Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[CivilianSupremacy]

You wont be outranging the IN and the Barak 8ER was actually tested on 22 March earlier this year. Also the DRDO is developing the XRSAM which will have a range of around 250 km against fighter jets and 350km against sea-skimming missiles. And its tech has been tested 3 times, the latest being on 8 April 2022. Plus Indian destroyers will now be carrying vl-srsam missiles.So you wont be outflanking the IN anytime soon

The ER has range of 150 KM and the missile is not operational in any of indian platforms as of today.

The Original Manufacturer Official website link:

https://www.iai.co.il/p/barak-er

The most modern indian operational frigates (3 of Shivalik Class) has Barak-1 missile with range of 12 KMs.
Other frigates like Talwar has 70's Shtil missiles without VLS.

The Kolkata / Visakhapatnam destroyers have Barak-8 missiles (LRAD) with 70 Km range.
Here is official manufacturer link: https://www.iai.co.il/p/barak-lrad

 

[syed_yusuf]

The ER has range of 150 KM and the missile is not operational in any of indian platforms as of today.

The Original Manufacturer Official website link:

https://www.iai.co.il/p/barak-er

The most modern indian operational frigates (3 of Shivalik Class) has Barak-1 missile with range of 12 KMs.
Other frigates like Talwar has 70's Shtil missiles without VLS.

The Kolkata / Visakhapatnam destroyers have Barak-8 missiles (LRAD) with 70 Km range.
Here is official manufacturer link: https://www.iai.co.il/p/barak-lrad

Indians always promote paper devices as operational and live in make believe universe that it is real. Remember su30 saga , Arjun tank, or teja etc. On top of it they want the world to believe it too

 

[GiantPanda]

Indians always promote paper devices as operational and live in make believe universe that it is real. Remember su30 saga , Arjun tank, or teja etc. On top of it they want the world to believe it too

A very weird and supremely delusional people!

Indian space program more advanced than Chinese: Scientist

The Indian space program and the research conducted by ISRO is much more advanced than the Chinese space agencies as we have indigenously developed the technology and have not been dependent on other countries, said Padma Prof. RM Vasagam

www.livemint.com

Even educated Indians believed that when China launched 55 spacecraft to India's 2 that year! lol

 

[Tank131]

Barak 8ER will likely find its way onto IN ships from Visakhapatnam-class and Kolkata class destroyers as well as Nilgiri class frigates. The Shivaliks are new enough that they could see a refit with removal of the shtil magazine and an updated VLS that can fit brahmos and BARAK 8ER.

That said, the sustainablility of the Tughrails for PN will depend on the improvement of HQ-16. If the PN does push for improved missiles, then it could become outdated very quickly. As it is, i dont have much faith in HQ-16 being able to defend against Brahmos. So it definitely needs to be improved to either a more modern variant as soon as one becomes available, or a more capable missile. The problem there is will China allow for a non-chinese missile. Im not so worried about Jinnah and Baburs as i see both will lilely be refit with MILDAS. Id imagine Baburs will see 12-16 cell MILDAS Units eventually allowing for 48-64 CAMM-ER. Jinnahs will likely also have 16 cells to start. They could do 8 Siper and 32 CAMM-ER for them too.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Barak 8ER will likely find its way onto IN ships from Visakhapatnam-class and Kolkata class destroyers as well as Nilgiri class frigates. The Shivaliks are new enough that they could see a refit with removal of the shtil magazine and an updated VLS that can fit brahmos and BARAK 8ER.

That said, the sustainablility of the Tughrails for PN will depend on the improvement of HQ-16. If the PN does push for improved missiles, then it could become outdated very quickly. As it is, i dont have much faith in HQ-16 being able to defend against Brahmos. So it definitely needs to be improved to either a more modern variant as soon as one becomes available, or a more capable missile. The problem there is will China allow for a non-chinese missile. Im not so worried about Jinnah and Baburs as i see both will lilely be refit with MILDAS. Id imagine Baburs will see 12-16 cell MILDAS Units eventually allowing for 48-64 CAMM-ER. Jinnahs will likely also have 16 cells to start. They could do 8 Siper and 32 CAMM-ER for them too.

Since there is no data available that how many missiles are intercepted by CAMM-ER and how many by HQ-16, so we really cannot make any guess. CAMM-ER's new and untested system anyways. However, from deployment point of view, we can surely say that HQ-16 is a reliable missile system. That's why it's the main air defense system of entire PLA navy frigate fleet. The system is built after decades of experiences with previous systems HQ6, HQ7 etc. PLA navy won't add any sub-standard system in their fleet as they are fully aware that their main rival is no other but US navy itself. Tughrils with 32 missiles have good defense. However, it would have been great to have HQ-10 short range missiles launcher as well.

Baburs without quad packing only has 12 missiles. Also, I will not assume that Baburs will get MILDAS refit. Saying because of PN's track record. There was a lot of talk if PN is planning to upgrade F22Ps air defense when it was the primary surface vessels but nothing happened, there was talk to weaponize MRTPs, nothing happened. There was hope to arm 2 yarmooks with Ashms but again nothing happened. Maybe 15-20 yrs later, we may expect Baburs to get refit with technologies of that era but I won't expect anything sooner.

One can argue that HQ-16 is a semi active while CAMM-ER is active radar homing. I am not really sure if it contribute in accuracy as ship's have quite powerful radars to guide the missiles. Also, if am not wrong most of US Navy Arleigh Burke class destroyers also have SM-2 (semi active missiles ).

 

[Tank131]

Since there is no data available that how many missiles are intercepted by CAMM-ER and how many by HQ-16, so we really cannot make any guess. CAMM-ER's new and untested system anyways. However, from deployment point of view, we can surely say that HQ-16 is a reliable missile system. That's why it's the main air defense system of entire PLA navy frigate fleet. The system is built after decades of experiences with previous systems HQ6, HQ7 etc. PLA navy won't add any sub-standard system in their fleet as they are fully aware that their main rival is no other but US navy itself. Tughrils with 32 missiles have good defense. However, it would have been great to have HQ-10 short range missiles launcher as well.

Baburs without quad packing only has 12 missiles. Also, I will not assume that Baburs will get MILDAS refit. Saying because of PN's track record. There was a lot of talk if PN is planning to upgrade F22Ps air defense when it was the primary surface vessels but nothing happened, there was talk to weaponize MRTPs, nothing happened. There was hope to arm 2 yarmooks with Ashms but again nothing happened. Maybe 15-20 yrs later, we may expect Baburs to get refit with technologies of that era but I won't expect anything sooner.

One can argue that HQ-16 is a semi active while CAMM-ER is active radar homing. I am not really sure if it contribute in accuracy as ship's have quite powerful radars to guide the missiles. Also, if am not wrong most of US Navy Arleigh Burke class destroyers also have SM-2 (semi active missiles ).

Well, there are a number of factors that give me pause about the HQ-16 moving forward. Main one is actually the range. The 40km is for aircraft, but its max range against cruise missiles is said to be as low as 18km...mind you that is against sea skimming missiles... Against brahmos, that may not be enough reaction time. One can say CAMM-ER is 45km...but in reality its "45km +". The standard CAMM has a stated range of 25km+ and has been tested to ranged of 60km...that tells me that CAMM-ER has a range much in excess of 45km and could be anywhere from 75-100km+ in actual max range. Beyond this CAMM and CAMM-ER were designed to intercept supersonic missiles. If you look a bit into Sky Saber (AKA Land Ceptor), it is designed to target stealth and supersonic cruise missiles). It is a far newer system from a very well known and reliable company when it comes to air defense systems (MBDA). AND YES, there is an added confidence in the notion of an active seeker over a SARH seeker, but that is not an end all issue.

Now that is not to say that HQ-16 is bad, but it was not designed for missiles like Brahmos (CAMM-ER literally was designed for that exact role). Newer versions of HQ-16 may address these issues and in fact, by all reports, they do, BUT PN doesnt have those variants yet, in the future, maybe they will be available, but those are further off than MILDAS for Jinnah or Babur, which im fairly certain is in the works. It is not at all the same issue as upgrading the F-22P. For one, the cost of removing FM-90 and adding the infrastructure for a VLS, changing the radars and combat management system all together cost more than the F-22P itself. Baburs wont need all that. It has all the infrastructure in place, wont need updated electronics or radars, it would be the cost of the VLS and manpower to install. Likely because the footprint of the GWS.35 is so small, you may only get 8-12 cells instead of 16,but quad packed in MILDAS, you would field 32-48 missiles instead of 16 (a good trade off).

 

[Cool_Soldier]

You (IN) has each and everything super and out class. No Navy can be comparable to IN.
We want you to live in that fantasy.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Well, there are a number of factors that give me pause about the HQ-16 moving forward. Main one is actually the range. The 40km is for aircraft, but its max range against cruise missiles is said to be as low as 18km...mind you that is against sea skimming missiles... Against brahmos, that may not be enough reaction time. One can say CAMM-ER is 45km...but in reality its "45km +". The standard CAMM has a stated range of 25km+ and has been tested to ranged of 60km...that tells me that CAMM-ER has a range much in excess of 45km and could be anywhere from 75-100km+ in actual max range. Beyond this CAMM and CAMM-ER were designed to intercept supersonic missiles. If you look a bit into Sky Saber (AKA Land Ceptor), it is designed to target stealth and supersonic cruise missiles). It is a far newer system from a very well known and reliable company when it comes to air defense systems (MBDA). AND YES, there is an added confidence in the notion of an active seeker over a SARH seeker, but that is not an end all issue.

Now that is not to say that HQ-16 is bad, but it was not designed for missiles like Brahmos (CAMM-ER literally was designed for that exact role). Newer versions of HQ-16 may address these issues and in fact, by all reports, they do, BUT PN doesnt have those variants yet, in the future, maybe they will be available, but those are further off than MILDAS for Jinnah or Babur, which im fairly certain is in the works. It is not at all the same issue as upgrading the F-22P. For one, the cost of removing FM-90 and adding the infrastructure for a VLS, changing the radars and combat management system all together cost more than the F-22P itself. Baburs wont need all that. It has all the infrastructure in place, wont need updated electronics or radars, it would be the cost of the VLS and manpower to install. Likely because the footprint of the GWS.35 is so small, you may only get 8-12 cells instead of 16,but quad packed in MILDAS, you would field 32-48 missiles instead of 16 (a good trade off).

Cool, I thought CAMM-ER has 35 Km max range. With your description it looks pretty decent.

 

[Horse_Rider]

The ER has range of 150 KM and the missile is not operational in any of indian platforms as of today.

The Original Manufacturer Official website link:

https://www.iai.co.il/p/barak-er

The most modern indian operational frigates (3 of Shivalik Class) has Barak-1 missile with range of 12 KMs.
Other frigates like Talwar has 70's Shtil missiles without VLS.

The Kolkata / Visakhapatnam destroyers have Barak-8 missiles (LRAD) with 70 Km range.
Here is official manufacturer link: https://www.iai.co.il/p/barak-lrad

That's a good analysis. The IN ships are getting upgrades at a slower pace because the IN is waiting for their own SAM system to become available in masses which is based on Israeli iron dome tiers, including the Barak.

Another thing to take a critical note is the S-400! While ALL the IN ships may not have the longer rage YET, they are supported by S-400 from Bhuj and it's coastline areas in Naliya, Jakhua, Kothara. These area are almost right next to Sir Creek so right by Pakistan's coastline.

What this means is that the IN can cover over half the coastline of Pakistan, up to Karachi and in the Arabian Sea (400 KM from locations provided above, 350 KM accounting for some lost energy by S-400 missiles). So they make up for not having LR SAMS on all ships and provide a strong SAM umbrella going deep into Pakistan covering all relevant airbases! This capability creates a lot of difficulties for the PN during any offensive operation. So the PN planners must keep this in mind and limit this capability to conduct operations during conflict. These sites seem like juicy targets for our anti-radiation missiles.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Well, there are a number of factors that give me pause about the HQ-16 moving forward. Main one is actually the range. The 40km is for aircraft, but its max range against cruise missiles is said to be as low as 18km...mind you that is against sea skimming missiles... Against brahmos, that may not be enough reaction time. One can say CAMM-ER is 45km...but in reality its "45km +". The standard CAMM has a stated range of 25km+ and has been tested to ranged of 60km...that tells me that CAMM-ER has a range much in excess of 45km and could be anywhere from 75-100km+ in actual max range. Beyond this CAMM and CAMM-ER were designed to intercept supersonic missiles. If you look a bit into Sky Saber (AKA Land Ceptor), it is designed to target stealth and supersonic cruise missiles). It is a far newer system from a very well known and reliable company when it comes to air defense systems (MBDA). AND YES, there is an added confidence in the notion of an active seeker over a SARH seeker, but that is not an end all issue.

Now that is not to say that HQ-16 is bad, but it was not designed for missiles like Brahmos (CAMM-ER literally was designed for that exact role). Newer versions of HQ-16 may address these issues and in fact, by all reports, they do, BUT PN doesnt have those variants yet, in the future, maybe they will be available, but those are further off than MILDAS for Jinnah or Babur, which im fairly certain is in the works. It is not at all the same issue as upgrading the F-22P. For one, the cost of removing FM-90 and adding the infrastructure for a VLS, changing the radars and combat management system all together cost more than the F-22P itself. Baburs wont need all that. It has all the infrastructure in place, wont need updated electronics or radars, it would be the cost of the VLS and manpower to install. Likely because the footprint of the GWS.35 is so small, you may only get 8-12 cells instead of 16,but quad packed in MILDAS, you would field 32-48 missiles instead of 16 (a good trade off).

You bring up many valid points. The world of missiles has moved to hi-machs. Sub sonic cruise missiles have become a thing of the past and similarly, the missile systems with ranges of 25/40 KM's. The anti radiation, standoff munitions and missiles now can target in excess of this 50KM range. The time has come for longer range AD systems and soon, Lasers will be a part of it too. We need to get with the program also and request all of our HQ-16 be upgraded.

IRIS-T from Germany is the most prominent AD system right now after Israel's iron dome. In Ukraine, it is the ONLY system with 100% success rate against incoming drones, cruise missiles and other munitions.

In the naval scenario, I've said it almost every time, every platform we buy or build, needs VLS. The standard large VLS can have rails in it to launch various platforms. Even AD missile launchers can use a different rail to launch other missiles. We need numbers of every missile system once our economy starts to get better.

Future wars will have Lasers and MALD systems. These systems are essentially emitters of jet profiles to mimic in front of a Radar from well over 100 KM's away. An A-10 can carry 16 of these (essentially emitting signal / RCS profile of 16 F-22's. or other jets, an F-16 can carry 8 of these, essentially creating a fake profile of 8 F-16's or F-35's or F-22's, etc). The concept is to confuse the AD. Now if 16 or 8 AD missiles will be launched at these devices being carried by one aircraft or drone, you've depleted your AD missile arsenal VERY quickly, for many nations, even in one strike! All the more reasons to get longer range missiles in numbers that we can afford.

 

[帅的一匹]

Latest HQ16fe has 160KM range, will be ready for export soon.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Latest HQ16fe has 160KM range, will be ready for export soon.

It already is available for export, hence the 'E. It is a land based system though.

 

[Tank131]

Latest HQ16fe has 160KM range, will be ready for export soon.

That may be, but if it is not adopted in PLAN, it needs to ve navalized. So far there is HQ-16B and even HQ-16C, neither of which are found in the Navy. So its not just having the varient out there, but it needs to be able to be launched from a ship.

 

[huanghong]

Latest HQ16fe has 160KM range, will be ready for export soon.

The latest 054A is equipped with aesa fire control radar, which may be capable of being equipped. As for Pakistan's 054ap, since it uses MR90, it is obvious that it can only use the 40km hq-16.
Although I am wondering why the 054ap, which was built at the same time as the latest version of the 054A, chose the radar designed and used 20 years ago.
Especially if the search radar has been replaced with SR2410C.

 

[Tipu7]

The latest 054A is equipped with aesa fire control radar, which may be capable of being equipped. As for Pakistan's 054ap, since it uses MR90, it is obvious that it can only use the 40km hq-16.
Although I am wondering why the 054ap, which was built at the same time as the latest version of the 054A, chose the radar designed and used 20 years ago.
Especially if the search radar has been replaced with SR2410C.

Budgetry limitations.