Pakistan Navy making efforts to acquire modern warships: Admiral Zakaullah

[Naif al Hilali]

Ah! Be nice to Quwa. He is doing a great job, he collates information from here and has been doing so for what.. 12 years, tries to understand the technical side of everything, comes up with cogent and valid points, and disseminates the Pakistan view to the whole world.

And he does not stay wed to any one point if he gets more information. I found his site in 2016 and learned so much about Pakistan defense that I have it bookmarked. This knowledge has helped me so immensely that I do not come across as an utter fool on this site.

Thanks for your service Bilal (both of you).

Allah guide you and keep you safe.

 

[Penguin]

What difference does it make if we get 15km or 40km SAMs when most aircraft are able to launch anti ship missiles from 100km away?

Distance = reaction time

This can mean the ability to fire more rounds at an incoming missile. Especially important given that supersonic missiles are becoming more prolific: in order to maintain the same reaction time, one needs to first detect and engage farther out. Even with subsonic missiles already, reaction time is often seconds to minutes.

Consider these target speeds:
1000km/h = 278m/s > 10 seconds = 2.78km; 60 seconds = 16.68km (range HQ7 / FM-90N)
2000km/h = 556m/s > 10 seconds = 5.56km; 60 seconds = 33.36km (range 9M317ME of Shtil-1 aka SA-N-12)

We are talkimg about frigates not FAC. If you see that MILGEM-G is 3000t class frigate with 16 vls cells and a rear missile based ciws. Turkey will likely field it with quad packed ESSM (64 medium range missiles) and up to 24 short range with a RAM Launcher in the rear. Those are not likely options for PN, so alternatives for RAM are an 8-24 cell FL3000N Launcher in rear. Instead of ESSM options are CAMM (60km quad pack), K-SAAM (40km quad packed), a variant of DK10A (50km hopefully quad packed), Hisar-O (40km unlikely quad-packable) and Umkhonto-ir (35km? Quad-packable)

I don't see why a F22P variant could carry at least 1, and maybe 2 Mk41 or equivalent Sylver forward. Or 2 Chinese VLSs (see modifications being done to Chinese 956Es as we speak). At least 16 but potentially up to 64 missiles can be carrier (several quadpackable options are CAMM, VT1, ESSM, RAM block 2. Don't see why some missiles could not be duo packed like Mk48 / ESSM).

Similar size Aussi ANZACs come with 2x8 Mk41 and ESSM.

 

[Tank131]

I don't see why a F22P variant could carry at least 1, and maybe 2 Mk41 or equivalent Sylver forward. Or 2 Chinese VLSs (see modifications being done to Chinese 956Es as we speak). At least 16 but potentially up to 64 missiles can be carrier (several quadpackable options are CAMM, VT1, ESSM, RAM block 2. Don't see why some missiles could not be duo packed like Mk48 / ESSM).

Similar size Aussi ANZACs come with 2x8 Mk41 and ESSM

I think that would be a reasonable option and i have proposee it in the past given KS&EW have the setup for F-22p and making a variant of C28 (itself an F-22p variant) wouldnt be difficult. That being said, I haven't heard that being an option. Maybe the weight distribution of the ship would be thrown off, its all just speculation at this point. It seems the only major designs being discussed are MILGEM/MILGEM-G, and Type 057 design.

As far as missile options, as you said, range equals reaction time. VT-1, Umkhonto-ir/eir, and RAM2 (which i think politically wont be an option), dont have enough range. The dual pack is reasonable but again u need the right missile. I think id rather have range in a vls missile and would make up numbers withan fl3000n if necessary.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think that would be a reasonable option and i have proposee it in the past given KS&EW have the setup for F-22p and making a variant of C28 (itself an F-22p variant) wouldnt be difficult. That being said, I haven't heard that being an option. Maybe the weight distribution of the ship would be thrown off, its all just speculation at this point. It seems the only major designs being discussed are MILGEM/MILGEM-G, and Type 057 design.

As far as missile options, as you said, range equals reaction time. VT-1, Umkhonto-ir/eir, and RAM2 (which i think politically wont be an option), dont have enough range. The dual pack is reasonable but again u need the right missile. I think id rather have range in a vls missile and would make up numbers withan fl3000n if necessary.

The Royal Thai Navy Naresuan-class is the tangible example of how the Type 053H3 platform can take on at least one Mk.41 VLS (for 32 ESSMs). It's clearly possible, but it seems CSOC is trying to push clean sheet designs to those interested in onboard VLS. In 2013, CSOC offered a Type 054 derivative in the form of the 'High Performance Frigate', and in IDEAS 2016, we saw the 'Type 057.'

 

[YeBeWarned]

In 2013, CSOC offered a Type 054 derivative in the form of the 'High Performance Frigate',

Anything happened to that Offer ? i mean Type 54A's are very nice and Potent Frigates with VLS and much more .. would be a good option for PN than why they are hesitant to buy or lease them ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Anything happened to that Offer ? i mean Type 54A's are very nice and Potent Frigates with VLS and much more .. would be a good option for PN than why they are hesitant to buy or lease them ?

Pakistan's financial situation in 2013 was particularly dire. The PN is able to pursue a few programs now because the spending power is better.

 

[Penguin]

I think that would be a reasonable option and i have proposee it in the past given KS&EW have the setup for F-22p and making a variant of C28 (itself an F-22p variant) wouldnt be difficult. That being said, I haven't heard that being an option. Maybe the weight distribution of the ship would be thrown off, its all just speculation at this point. It seems the only major designs being discussed are MILGEM/MILGEM-G, and Type 057 design.

As far as missile options, as you said, range equals reaction time. VT-1, Umkhonto-ir/eir, and RAM2 (which i think politically wont be an option), dont have enough range. The dual pack is reasonable but again u need the right missile. I think id rather have range in a vls missile and would make up numbers withan fl3000n if necessary.

Operational range
20 km (12 mi)(Umkhonto-IR)
30+ km (19 mi) (Umkhonto-ER-IR)
60+ km (37 mi)(Umkhonto-R)
That's 'at least' 30 or 60km

RAM block 2 gives 2.5x the range of the original missile, which was 9km (22.5km). I take this to mean 'max. effective range' rather than 'max range'. The increase in range is achieved much in the same way as that of Umkhonto-ER-IR over Umkhonto-IR, and SPADA/ASPIDE 2000 over the original SPADA/ASPIDE: fatter, more capably rocket motor.

The active radar homing CAMM has a stated maximum range of 'greater than 25 km', but IHS Jane's has reported that trials have a shown a capability of up to 60 km.

Then there is IRIS-T SLS (25+km) and IRIS-T-SLM (40km)

The Royal Thai Navy Naresuan-class is the tangible example of how the Type 053H3 platform can take on at least one Mk.41 VLS (for 32 ESSMs). It's clearly possible, but it seems CSOC is trying to push clean sheet designs to those interested in onboard VLS. In 2013, CSOC offered a Type 054 derivative in the form of the 'High Performance Frigate', and in IDEAS 2016, we saw the 'Type 057.'

C28A

Chinese projec 956E modernization: replacement of forward single rail launcher for Shtil with 2x8-cell VLS and FL-3000N.

This VLS probably does not take up more than the 3 decks of the original rail launcher (although a depth of 4 decks could possibly be accommodated)

http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=176.1080

 

[Basel]

I would recommend Type 52D so that Kolkata class may have a worthy opponent.

Those will be burden on PN in current financial matters, PN needs to increase capabilities, size & tonnage step by step.

 

[Penguin]

Type 051B

Refitted Type 051B (4x 8-cell vls installed forward)

This conversion, in which HQ-7 launcher plus reloading mechanism is replaced by 4 VLS, suggests that it would be possible to replace HQ7 launcher as found on F22P and C28A could be replaced by 2x 8-cell VLS. At least as far as deck footprint is concerned. Critical factor would be whether these two designs have sufficient depth available for a pair of VLS (i.e. 3 decks)

Needed also would be 2 radar illuminators.

 

[Penguin]

Jiangwei II (Type 053H3) modernization

The least one could do on F22P if HQ7 is taken off is to install HQ-10 launcher with more than 8 rounds. Possibly the regular 7-barrel or the beefier 10-barrel 30mm CIWS (both with independent on-mount fire control radar and electro-optronics)

E.g. 15 round launcher

Or 18 round launcher

"type 730"

"type 1030"

All depending on space and weight limits.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Salute to Admiral Zakullah, True stand up guy.

He has greatly expanded the importance and role of the Navy under his Command.

 

[Penguin]

Taking this C28A as baseline, with maybe a small hull plug forward of the bridge and amidships where the AShMs are, you could have a HQ-10 launcher and a pair of 8-call HQ16 launchers forward, and more (possibly also larger i.e. fatter and longer) AShMs amidships.

Or, even without hull stretch, 2x 8-cell VLS for HQ16 forward, a HQ10 launcher (with more than 8 rounds) atop the hangar and on or two pair of H/PJ15-1-30 or H/PJ17 single barrel 30mm left and right. Or even a single 8-cell for HQ16 with 1 radar illuminator and a 8-round FL3000N with 2 single 3mm.

Could well work on F22P also

One can also make 2 specialized versions using the same hull e.g. a GP/ASW ship and an AAW ship. For example the Dutch S- and L-frigates (S=Standaard=Standard, L=Luchtverdediging=AirDefence).

S-frigate (Kortenaer class)

German S-frigate variant (F123 Bremen class)

L-frigate (Jacob van Heemskerck class)

You could have an F22p or C28A AAW variant without helicopter capability but with e.g. a HQ-10 launcher and 76mm gun forward, antiship missiles and 324mm torpedo tubes amidships, and 4x 8-cell VLS/HQ16 and the pair of 30mm CIWS guns in the rear. Maybe throw in a pair of single 30mm cannon and some pedestal mounted Stingers or QW-series manpads (Turkish mounts) for good measure. Maybe even a small heli/vertrep spot.

 

[faaiq Sheikh]

Pakistan Navy remained proactive in welfare oriented projects: CM Balochistan
KARACHI: The Chief Minister Balochistan, Nawab Sanaullah Zehri has lauded Pakistan Navy for establishing Cadet College at Ormara and said that beside commitment to safeguarding the sea frontier of the motherland, PN has always remained proactive in welfare oriented projects.

He expressed these views while addressing as Chief Guest at the first Parent's day of Cadet College Ormara held on Saturday, said a PN statement.

He added that from providing hospitals and medical facilities in Balochistan to provisioning of quality education through a network of schools and colleges stretching along the coastal belt of Makran, PN has dedicated itself for the service of the countrymen.

He further highlighted that in the wake of China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) the importance of college in this area has increased manifolds and he can foresee the college converting into a centre of educational excellence on national level, the credit goes to the parents for reposing confidence in CCO and trusting them to shape the future of their children.

Earlier in his address, the Principal Cadet College Ormara Commodore Masood Ul Hasan thanked the Chief Minister and the parents for coming long way and gracing the occasion.

He highlighted that the college produced 100% result in the board exams held under Federal Board and the college has also earned laurels in various extra and co- curricular activities.

The event was followed by cadets PT, gymnastic, martial arts, rifle drill and science exhibition. The hallmark of the event was the unique way of welcoming the guests through traditional naval semaphore flag signaling.

The event was attended by a large number of government officials, service and personnel parents.

Various performances of Cadets on traditional military band added colour to the ceremony and received standing ovation from the audience.

 

[Surya 1]

Those will be burden on PN in current financial matters, PN needs to increase capabilities, size & tonnage step by step.

If I were a decision maker in PN, I would go for french submarines only.

 

[Khafee]

If I were a decision maker in PN, I would go for french submarines only.

Thank the Lord for his infinite mercies, that you are NOT!