Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

[MastanKhan]

Firstly I'd like to extend thanks to @MastanKhan for starting this thread. If nothing else it has allowed for debate and an exchange of ideas rarely seen here nowadays.

Being in Britain my thoughts on the submarine deal here are in comparison to the Royal Navy's acquisitions notably the Dreadnought class submarines that are being considered for service to replace the Vanguard Class which carries Britains nuclear deterrent.

Costs with that program when broken down are £11 to £14 billion just for the four submarines alone. Also £2 to £3 billion for the cost of infrastructure over the lifetime of the submarines.

If Pakistan is getting 8 subs for $5 billion with all associated costs then it seems to be a good deal. Late maybe as you've discussed in the initial post but better late than not at all surely.

Hi,

5 Billion dollars for 8 subs is a great deal---no doubt about that---. But we could also have done it in 2 tranches of 2 1/2 billions each---and set aside 2 1/2 billions each for naval ship and air fleet---in 2 tranches as well.

At the end---of 10 years time---we would have the same number---ie 8 subs that we needed---plus we would have full naval wing and a complimentary surface fleet as well.

So---basically---first 5 billion dollars would have included 4 subs in 5 years---naval ships and naval strike aircrat---then another similar 5 billion deal at the beging of the 5 years term.

 

[JK!]

My impression of the Pakistan Navy is that it has always been the ugly step child in the 3 armed services of Pakistan.

It's never received the investment it's needed and based on your above reply it sure looks like all the eggs they get are going in one basket.

Given Gwadar port becoming operational my thoughts are that they're going to build the navy up eventually. They've got to given that soon a lot of merchant shipping will be coming through Pakistani waters. Given the history of piracy in the Indian Ocean and with multiple task forces from different nations patrolling the seas their workload has gone up ten fold.

I can't see them not considering the bigger picture as that would be complacency of the highest order. I believe the subs are a start along with building up the coastal maritime protection capabailities. The navy has recently completed a tanker ship for service and you don't induct a ship like that unless you intend to provide support to other ships.

In a nutshell part one is subs and maritime patrol capabilities. Part two would be adding to the surface fleet and naval air wing.

 

[MastanKhan]

My impression of the Pakistan Navy is that it has always been the ugly step child in the 3 armed services of Pakistan.

It's never received the investment it's needed and based on your above reply it sure looks like all the eggs they get are going in one basket.

Given Gwadar port becoming operational my thoughts are that they're going to build the navy up eventually. They've got to given that soon a lot of merchant shipping will be coming through Pakistani waters. Given the history of piracy in the Indian Ocean and with multiple task forces from different nations patrolling the seas their workload has gone up ten fold.

I can't see them not considering the bigger picture as that would be complacency of the highest order. I believe the subs are a start along with building up the coastal maritime protection capabailities. The navy has recently completed a tanker ship for service and you don't induct a ship like that unless you intend to provide support to other ships.

In a nutshell part one is subs and maritime patrol capabilities. Part two would be adding to the surface fleet and naval air wing.

Hi,

The gwadar port defense preparedness has be lackadaisical---and if the indian sub was not caught---nothing would have changed---.

This should have been thought of years ago and implemented then---but then that would reflect who pakistan really is---.

The first priority should be heavy naval air strike capability---if you have that---then you can work freely in your region.

Subs without complimentary assets that can keep an eye on the arena do not give the best buck for the bang.

 

[waz]

There is a great deal of unknown here, which clouds the debate. I guess it's a matter of waiting. It would be good to see Pakistan pursue the 214 order again, maybe 3 submarines.

 

[khansaheeb]

well! this car seller is still much better than you and me.. He is taking country's security more seriously and with logical conclusion, not like some blind patriots..

He might have no idea deeply about the systems and weapons but he might be good strategic planner..

as for as PN planners they are babos in the Armed forces.. they just visit countries and do some personal shopping on the expenses of taxpayers, finish their terms and get retired from active service to start their corporate businesses.

PN was never good in their planning and lobbying.. they just simply wait idle until somebody from airforce or army say them buy something for yourself..

It's good to have some sort of transparency and accountability to the people who pay for it. How about a decent rationale for consumption and to reduce dissent? We know what one of our previous illustrious admiral was up to don't we?

 

[New World]

We know what one of our previous illustrious admiral was up to don't we?

the one who was made NAB chairmen?

 

[Naif al Hilali]

@MastanKhan @Khafee @Naif al Hilali @Sarge @Oscar @Horus @Zarvan @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Windjammer

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Thanks bro. I believe you can only tag up to five people at a time - moderators should be able to tell you the exact number. Most people here probably did not get your tag.

 

[fanna4paf2]

 

[Naif al Hilali]

I have been on this board and seen these shenanigans since 2006. It is always easy to assess people on the basis of a retrospectoscope and malign them. No one wants to see the real picture and the bigger designs of the powers that be for the region, be it in the light of events coming to pass and their significance or the light of the ahadeeth of our beloved Prophet SAW regarding the end of times.
That we have corruption galore is a given. That that it taints some of the deals which are made by the armed forces granted without candour or reservations.
The man who did not listen to Zardari risked the welfare of his familyand did not alter the financial side and had the ignonimity of a corrupt woman telling him to get out when he was discharged from his duties and reached the head office was told by his senior, you should have done it, we would all have eaten out of the money. Can someone imagine what he might have felt. But life goes on.
Where the OP fails to understand is the fact that the man himself and another very senior AF man who spent his life post retirement in Lockmart told him the deal would have been too expensive.
So we have a constant barrage of negative rhetoric against the forces based on presumed failure of various key decisions without looking at the prevailing circumstances and the fact that all said and done the force still has people who day in and day out stand against corruption inspite of threats to their career and even life.
As you have pointed out no one but the high ups in the navy and a few chosen ones know the details of what is involved. @Rashid Mahmood is Ex PN and he remains quiter than a mouse on the forum while the OP can venture an opinion!!Subhan Allah to that.
And so the show will go on like it has over the last decade with a lifetime of frustrations being brought out in the form of allegations of wrong doings and how people have no idea but our OP armed with books of fiction which he derives his knowledge from knows all. His band of merry men follow his twists and turns and his jumbled" analyses" of doom and gloom and rampant corruption like the gospel witout relizing that behind the scene people are dying to safeguard the very secrets they want unfolded on tabloids to satisfy their puny egos. And then they will still go on and pontificate as if the sun shines out of their rear end. So all salute to stupidity for only a stupid person says he knows best.I on the other hand know nothing .
A

---

تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي بِيَدِهِ الْمُلْكُ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ​

Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent -

الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْمَوْتَ وَالْحَيَاةَ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ أَيُّكُمْ أَحْسَنُ عَمَلًا ۚ وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفُورُ​

[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -
---

لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا ۚ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ ۗ رَبَّنَا لَا تُؤَاخِذْنَا إِن نَّسِينَا أَوْ أَخْطَأْنَا ۚ رَبَّنَا وَلَا تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْنَا إِصْرًا كَمَا حَمَلْتَهُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِنَا ۚ رَبَّنَا وَلَا تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لَا طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ ۖ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا ۚ أَنتَ مَوْلَانَا فَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ​

Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."
---

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لَا تُفْسِدُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ​

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

أَلَا إِنَّهُمْ هُمُ الْمُفْسِدُونَ وَلَٰكِن لَّا يَشْعُرُونَ​

Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.
---

وَإِذَا مَسَّ الْإِنسَانَ الضُّرُّ دَعَانَا لِجَنبِهِ أَوْ قَاعِدًا أَوْ قَائِمًا فَلَمَّا كَشَفْنَا عَنْهُ ضُرَّهُ مَرَّ كَأَن لَّمْ يَدْعُنَا إِلَىٰ ضُرٍّ مَّسَّهُ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِلْمُسْرِفِينَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ​

And when affliction touches man, he calls upon Us, whether lying on his side or sitting or standing; but when We remove from him his affliction, he continues [in disobedience] as if he had never called upon Us to [remove] an affliction that touched him. Thus is made pleasing to the transgressors that which they have been doing
https://quran.com/10:13

وَلَقَدْ أَهْلَكْنَا الْقُرُونَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَمَّا ظَلَمُوا ۙ وَجَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُهُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَمَا كَانُوا لِيُؤْمِنُوا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْقَوْمَ الْمُجْرِمِينَ​

And We had already destroyed generations before you when they wronged, and their messengers had come to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe. Thus do We recompense the criminal people

وَإِذَا تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ ۙ قَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا ائْتِ بِقُرْآنٍ غَيْرِ هَٰذَا أَوْ بَدِّلْهُ ۚ قُلْ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ
أُبَدِّلَهُ مِن تِلْقَاءِ نَفْسِي ۖ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ ۖ إِنِّي أَخَافُ إِنْ عَصَيْتُ رَبِّي عَذَابَ يَوْمٍ عَظِيمٍ​

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, [O Muhammad], "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
---

وَمَا كَانَ النَّاسُ إِلَّا أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَاخْتَلَفُوا ۚ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةٌ سَبَقَتْ مِن رَّبِّكَ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ فِيمَا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُون​

And mankind was not but one community [united in religion], but [then] they differed. And if not for a word that preceded from your Lord, it would have been judged between them [immediately] concerning that over which they differ.

وَيَقُولُونَ لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۖ فَقُلْ إِنَّمَا الْغَيْبُ لِلَّهِ فَانتَظِرُوا إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ​

And they say, "Why is a sign not sent down to him from his Lord?" So say, "The unseen is only for Allah [to administer], so wait; indeed, I am with you among those who wait."

وَإِذَا أَذَقْنَا النَّاسَ رَحْمَةً مِّن بَعْدِ ضَرَّاءَ مَسَّتْهُمْ إِذَا لَهُم مَّكْرٌ فِي آيَاتِنَا ۚ قُلِ اللَّهُ أَسْرَعُ مَكْرًا ۚ إِنَّ رُسُلَنَا يَكْتُبُونَ مَا تَمْكُرُون​

And when We give the people a taste of mercy after adversity has touched them, at once they conspire against Our verses. Say, " Allah is swifter in strategy." Indeed, Our messengers record that which you conspire

هُوَ الَّذِي يُسَيِّرُكُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ ۖ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا كُنتُمْ فِي الْفُلْكِ وَجَرَيْنَ بِهِم بِرِيحٍ طَيِّبَةٍ وَفَرِحُوا بِهَا جَاءَتْهَا رِيحٌ عَاصِفٌ وَجَاءَهُمُ الْمَوْجُ مِن كُلِّ مَكَانٍ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُمْ أُحِيطَ بِهِمْ ۙ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ لَئِنْ أَنجَيْتَنَا مِنْ هَٰذِهِ لَنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الشَّاكِرِينَ​

It is He who enables you to travel on land and sea until, when you are in ships and they sail with them by a good wind and they rejoice therein, there comes a storm wind and the waves come upon them from everywhere and they assume that they are surrounded, supplicating Allah , sincere to Him in religion, "If You should save us from this, we will surely be among the thankful."

فَلَمَّا أَنجَاهُمْ إِذَا هُمْ يَبْغُونَ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ ۗ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّمَا بَغْيُكُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِكُم ۖ مَّتَاعَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيْنَا مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَنُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ​

But when He saves them, at once they commit injustice upon the earth without right. O mankind, your injustice is only against yourselves, [being merely] the enjoyment of worldly life. Then to Us is your return, and We will inform you of what you used to do.

إِنَّمَا مَثَلُ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا كَمَاءٍ أَنزَلْنَاهُ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَاخْتَلَطَ بِهِ نَبَاتُ الْأَرْضِ مِمَّا يَأْكُلُ النَّاسُ وَالْأَنْعَامُ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَخَذَتِ الْأَرْضُ زُخْرُفَهَا وَازَّيَّنَتْ وَظَنَّ أَهْلُهَا أَنَّهُمْ قَادِرُونَ عَلَيْهَا أَتَاهَا أَمْرُنَا لَيْلًا أَوْ نَهَارًا فَجَعَلْنَاهَا حَصِيدًا كَأَن لَّمْ تَغْنَ بِالْأَمْسِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ نُفَصِّلُ الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ​

The example of [this] worldly life is but like rain which We have sent down from the sky that the plants of the earth absorb - [those] from which men and livestock eat - until, when the earth has taken on its adornment and is beautified and its people suppose that they have capability over it, there comes to it Our command by night or by day, and We make it as a harvest, as if it had not flourished yesterday. Thus do We explain in detail the signs for a people who give thought.
https://quran.com/10:25

لِّلَّذِينَ أَحْسَنُوا الْحُسْنَىٰ وَزِيَادَةٌ ۖ وَلَا يَرْهَقُ وُجُوهَهُمْ قَتَرٌ وَلَا ذِلَّةٌ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ الْجَنَّةِ ۖ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ​

For them who have done good is the best [reward] and extra. No darkness will cover their faces, nor humiliation. Those are companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally

وَالَّذِينَ كَسَبُوا السَّيِّئَاتِ جَزَاءُ سَيِّئَةٍ بِمِثْلِهَا وَتَرْهَقُهُمْ ذِلَّةٌ ۖ مَّا لَهُم مِّنَ اللَّهِ مِنْ عَاصِمٍ ۖ كَأَنَّمَا أُغْشِيَتْ وُجُوهُهُمْ قِطَعًا مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ مُظْلِمًا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ النَّارِ ۖ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ​

But they who have earned [blame for] evil doings - the recompense of an evil deed is its equivalent, and humiliation will cover them. They will have from Allah no protector. It will be as if their faces are covered with pieces of the night - so dark [are they]. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.

وَيَوْمَ نَحْشُرُهُمْ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ نَقُولُ لِلَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا مَكَانَكُمْ أَنتُمْ وَشُرَكَاؤُكُمْ ۚ فَزَيَّلْنَا بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ وَقَالَ شُرَكَاؤُهُم مَّا كُنتُمْ إِيَّانَا تَعْبُدُونَ​

And [mention, O Muhammad], the Day We will gather them all together - then We will say to those who associated others with Allah , "[Remain in] your place, you and your 'partners.' " Then We will separate them, and their "partners" will say, "You did not used to worship us,

هُنَالِكَ تَبْلُو كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَّا أَسْلَفَتْ ۚ وَرُدُّوا إِلَى اللَّهِ مَوْلَاهُمُ الْحَقِّ ۖ وَضَلَّ عَنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا يَفْتَرُونَ​

There, [on that Day], every soul will be put to trial for what it did previously, and they will be returned to Allah , their master, the Truth, and lost from them is whatever they used to invent.
---

كُلُّ مَنْ عَلَيْهَا فَانٍ​

Everyone upon the earth will perish,

وَيَبْقَىٰ وَجْهُ رَبِّكَ ذُو الْجَلَالِ وَالْإِكْرَامِ​

And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor.
---

 

[MastanKhan]

The Same Elitist Mindset that our military had since independance--the real cause of our misfortunes.
Civilians damned civilians stay away from talking about the GODS of Pakistan!

Hi,

Because most of the civilians have no clue about weapons or weapons systems.

 

[Rain]

Hi

Hi,

Because most of the civilians have no clue about weapons or weapons systems.

The word most Saves you from ire!

 

[Mentee]

@araz with all due respect you should surrender this positive rating privilege asap. I can copy paste the whole Qur'an Majeed with Urdu translation , would you give me a + rating then?
Why are we doing this to each other?

 

[ghazi768]

@araz with all due respect you should surrender this positive rating privilege asap. I can copy paste the whole Qur'an Majeed with Urdu translation , would you give me a + rating then?
Why are we doing this to each other?

I agree with you that this is a defence discussions forum and it is better to keep religion out of here but after your raising objection I felt duty bound to thank his post, apologies.

 

[CriticalThought]

I agree with you that this is a defence discussions forum and it is better to keep religion out of here but after your raising objection I felt duty bound to thank his post, apologies.

Ummmm I kinda missed the context of his post. As in, how is it related to the thread?

 

[araz]

@araz with all due respect you should surrender this positive rating privilege asap. I can copy paste the whole Qur'an Majeed with Urdu translation , would you give me a + rating then?
Why are we doing this to each other?

It was not the Quran but the message behind it which I saluted. There is a lot more to just putting random ayats of the Quran. What the OP did was quoted from the Quran to pass on a message and a whole set of feelings. Alhamdolillah Allah has given me hidaya and a little understanding of the Quran.
I can go on and on about the interpretation of ayats in the light of the teachings of Salaf As Sleh and the sahaba e karaam RA but then again it would be going off the track. So lets get back to the topic at hand.
A