SU35) coming

 

[HannibalBarca]

What is the RCS of SU-35, and what is the RCS of Eurofighter Typhoon???
From what I know (through Hazrat Google) SU 30 have a frontal RCS of 3m2 while both Rafale and Eurofighter have an RCS of 0.5m2 which is said to be less than that of an F-16 even.

Don't bash me guys. I just want to know what is the real values known amongst professionals.

A cousin of mine in PAF once told me, in his words, "SU30 has such a large RCS, it's like a flying ship. You will see it from where the earth curves."
However, he also said about our beloved JF17, "Chankana hai" corruption ka moqa paida krny ka bahana.
But that was 2011, hope thunder has made progress since then.

But, coming back if the RCS of Flankers is so huge, why would we want them in PAF, the enemy will know we are coming the time "bomb truck" takes off.

RCS (m²) per aircraft

B-52 --100
B-1(A/B)-- 10
F-15 --25
Su-27 --15
Su-MKI --4
Mig-21-- 3
F-16 --5
F-16C --1.2
F-18 --1
Rafale --1
B-2-- 0.75
Typhoon --0.5
F-35 / JSF --0.005
F-117 --0.003
F-22 --0.0001
B-2 --0.0001

 

[WarFariX]

What is the RCS of SU-35, and what is the RCS of Eurofighter Typhoon???
From what I know (through Hazrat Google) SU 30 have a frontal RCS of 3m2 while both Rafale and Eurofighter have an RCS of 0.5m2 which is said to be less than that of an F-16 even.

Don't bash me guys. I just want to know what is the real values known amongst professionals.

A cousin of mine in PAF once told me, in his words, "SU30 has such a large RCS, it's like a flying ship. You will see it from where the earth curves."
However, he also said about our beloved JF17, "Chankana hai" corruption ka moqa paida krny ka bahana.
But that was 2011, hope thunder has made progress since then.

But, coming back if the RCS of Flankers is so huge, why would we want them in PAF, the enemy will know we are coming the time "bomb truck" takes off.

Look dear. RCS is not uniform value. it changes depending on what has been mounted on a plane.
Without any load <A2Aconfig <A2G config.
Rcs increases as per my above equation. Now coming to MKI , yes SU30/SU-27 Have largest RCS currently and thats what makes them much much vulnerable to long range detection and tracking which is where PAF has high chances of taking down MKIs more than mirages or tejas ,rafale. Actual RCS for unloaded MKI is around 15m^2 frontal while it can go upto 19m^2 with A2A/A2G config...Meanwhile Thunder has very tiny RCS , probably 6 times less than MKI . I dont know the correct value but by looking , it is no more than 2.7m^2 frontal. During BVR combat, Thunder can detect MKI even before MKI knows that it is being watched by thunder. Similarly ,thunder after getting bit more closer can track MKI perfectly at which point it can launch barrage of BVR missiles on MKIs without MKIs being noticed that it is being hunted. After doing that, Thunder can reverse ots route or perform some clever maneuvers to trap and surprise MKIs in WVR combat given that MKIs survive the BVR attacks which it can due to presence of very strong ECM systems.

RCS (m²) per aircraft

B-52 --100
B-1(A/B)-- 10
F-15 --25
Su-27 --15
Su-MKI --4
Mig-21-- 3
F-16 --5
F-16C --1.2
F-18 --1
Rafale --1
B-2-- 0.75
Typhoon --0.5
F-35 / JSF --0.005
F-117 --0.003
F-22 --0.0001
B-2 --0.0001

dear , MKI is above 15m^2 .

yea but you are going towards the other end of the spectrum, with the (derwaishy+mufakry)that there is no (EFT+SU35) coming

Zarvan bhai bohat ziada fikarmand rehte hain . isliye aisi batein kabhi kabar karte hain

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I am more excited because it shows that SAAB don't have any issues selling us weapons. Because after first 4 there were reports that SAAB may not sell us any more weapons but now it seem they have changed the policy. So I am hoping that Army will consider these also

No, Sweden categories weapons before sales, so while Pakistan could buy EriEye,
it would not be possible to buy Gripen.

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

Aakhir kiun??
Why? It's a good aircraft and if sold to Pakistan. Could have killed the JF17 project.
Another question is why is Gripen an offensive weapon when Pakistan looks to purchase it while a defensive weapon if neighbouring India does??
Do the Swedes view Pakistan in such a negative light, despite we gave everything to weaken the biggest threat (USSR) to Europeans.
How inconsiderate of them.

No, Sweden categories weapons before sales, so while Pakistan could buy EriEye,
it would not be possible to buy Gripen.

 

[WarFariX]

Aakhir kiun??
Why? It's a good aircraft and if sold to Pakistan. Could have killed the JF17 project.
Another question is why is Gripen an offensive weapon when Pakistan looks to purchase it while a defensive weapon if neighbouring India does??
Do the Swedes view Pakistan in such a negative light, despite we gave everything to weaken the biggest threat (USSR) to Europeans.
How inconsiderate of them.

Bhai bhai , We were fed up of continuous black mails on arms with USA componenets. Gripen uses modified GE engine which again is sanction prone. We were to buy gripen back then but america didnt like that instead offered us Block 52 so we got them instead

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Aakhir kiun??
Why? It's a good aircraft and if sold to Pakistan. Could have killed the JF17 project.
Another question is why is Gripen an offensive weapon when Pakistan looks to purchase it while a defensive weapon if neighbouring India does??
Do the Swedes view Pakistan in such a negative light, despite we gave everything to weaken the biggest threat (USSR) to Europeans.
How inconsiderate of them.

There are a number of criteria considered when arms deals are approved.
Pakistan has a history of military coups, which is a significant show-stopper.
India is considered a democracy, so it has much less problems.
Rules are beeing updated on a regular basis.
2014 saw the adoption of common EU rules for arms exports

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

There are a number of criteria considered when arms deals are approved.
Pakistan has a history of military coups, which is a significant show-stopper.
India is considered a democracy, so it has much less problems.
Rules are beeing updated on a regular basis.
2014 saw the adoption of common EU rules for arms exports

Ironic how the AWACS were sold to a "dictator" Musharaf?

And now after a decade ur sellin to the same country under a civilian/democratic (blood suckin) govt.

Aakhir kiun??
Why? It's a good aircraft and if sold to Pakistan. Could have killed the JF17 project.
Another question is why is Gripen an offensive weapon when Pakistan looks to purchase it while a defensive weapon if neighbouring India does??
Do the Swedes view Pakistan in such a negative light, despite we gave everything to weaken the biggest threat (USSR) to Europeans.
How inconsiderate of them.

Economics my dear man.

Show em the money.

Remember the same people offered grippen to Musharaf?

Now that the indians have rejected grippen for MRCA , its business asusual.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Ironic how the AWACS were sold to a "dictator" Musharaf?

And now after a decade ur sellin to the same country under a civilian/democratic (blood suckin) govt.


Economics my dear man.

Show em the money.

Remember the same people offered grippen to Musharaf?

Now that the indians have rejected grippen for MRCA , its business asusual.

EriEye is not considered a weapon useful to quell internal unrest, so it has much less limitations.
SAAB may try to sell to anyone, but the government has the final say,
and when Musharaf started asking questions about Gripen he was told
that it was out of the question.
Plenty of threads which discuss this on PDF.
Suggest you look them up, instead of repeating the arguments in this thread.