Pakistan Navy's Submarine Plans: S-20 vs Type 214

[Hassan Guy]

So I was reading another one of @Quwa articles where it discussed the Pakistan Navy's Submarine Plans.

http://quwa.org/2016/10/31/understanding-pakistans-submarine-plans/

Interestingly it mentioned Pakistan's original plan to buy the Type 214 Submarine. So this raised just a few questions.

Why did the deal with German vendor fall apart?

and

How does the S-20 Submarine compare to the Type 214?

 

[Reichsmarschall]

How does the S-20 Submarine compare to the Type 214?

@Penguin Sir your comments??

 

[PK_Patriot]

So I was reading another one of @Quwa articles where it discussed the Pakistan Navy's Submarine Plans.

http://quwa.org/2016/10/31/understanding-pakistans-submarine-plans/

Interestingly it mentioned Pakistan's original plan to buy the Type 214 Submarine. So this raised just a few questions.

Why did the deal with German vendor fall apart?

and

How does the S-20 Submarine compare to the Type 214?

What germans did with Iranian so no one should trust Germany when buying weapons. From money of Iran they are giving weapons to Israel.

So I was reading another one of @Quwa articles where it discussed the Pakistan Navy's Submarine Plans.

http://quwa.org/2016/10/31/understanding-pakistans-submarine-plans/

Interestingly it mentioned Pakistan's original plan to buy the Type 214 Submarine. So this raised just a few questions.

Why did the deal with German vendor fall apart?

and

How does the S-20 Submarine compare to the Type 214?

But important question is if Pakistan is buying top level weapons of China or just buying cheapest economic weapons. If S-20 is superior to Type 094 Jin class submarine or even Type 39A/B/C. We have no solid Amphibious warfare ships to trust on.

 

[Hassan Guy]

What germans did with Iranian so no one should trust Germany when buying weapons. From money of Iran they are giving weapons to Israel.


But important question is if Pakistan is buying top level weapons of China or just buying cheapest economic weapons. If S-20 is superior to Type 094 Jin class submarine or even Type 39A/B/C. We have no solid Amphibious warfare ships to trust on.

The type 094 is Ballistic Missile sub tho

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Why did the deal with German vendor fall apart?

What germans did with Iranian so no one should trust Germany when buying weapons. From money of Iran they are giving weapons to Israel.

actually the deal was nearly done it was PN who backed off (citing lack of available funds as the reason)
the original deal was for three u-214s for 1.3 or 1.5 billion in 2005/2006 i dont really remember it was so long ago but every thing was discussed to death on this very forum

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin Sir your comments??

We don't know enough about S-20 from the public domain to do a good comparison with Type 212A

S-20 (Type 212A)

Crew 38. (27)

Structure: normal steel double hulled (non-magnetic steel pressure hull, light outer hull)

Dimensions:

• length 66 meters (56m batch 1, 57.2m batch 2)
  
• beam 8 meters (7m)
  
• draft 8.2 meters (6m, capable of operating in as little as 17 metres of water)
  
• surface displacement 1,850 tons (1,450 tons)
  
• submerged displacement 2,300 tons (1,830 tons)

Performance:

• maximum speed 18 knots (20kn submerged, 12kn surfaced),
  
• cruise speed 16 knots (on diesels),
  
• range 8,000 nautical miles at 16 knots (8,000nm at 8kn surfaced, 3000nm at 4kn submerged)
  
• endurance 60 days (21 days without snorkeling, 84 days overall)
  
• maximum submerging depth of 300 meters (test depth over 700m).

Propulsion:

• diesel-electric (diesel-electric)
  
• basic boat is not equipped with air-independent propulsion but it may also be fitted with Sterling AIP system if a customer so requests. (basis boat has PEM fuel cells).

S-20 Equipment
variable frequency hydrophonic detection device
towed sonar.

S-20 Weapons

• may vary according to customer requirements
• Can accommodate mines, heavyweight torpedoes e.g. Yu-3 (Russia: SET-65E) and Yu-4 (Russia SAET-50) as well as anti-ship missiles e.g. C-80# / YJ-8# series from six torpedo tubes, possibly also CY-1 ASW rocket.
  
• Can deploy special forces.
  
• China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation gives no details about the types of weapon to be installed on S-20 submarine, but it declares that it may provide torpedoes, rocket-propelled torpedoes, anti-torpedo torpedoes, etc.

Type 212A Equipment and Weapons

• Armament:
  • 6 x 533 mm torpedo tubes (in 2 forward-pointing asymmetric groups of left 4 + right 2 ) with 13 torpedoes or 24 tube mines
  • IDAS missiles
  • 24 external naval mines (optional)
• Countermeasures:
  • Torpedo defence system Tau, 4 launchers, 40 jammers/decoys
• Sensors:
  • STN Atlas DBQS40 sonar suite:
    • TAS-3 passive low-frequency towed array sonar (deployed from sail)
    • FAS-3 passive low-, and medium-frequency hull-mounted flank array sonar
    • MOA 3070 mine detection sonar
  • Periscopes:
    • Carl Zeiss SERO 14, with FLIR and optical rangefinder
    • Carl Zeiss SERO 15, with laser rangefinder
  • Riva Calzoni periscope masts and snorkeling systems
  • Kelvin Hughes Type 1007 I band navigation radar
  • EADS FL 1800U ESM suite
  • WASS hydrophones
  • Avio GAUDI autopilot and hydraulic systems
  • Kongsberg MSI-91 combat system

 

[HttpError]

We don't know enough about S-20 from the public domain to do a good comparison with Type 212A

S-20 (Type 212A)

Crew 38. (27)

Structure: normal steel double hulled (non-magnetic steel pressure hull, light outer hull)

Dimensions:

• length 66 meters (56m batch 1, 57.2m batch 2)
  
• beam 8 meters (7m)
  
• draft 8.2 meters (6m, capable of operating in as little as 17 metres of water)
  
• surface displacement 1,850 tons (1,450 tons)
  
• submerged displacement 2,300 tons (1,830 tons)

Performance:

• maximum speed 18 knots (20kn submerged, 12kn surfaced),
  
• cruise speed 16 knots (on diesels),
  
• range 8,000 nautical miles at 16 knots (8,000nm at 8kn surfaced, 3000nm at 4kn submerged)
  
• endurance 60 days (21 days without snorkeling, 84 days overall)
  
• maximum submerging depth of 300 meters (test depth over 700m).

Propulsion:

• diesel-electric (diesel-electric)
  
• basic boat is not equipped with air-independent propulsion but it may also be fitted with Sterling AIP system if a customer so requests. (basis boat has PEM fuel cells).

S-20 Equipment
variable frequency hydrophonic detection device
towed sonar.

S-20 Weapons

• may vary according to customer requirements
• Can accommodate mines, heavyweight torpedoes e.g. Yu-3 (Russia: SET-65E) and Yu-4 (Russia SAET-50) as well as anti-ship missiles e.g. C-80# / YJ-8# series from six torpedo tubes, possibly also CY-1 ASW rocket.
  
• Can deploy special forces.
  
• China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation gives no details about the types of weapon to be installed on S-20 submarine, but it declares that it may provide torpedoes, rocket-propelled torpedoes, anti-torpedo torpedoes, etc.

Type 212A Equipment and Weapons

• Armament:
  • 6 x 533 mm torpedo tubes (in 2 forward-pointing asymmetric groups of left 4 + right 2 ) with 13 torpedoes or 24 tube mines
  • IDAS missiles
  • 24 external naval mines (optional)
• Countermeasures:
  • Torpedo defence system Tau, 4 launchers, 40 jammers/decoys
• Sensors:
  • STN Atlas DBQS40 sonar suite:
    • TAS-3 passive low-frequency towed array sonar (deployed from sail)
    • FAS-3 passive low-, and medium-frequency hull-mounted flank array sonar
    • MOA 3070 mine detection sonar
  • Periscopes:
    • Carl Zeiss SERO 14, with FLIR and optical rangefinder
    • Carl Zeiss SERO 15, with laser rangefinder
  • Riva Calzoni periscope masts and snorkeling systems
  • Kelvin Hughes Type 1007 I band navigation radar
  • EADS FL 1800U ESM suite
  • WASS hydrophones
  • Avio GAUDI autopilot and hydraulic systems
  • Kongsberg MSI-91 combat system

Penguin, do you think we will be able to produce nuclear submarine ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

So I was reading another one of @Quwa articles where it discussed the Pakistan Navy's Submarine Plans.

http://quwa.org/2016/10/31/understanding-pakistans-submarine-plans/

Interestingly it mentioned Pakistan's original plan to buy the Type 214 Submarine. So this raised just a few questions.

Why did the deal with German vendor fall apart?

and

How does the S-20 Submarine compare to the Type 214?

Possibly several reasons:

1. Cost. In 2009, Pakistan put itself under very strenuous austerity conditions in exchange for loans from the IMF (to deal with various fiscal shortfalls). No room for funding a multi-billion dollar submarine deal.

2. The Germans were apparently concerned about Pakistan possibly enlarging the torpedo tubes for SLCMs.

 

[Penguin]

Penguin, do you think we will be able to produce nuclear submarine ?

Honestly, probably in time you could but the questions are do you really need to, do you really want to? Because it means foregoing a lot of other things (you can only spend that money once). Besides, if that's the goal, start with producing a submarine first (as opposed to buying). Same for frigates. jet fighters etc.

PERSONALLY, I recommend spending the money on education and healthcare.

 

[New World]

What germans did with Iranian so no one should trust Germany when buying weapons. From money of Iran they are giving weapons to Israel.

can you explain further this..

 

[Hassan Guy]

Possibly several reasons:

1. Cost. In 2009, Pakistan put itself under very strenuous austerity conditions in exchange for loans from the IMF (to deal with various fiscal shortfalls). No room for funding a multi-billion dollar submarine deal.

2. The Germans were apparently concerned about Pakistan possibly enlarging the torpedo tubes for SLCMs.

Ok, so they had no problem with Israel arming their subs with Nuclear Weapons but they do with Pakistan? Aight fair enough

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Tank131 @Penguin @Arsalan @Horus

The following would be my 'dream world' configuration for the Pakistan Navy's upcoming Chinese submarines. I am basing my opinion based on the assumption that the Navy policy people were exposed to the same naval industry we have been following, especially in areas such as subsystems, propulsion, and weapons configuration.

To be honest, I could very well be setting myself up for disappointment, but I do believe the following are individually plausible, but if taken together, could be ideal.

We don't know what submarine hull we're talking about, but for argument's sake, let's assume that it is the S20 (which could at least be considered the minimum certainty).

The one thing I would be surprised seeing is the Stirling AIP. For our warm water environment, the optimal solution would be fuel-cell AIP. However, the extent of China's competency in producing miniaturized fuel-cell stacks for use in a submarine is an open question. We know that China has a fairly active fuel cell industry, with the Dalian Institute even collaborating at one point with its German counterparts in the area. Sufficiently small fuel cell stacks have multiple applications, it need not be confined to powering a submarine, so it would be surprising if there wasn't a fair bit of Chinese investment in this area. Alternatively, the PN could try and make a play for a third-party fuel-cell stacks. In any case, the optimal and forward leaning approach would be to power these submarines with fuel-cells.

The next aspect is less sure, but plausible. The subsystems - e.g. sonar, combat management system, ESM, torpedo countermeasures, etc - could be sourced from Turkey. This may sound like a "for the sake of it" argument, but Pakistan did select at least one of these systems - i.e. ARES-2SC/NS ESM (and possibly more) - will reach the Agosta 90Bs. The Navy will have a high level of familiarity using these systems. It would be natural to standardize as much as possible, especially if the Navy is evidently satisfied with these subsystems already.

VLS is becoming an industry expectation, though in conventional submarine designs, it's mostly in illustrations and mock-ups. In other words, this is fairly new stuff (for serviceable conventional submarines). That said, a lot of the up and coming designs - e.g. Amur and SMX-26 - use VLS for AShM and UUVs. Obviously, there is no guarantee for VLS, but China has been working on sub-surface VLS applications. This familiarity is key as that means the PN does (or did) have the opportunity to work with China in this area.

 

[Penguin]

The larger the difference between the hot and cold sections of a Stirling the more the efficiency rises. The heat sink is typically the environment the engine operates in, the ambient temperature. In the case of medium to high power engines, a radiator is required to transfer the heat from the engine to the ambient air. Marine engines have the advantage of using the cool ambient sea, lake or river water which is typically cooler than ambient air. In the case of combined heat and power systems, the engine's cooling water is used directly or indirectly for heating purposes raising efficiency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine#Comparison_with_internal_combustion_engines

(In weather, ambient temperature refers to the current air temperature -- the overall temperature of the outdoor air that surrounds us. ambient air temperature is the same thing as "ordinary" air temperature.)


Sea surface temperature (SST) is the water temperature close to the ocean's surface. The exact meaning of surface varies according to the measurement method used, but it is between 1 millimetre (0.04 in) and 20 metres (70 ft) below the sea surface.

Daily, global Sea Surface Temperature (SST) data set produced on December 20th, 2013 at 1-km (also known as ultra-high resolution) by the JPL ROMS (Regional Ocean Modeling System) group

Weekly average sea surface temperature for the World Ocean during the first week of February 2011, during a period of La Niña.

This image shows temperature changes in the ocean per depth (a) at night and (b) during the day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_surface_temperature

"For our warm water environment, the optimal solution would be fuel-cell AIP."
Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-navys-submarine-plans-s-20-vs-type-214.459191/#ixzz4PDhbXcPA

The Sterling AIP fitted operational submarines in Asia (Australian Collins class = Kockums design, Japanese Soryu with Kockums Sterling , Singaporean Archer class = modified Swedish Västergötland) must all operate in sea water with relatively high surface temperatures. However, as you can see, sea water temperature drops off quite quickly beyond 10m depth. So, I doubt that the 'warm water' issue plays a big role except perhaps when operating in very shallow water. It may also be less of an issue when operating in the Arabian Sea closer to e.g. Strait of Hormuz or more towards Africa's Eastern shore, than farther out South /South-East e.g. way down India's West coast.

China's choice for Sterling type engines, together with the three sub classes mentioned says something of their ability to ALSO operate in relatively warm waters effectively and/or intened operating areas.

HOW BIG of a difference between Steling and fuel-cell AIP in this respect???? And how does that weigh in relation to other advantages/disadvantages of one type or the other AIP???

Thus far, in its ship export, China has often installed Western sensors and armaments, based on the customer requirements. I don't see why they shouldn't in the case of submarines. Indicative may be the submarine sale to Thailand. Also, many a Chinese system or sensor has a Western-European (Thales sonar e.g.) or US ancestor. This should ensure some degree of compatibility with sensors/equipment by Western-European or US producers, of not comparability. QUestion then becomes how different/similar are the products of Chinese versus non-Chinese producers.

As for VLS, there is to date no sub with VLS (for cruisemissiles, as opposed to ballistic missiles) operational in Chinese service

I am not aware Western manyfacturers are offering cruisemissile VLSs for submarines on the market. So, to the best of my knowledge, only the Russians have offered it (e.g. modified AMUR 950) and here too that particular VLS is not in operational service anywhere. Far more likely (and simpler) would be tube-launch. Though this may lead to a request for a larger displacement boat, which can store more rounds in total (e.g. 18 as in Kilo). Eight boats, each with e.g. 4 or 6 nuclear tipped cruise missiles could yield 2 boats at sea permamently, with 8-12 missiles which can be ripple fired in quick succession from existing torpedo tubes.

 

[Penguin]

Seawater Temperature

​

Seawater temperature map showing areas of warmer water in red and areas of cooler water is blue. White areas represent ice. Notice the upward finger of cold water in the South Pacific off of South America and the downward finger of cold water in the North Pacific off of the West Coast of the USA. The reasons for these become apparent when you learn about the major ocean currents

The temperature of seawater varies with the amount of sun that hits that area. This includes the length of time as well as the angle of the sun's rays. The longer the time and the more direct the rays of the sun fall on the ocean, the greater the temperature of seawater. Thus, tropical areas that get more year-round sun and more direct sun (almost 90 degrees, straight down for most of the year at noon) have warmer surface waters than polar areas that may have no sun at all for several months each year and then very steep angles of the sun's rays (never directly overhead at noon). Knowing this about ocean water helps us understand that surface ocean temperatures are warm in the tropics (up to 30 or more degrees C) and cooler at the poles (down to -2 degrees C). But, when we look below the surface we find that the oceans are also vertically stratified and marine scientists recognize a basic three layered ocean - the upper mixed layer, the main thermocline, and deep (bottom) water.

​

The upper mixed layer is all one temperature but that temperature can vary from -2 degrees C, at the poles, to +30 degrees C, in the tropics. It all depends on the latitude and effects of the sun's heat and may be highly seasonal. The depth of this layer can be anything between the surface and 200 meters deep - usually the 200 meter depth is near the equator. The volume of this upper mixed layer is only about two percent of the volume of the ocean water.

The main thermocline is an area of rapidly decreasing temperature with depth. This changes with latitude and may begin at 200 meters (the bottom of the mixed layer) in the tropics where it may end at close to 1,000 meters (or anywhere above that depending on the strength of the sun). It may also begin right at the surface of the ocean in high temperate areas and extend to a variety of depths. This layer shifts up and down with the seasons in the temperate areas. The main thermocline comprises only 18 percent of the volume of the ocean water.

Deep (or bottom) water is always one cold temperature ranging between -2 to +5 degrees C. It is below the main thermocline (at the bottom of the thermocline there is no longer a decrease in water temperature with depth ... it is all one cold temperature). It is not affected by the seasons. This layer has most of the seawater and comprises close to 80 percent of all ocean water by volume. It is under the tropical areas, most temperate areas when there is a main thermocline, and is all the way to the surface in the polar areas (where there is no thermocline).

http://www.marinebio.net/marinescience/02ocean/swcomposition.htm

Nobody even apparently Chinese also don't want to sell Pakistan a sub which could be used to launch nuclear cruise missile and German wants to put US like restriction (like F-16) which makes Pak Navy to search for other option and Chinese offers the subs without any objection but the subs build in China can't fire SLCM but the subs build in Pakistan could be fitted with larger tubes for that purpose and later all the subs could be modified if required.

Any submarine with 533mm torpedo tubes can in principle launch nuclear tipped cruisemissiles, provided these have a diameter of 530mm max. (wings and fins folded). Alternatively, 650mm torpedo tubes could be used. Russia produces these, and - probably - also Germany (considering that the Dolphin class boats delivered to Israel are said to have 2x 650mm tubes besides 533mm tubes)

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin
But Babur (supposed SLCM) have larger dia So we have to use larger tubes.

What diameter has Babur (source?)? If it is very close to Tomahawk, then it may well fit 533mm tubes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur_(cruise_missile)
Length6.25 m (7 m with booster)
Diameter 0.52 m