Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Im just wondering where the funding for this will come from?

It can only be layaway, e.g. no timeline, just buy when there's cash available (fewer years than we'd all like).

 

[ARMalik]

We can ask at IDEAS. If correct, I think it's doable provided costs are aggressively controlled, e.g. working off the Chinese Type 056 design (massively scaled at this point), finding a cost-effective source for good sensors as well as weapons (e.g. Turkey?) and, ideally, leveraging Gwadar Shipyard to get the work done.

Apparently the design of these new frigates will revolve around type C28A Chinese ships. Not only this, there is likelihood of 4 x Type 052D in the pipeline.

 

[帅的一匹]

very good news that China had developed 15MGW type CGT15 gas turbine for frigates with full displacement at 5000 tons, we can run CODAG in the near future.

with new gas tuebine, new generation frigate can easily sail beyond 32 knots.

and also type QC185 gas turbine with 18MW output will enter production phase soon.

especially credit to those foreign experts Chinese goverment recruited from Ukraine and RUSSIA who has very good experience in developing UGT15000 project, and the domestic R&D team.

the thermal efficiency of CGT15 is 40%, higher than UGT15000's 36% and LM 2500's 39%, it will extend the range of type 54b significantly.

and its nitrogen oxide emmisiom is.only 15ppm, which is top notch in the.world.

China welcomes talents and experts from all over the world, as long as you recognize one CHINA policy.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Great news!

 

[syed_yusuf]

Excellent

 

[Tank131]

There is News floating around in Sinodef and PakDef that Pakistan will acquire 12 more light frigates. These are in addition to what is on order presently. If true, this will be an immense boost and PN will become a powerful force comparable to larger Global navies.

If this is true then the design should revolve around 1 of 3 frigate designs offered by CSOC.

#1 and #3 seem the most plausible.

1. CSOC Multi Mission Frigate:The 1500t multimission frigate which has 2 ciws (rear could be replaced by PDMS) and 24 vls cells (and from the layout im assuming at least 8 cells are for ASHM) leaving 16 for SAM.

2. CSOC High performance Frigate: this is a 3500t ship with 8 AShM, 32 cell vls, 21 cell PDMS, 2 front CIWS and 2 anti-sub rocket systems.

3. CSOC Tiger Class: this appears to be the closest design to the news report of possible c28a based frigates. It looks nearly identical with on major difference, a 12 cell vls and the addition of a rear 21 cell pdms. If china is able to make a quad packed missile based on DK-10A, Then this design would be hugely beneficial. Additionally, KSEW has the facilities for it already given c28A is based on F-22P AND tiger class appears to be based on C-28A.

 

[HRK]

Im just wondering where the funding for this will come from?

source of this speculation (Pakistani member of sinodefence) is dubious ....

 

[SQ8]

source of this speculation (Pakistani member of sinodefence) is dubious ....

The biggest issue with all purchases isnt technical considerations which members spend an inordinate amount of time brainstorming but financial issues. We have an economy back in shambles and a federal budget as of yet allocated with efficiency.
Will the current government change anything?
This remains to be seen as they face an uphill battle with just debt servicing. The military is not a large eater of the budget per se but as our budget is still minuscule compared to our requirements. Its not that we cannot afford these weapons through loans but that we may end up in a poistion where we may not be able to even pay the interest on these loans in the coming years which would be disastrous.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The biggest issue with all purchases isnt technical considerations which members spend an inordinate amount of time brainstorming but financial issues. We have an economy back in shambles and a federal budget as of yet allocated with efficiency.
Will the current government change anything?
This remains to be seen as they face an uphill battle with just debt servicing. The military is not a large eater of the budget per se but as our budget is still minuscule compared to our requirements. Its not that we cannot afford these weapons through loans but that we may end up in a poistion where we may not be able to even pay the interest on these loans in the coming years which would be disastrous.

If there's any solace ... at least it isn't PPP + IMF ... so while the budget will be tight, the chances of wholesale plundering and scorched earth should be a little less. OTOH, with rumours of a whopping $12 bn IMF loan, we might end up with empty coffers in the end unless by some miracle the tax-to-GDP ratio is sustainably broadened.

 

[monitor]

If this is true then the design should revolve around 1 of 3 frigate designs offered by CSOC.

#1 and #3 seem the most plausible.

1. CSOC Multi Mission Frigate:The 1500t multimission frigate which has 2 ciws (rear could be replaced by PDMS) and 24 vls cells (and from the layout im assuming at least 8 cells are for ASHM) leaving 16 for SAM.

2. CSOC High performance Frigate: this is a 3500t ship with 8 AShM, 32 cell vls, 21 cell PDMS, 2 front CIWS and 2 anti-sub rocket systems.

3. CSOC Tiger Class: this appears to be the closest design to the news report of possible c28a based frigates. It looks nearly identical with on major difference, a 12 cell vls and the addition of a rear 21 cell pdms. If china is able to make a quad packed missile based on DK-10A, Then this design would be hugely beneficial. Additionally, KSEW has the facilities for it already given c28A is based on F-22P AND tiger class appears to be based on C-28A.

What's the logic of having 12 light frigate when you have 4 type54A 4 type 22P frigate which possibly upgrade in future . its better to have few destroyer with some option of no 2/3 3500 -4000 ton frigate .
future composition could be 3-4 large destroyer 4 type 54A 4 upgraded type 22P and 5-6 3500-4000 ton stealth frigate along with corvettes and fast attack craft .

 

[Tank131]

What's the logic of having 12 light frigate when you have 4 type54A 4 type 22P frigate which possibly upgrade in future . its better to have few destroyer with some option of no 2/3 3500 -4000 ton frigate .
future composition could be 3-4 large destroyer 4 type 54A 4 upgraded type 22P and 5-6 3500-4000 ton stealth frigate along with corvettes and fast attack craft .

I think think cost with respect to flexibility. Having 12 light frigates that are highly flexible and are true multirole (have good anti air/antiship/and anti sub) will allow flexibility for PN and improve numbers. Than concentration all that firepower into 3-4 ships. It allows PN to spread a net so to speak over all of its eez rathers than a few nodes of strength (albeit more potent than any point of the net).

 

[The Accountant]

I think think cost with respect to flexibility. Having 12 light frigates that are highly flexible and are true multirole (have good anti air/antiship/and anti sub) will allow flexibility for PN and improve numbers. Than concentration all that firepower into 3-4 ships. It allows PN to spread a net so to speak over all of its eez rathers than a few nodes of strength (albeit more potent than any point of the net).

But with 4 type 054, 4 F22Ps (already going for upgrades) and Milgem coming there is no need of light frigates ... If we have more funds then we need 2 to 4 destroyers to form a top level air defence for the frigates as well as our 11 subs ...

 

[monitor]

I think think cost with respect to flexibility. Having 12 light frigates that are highly flexible and are true multirole (have good anti air/antiship/and anti sub) will allow flexibility for PN and improve numbers. Than concentration all that firepower into 3-4 ships. It allows PN to spread a net so to speak over all of its eez rathers than a few nodes of strength (albeit more potent than any point of the net).

You have already 8 light to medium weight frigate in inventory and 4 corvette joining so space left for large heavy weight frigates of destroyer such as Type 54D . for replacing and supplement type -22P which lacks proper air defence currently, you can build csoc's option 2/3 or more upgraded version 4000-4500 ton in Pakistan as indigenous frigate as per your wish .

 

[Tank131]

@monitor and @The Accountant

Yes you will have 8 light frigates in F-22P and Ada, theyare really not truely capable multirole platforms that can operate independently in pitched war senario because they are severely limited in anti-air capabilities and likely won't be able to truely independently defend themselves in the setting of war against an saturation style attacks. They are able to be far more effective operating in battle groups with primary anti-air defense provided by Type 054A while these bring additional anti-sub and antiship capabilities to the group along with some of the AIP subs.

If the news is true about 12 light frigates, which i view with great suspicion especially with Pakistan's current financial straights, I think the purpose PN would have is spreading these light ffg out independently throughout the EEZ for for basic antisub capabilities (maybe in conjunction with some UUVs carried onboard) and reasonable antiship and medium ranged air defense (ideally a quad packed missile based on dk-10a) capabilities. A fleet of 12 such vessels would enable the PN to operate something like 8 at a time in open waters, then have 4 battle groups of 1 Type 054A, 1 F-22P and 1 Ada, 2 Azmat along with an AIP sub bringing bigger thunder where/when it is needed... Essentially 4 nodes of heavy capabilities (the battle groups) along with a net of additional 8-12 independently operating light frigates with good air defense, antiship and antisub capabilities, as well as 7 additional AIP subs also operating independently in the water of Pakistan. That give superb net of near impenetrable defense and deterance through the EEZ and would be difficult even for even the best navies in the world (of which IN is among) to safely penetrate without sustaining heavy casualties. Those 12 frigates while, Independently not as potent as a 052c,are collectively extending the networks of PNs air defense and anti sub capabilities across tye entire eez at all times rather than in 3-4 sectors at a time. So your deployment layout looks like below in wartime with:

Red: battlegroup (1 type 054A, 1 F-22P, 1Ada, 1AIP SSK, 2 Azmats)

Blue: Independent AIP SSK

Purple: independent light FFG with 4 others in reserve to guard Karachi and Gwadar.

Now the otyer important thing to recall is that speculation is that China is going for a quad packed missile based on DK-10A. That if equipped on Type 054A and the light FFG would dramatically improve the capability of these vessel in air defense and in Type 054A case, may allow it to reserve 16 cells for longer range SAM like HQ-9, especially if it is coming with the new universal VLS system. That is alot of SAMs at sea protecting the fleet and protectinf ASW aircraft as well as protecting fighter from shore out on Anti shipping missions. Additionally it is a tremendous amount of antisub capacity (especially if you throw in the potential for operating UUVsfrom these ship) making it difficult for any ship, aircraft sub missile to penetrate the defense without a stiff challenge. It will layer the SAM defense (say if each vessel is carrying 50-70km range SAM) so that the fleet csn have redundant protection from other ships operating 50km away.

But this is just essentially a mental exercise because i doubt the veracity of this rumor. I just dont see the cash availability.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think think cost with respect to flexibility. Having 12 light frigates that are highly flexible and are true multirole (have good anti air/antiship/and anti sub) will allow flexibility for PN and improve numbers. Than concentration all that firepower into 3-4 ships. It allows PN to spread a net so to speak over all of its eez rathers than a few nodes of strength (albeit more potent than any point of the net).

Hi,

I would rather have 6 frigates with maximum potency than 12 light units---.

The punching power of 6 heavies is more than 12 light ones---.