Pakistan & ISRAEL, a possibly close Relationship?

[somebozo]

The core of debate is should Pakistan forge relations with Israel according to its independent foreign policy and strategic needs. NOT should Pakistan take sides in Arab vs Israel or sacrifice its interests in the light of proving its Arab-Brotherhood.

 

[somebozo]

Okay, I get you guys but it seems the culture of Najd is somewhat different from Western (hijaz) part of Arabia. It's sparsely populated as well.

I have heard about some of my friends who have toured Saudi Arabia and they all say Saudi is very modernised and developed. So, I get a feeling that when people stereotype the Arabs as backward, they actually refer to this sparsely inhabited part of Arabia. The kind of stereotyping which is very unfair to Saudi Arabia as a country.

Indeed it is very modernism and developed with world class infrastructure but as with any political and cultural debate, the emphasis melts down to ideological principles.

Does Saudi Arabia have a vibrant culture based on equality, tolerance and right? NO.
Does Saudi Arabia have law to protect all genders and minorities to guarantee equality? NO
Is Saudi culture capable of making a positive influence abroad? NO - unless you count beards and abays as positive influence.

Unfortunately the state backed clergy is a protector of medieval backwardism in the name of preserving Arab culture and way of life. The effects are for all to see everywhere.

Also it is worth noting that Yemen is a concentration of Semitic Arabs which are different than traditional Central Arabian inhabitant. The Semitic people and inhabitants of Levants whether Muslims, Jews or Arabized-Subjects have a great history of arts, culture, science and accomplishments.

 

[Chak Bamu]

What Pakistan have gained from @$$ licking of arabs instead they are fighting their proxy wars in Pakistan, considering them and India factor i support some sort of relationship with Israel to balance the equation.

My friend, nobody licks anything in Pakistan. The situation we find ourselves in is the result of a series of military dictatorships and corrupt & weak civilian governments in Pakistan. If we had a bit of oil, we would be in a far different situation. Having said that, let me address the major concern that you have brought.

Let me start with an example. After the first Gulf war in '90s, small emirate of Qatar was in a vulnerable position. The aged Emir would not consent to establishment of a US base. The Emir's son felt encouraged to overthrow his father. Soon thereafter Saudis assumed a threatening posture to show their disapproval. Thereafter the new Emir having just put down an attempt of a counter-coup and feeling very jittery invited US government to construct a military base. Today Qatar is the biggest US lackey in the Gulf. Its foreign policy reflects its status as a US proxy. Most allied of the allies, if you will.

If you look at inter-government relations as short-sighted personal relations, then things would not quite make much sense. Strategic moves get played out in years and decades.

Coming back to the regional situation, the main driver of instability in part of ME closest to us has been the Iranian revolution, its aftermath, the far-reaching decisions of its players, and their ambition to export their revolutionary ideology. We have seen four hot wars and one cold war as a result. I know the Iran and Arab angle in Pakistan's current problems. But that can not be an excuse for making our situation more complicated. Things are bad enough as it is. We need not make it worse just so we can 'get back' at Arabs. Next time you have an urge to complain about licking of this and that and suggest a vindictive course of action, know that strategists are thinking two steps ahead already.

Let me also question the wisdom of rushing to make relations with Israel to get back at Arabs and to create some sort of problem (not gonna happen) for India. It would be far better to improve relations with India the smart way.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Back on Topic:

Malaysia and Israel have similar relations, Malaysia doesnt recognized Israel but it has trade in the millions.

What make people are forgetting is that you dont need to recognize a State to trade.

There are many "Made in Jordan" products that are Israeli but are floating around in Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to stop a$$ kissing arabs and establish an independent path. If you want to boycott Israel I suggest you throw out every electronic, medical/surgical thing you have.

Everything from Apps on your iPhone (I hope you you guys dont have one) or Samsung, TVs, cleaning materials, to the hospital equipment is somehow related to Israel. An Israeli invented a better way to treat battlefield wounds (Emergency Bandaid), why is Pakistan using it?

Stop being hypocrites.

 

[Chak Bamu]

ideological enslavement is worst than armed colonialism!

Defence of Israel by employing fascist rhetoric is even worse. Ideological enslavement and fascist rhetoric put together makes the unique marker that is specifically yours. If you are a Pakistani, why would you be employing Zionist rhetoric? Is that not ideological slavery? All your arguments are rehashed rubbish employed by Zionist defenders of Israeli apartheid found everywhere on internet where Israel's indefensible policies are discussed.

The most remarkable feature of the political life of Arabia before Islam was the total absence ...... In many cases, the Arabs fought for the sake of fighting, whether or not there was a cause belli.

You made a specific assertion "The polytheistic Arabs were largely at throat of each other to prove whose god was superior. " I questioned this assertion and asked you to prove it. You instead wrote a multi-paragraph diatribe which is worthless in the context of defending your assertion. You can not come up with a single solid reference. You just said something to denigrate Arabs and have nothing to validate what you said. I just wanted to expose your shortcoming. I believe I have done that.

And what was everyone speaking before that? Your assertions are based on teenager ideologies of Islam and Ummah fanaticism! Let me question you the alternative side. Why was Persian exodus into India was created upon the advent of Islam? Or the Assyrians of Levant traditionally known for their knowledge and innovation for 4000 years choose to flee rather than surrender to the Arab religion?

Just like your indefensible assertion addressed earlier, this too is your attempt to wriggle out of answering questions arising out of another of your unfounded assertion: "In last 5000 years history of Arabia not a single achievement has emerged in any of the branches of human intellect known to mankind". Try again if you will please. While you are at it, do try to focus on producing a relevant answer instead of an attempt to smear the questioner. You have an obligation to defend an assertion with hard facts. I have pointed to some Arab achievements, but you have gone on a tangent to avoid a direct answer.

May be instead of ranting you can come up with factual debate because that would be helpful. Losers usually resort to accusations, ranting, name calling and all the negative traits one can expect on PDF.

This is your fifth paragraph without any attempt to clarify how you can make indefensible assertions. If that is not ranting, then what is? Pointing to similarities of your rhetoric with that of Zionists is not name calling.

A masters from Madrassah is not going to help you in your research. A deeper look into Roman, Persian and Semitic mythologies will reveal how much Islam has copied from these civilizations - especially Romans and Persians none of which are Abrahimic. Once again your frustated out-burst over nothing rather than a factual debate.

I have read enough to be able to at least understand if you were to present a coherent case to support your assertions. What you are saying above is a set of assertions curiously reminiscent of rhetoric Daniel Pipes employs to denigrate Arabs and Muslims.

BTW, the 'madrassah' you speak of is actually a top ranked U.S. university, not some yeshivot in a god-forsaken kibbutz atop a hill in occupied Palestinian territory.

Like any imperial religion, Islamic history is very much doctored but beside that translation does not equal innovation. And Much of the Islamic golden age was the work of Persians, Egyptians, Central Asians and Assyrian converts. Had there been an indigenous Arab scientific & cultural spring then we should have seen the results of it as a subsequent civilization. Rather, Arabs remain one of the most backward and undeveloped people on earth with a culture more austere than Ethiopia and Somalia. The mongol sacking of Baghdad proved how stupid the Khalifah and his ruling elite as well as the subject were.

Again another outburst devoid of logic or facts. Why should anyone take your claims seriously? Thus far you have made allegations, assertions, paragraph upon paragraph of hate-speak against Arabs. I have raised questions about these and you resort to a repeat of the same allegations in slightly different format with a few different words. Do you plan on repeating yourself ad nauseum until others stop questioning you and leave you and your lengthy diatribes alone?

A debate with civility, fact, figures and references will be appreciated. Emotional outburst and defensive rampage will earn you some ridiculous nick name.

You require me to come up with facts and figures? I am just questioning your assertions. You should be the one to come up with facts and figures to support your unfounded claims. I also wish to know what entitles you to assume a 'right' to employ hate-speech against a people? You should be the one bringing references to support your ideas, not me. Is it wrong to question? Or is it wrong to question only you?

The most anyone might call me is some bozo. But that name is already taken by yourself.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The idea deserves to be mocked when you observe the clandestine dealings of Arabs with Israel itself. The pan-islamist clerics of subcontinent propagated a highly manipulated and stupid form of pan-Islamism in the society. Reality is that the khalifas in Ankara could give little fuq about bunch of Indian Muslims under British crown-ship. The Ottoman empire has long been dissolved and even the country of its origin has moved forward with ideals of modern state building therefore we look every bit stupid to take sides with non-existent legacies today. Pakistan is not the inheritor of Ottoman Empire but many of our pan-islamist clerics will have you believe otherwise.

I had made a post in response to @King Solomon just to clarify a few things. It was not intended for you, but since you can not let others well alone, so be it.

I would like to know the extent of clandestine dealings of Arabs with Israel. The last time I checked a good while back, the man & wife team that manned the lone 'trade office' in Qatar was basically unemployed. The only tangible result of their being there was the birth of an Israeli baby (a first in Qatar it seems) in an Arab country.

I would really like to know the extent of this 'clandestine activity' that you speak of. Really I mean it. Can you furnish anything that rivals, say, the relations that Egypt and Saudi Arabia have? Or may be the dealings between UAE and Saudi Arabia / Qatar / Egypt / Yemen? Pakistanis have the ability to talk to Israelis through intermediaries if they so wish. But there is no over-riding concern that may want us to do so. Why bother?

You are wrong again; and this time about clerics and Pan-Islamism. There was in fact just ONE name among many others who was a cleric. But his being a Pan-Islamist had nothing to do with his being a cleric.

The Khalifa lived in Ankara? He did not give a (what you call) 'fuq' about a bunch of Indian Muslims living under British crownship? May I ask you how can you say this much? In fact Ottoman Sultans did care enough to ask the British to go easy on Muslims of India, especially after 1857. The results were tangible in that it resulted in reduction of fines and indemnity imposed by the British upon some districts - but it is a forgotten peice of History and not many people know it.

Street intellectuals drawing parallels to print in shallow grade publications has no impact on ground realities. Even a basic internet search will reveal what was apartheid South Afria like.

May I suggest that Defenders of Israeli apartheid do not get much respect these days and they are mainly on the defensive for the foreseeable future. That is an increasingly clear ground reality. Worry about that rather than what 'Street Intellectuals' have to say in 'shallow grade' publications.

Enough well-respected people call Israel an Apartheid society for me to use the label of Apartheid society for Israel without worrying about being contradicted. What is your problem with that? Your profile just shows you as a Pakistani living in Saudi Arabia? Why would you be raising objections about calling Israel an Apartheid society? How is your sensibility disturbed?

Other than the usual propaganda blabber I do not see anything of value coming out of this post.

Then you might well have left it alone. If my post was jsut propaganda blabber, why give it attention? Why dignify with a response, especially since it was made to clarify points raised by another poster? Could it be that you just have to defend Israel no matter what and no matter how?

Perhaps some logical reasoning can help. Why do majority Pakistani's have warm feelings for Arabs? Just because a million or two have employment in the Gulf? That would translate as a cheap sell out. Strategic interests and FO policy is made on long terms goals, sane minded approach and analytic thinking - not emotionalism and religion.

Majority Pakistanis have warm feelings for Arabs not because of 'a million or two have employment' in the Gulf. In fact this works against Arabs in a number of ways. The reasons are pretty easy to guess, but why bother explaining them to you.

Our policy is framed with long term goals and all the rest that you say it should be based upon. You just are not able to articulate the reasoning to yourself or are unwilling to do so.

 

[King Solomon]

I would've replied to your post, @Chak Bamu, but the repeated emotional outbursts of "apartheid" makes me cautious. Whenever I see someone using that word when debating about Israel, I know that person is deluded enough to have no awareness of ground realities whatsoever. For them, ignorance is a choice.

 

[somebozo]

Since everyone loves to abuse the word apartheid lets have a quick review of history.

Foreign relations of South Africa during apartheid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


For record purpose, lets clarify that Israel will not export the following culture to Pakistan:

1. Banning women driving.
2. Hijab, Abaya and veil
3. Compulsory male chaperon for women to travel abroad or open business.
4. Considering woman testimony as half that of man.
5. Enforced closing of business five times a day
6. Segregation and discrimination.

Let the readers decide who is actually more apartheid and fascist.

Majority Pakistanis have warm feelings for Arabs not because of 'a million or two have employment' in the Gulf. In fact this works against Arabs in a number of ways. The reasons are pretty easy to guess, but why bother explaining them to you.

Our policy is framed with long term goals and all the rest that you say it should be based upon. You just are not able to articulate the reasoning to yourself or are unwilling to do so.

Yep, Infact so warm that one dictator sold the entire country without garnering any concession on Kashmir issue. The worst criminal in Pakistan history who siphoned millions of overseas Pakistani's hard earned foreign currency and pushed the country backwards into the hands of Talibans and tried to enforce austere shariah laws to further his campaign of loot was was given refugee nowhere but in Jeddah to save his neck from the hangman.

 

[somebozo]

Apparently the Arabs are more independent than Pakistani's.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/central-south-asia/240920-egypt-looks-much-deeper-engagement-india.html

 

[hussain0216]

What the arabs do should be of no concern to any muslim

Palestine is a muslim issue

All the arabs states can befriend israel and it shouldnt matter one bit to any muslim

On the day of judgement we wikk be asked about our lives and actions and why we didnt oppose and strike occupiers of muslim land and oppressors of muslims like israel assad mubarak

Thw reality is the jews are toast in the future

 

[somebozo]

What the arabs do should be of no concern to any muslim

Palestine is a muslim issue

All the arabs states can befriend israel and it shouldnt matter one bit to any muslim

On the day of judgement we wikk be asked about our lives and actions and why we didnt oppose and strike occupiers of muslim land and oppressors of muslims like israel assad mubarak

Thw reality is the jews are toast in the future

Ohh please stop this nonsense propoganda..on the judgement leaders will also be asked why they were murdering their own innocent civilians, funding terrorism in other muslim countries and leaders who have failed to feed and shelter their subject adequately.

 

[hussain0216]

YES they will be and if they dont have an answer they will face hell

Israel is an enemy if the muslims, it is occupying muslim land and oppressing muslim people

Their is NO excuse for any muslim to befriend this evil state

Slowly but surely we have to work to erode the jews

 

[qamar1990]

r u serious buddy?? in which angle pakistan is fine if u compare to israel

we are fine like he said. we dont need relationships thieves, crooks, evil, heartless and cowards.not to mention who use kids as human shields, bomb populated areas on purpose, tried to bomb our nuclear sites and supported a country we fought against 4 times.
which angle is india fine compared to israel?
you got cannibals in india, your farmers commit suicide by the thousands, you got hiv problem, and dont give give me that crap about how india has a middle bigger the pakistans population cuz even if you do you people living in poverty are more the n 5 times pakistans population as well.

 

[qamar1990]

Since everyone loves to abuse the word apartheid lets have a quick review of history.

Foreign relations of South Africa during apartheid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


For record purpose, lets clarify that Israel will not export the following culture to Pakistan:

1. Banning women driving.
2. Hijab, Abaya and veil
3. Compulsory male chaperon for women to travel abroad or open business.
4. Considering woman testimony as half that of man.
5. Enforced closing of business five times a day
6. Segregation and discrimination.

Let the readers decide who is actually more apartheid and fascist.



Yep, Infact so warm that one dictator sold the entire country without garnering any concession on Kashmir issue. The worst criminal in Pakistan history who siphoned millions of overseas Pakistani's hard earned foreign currency and pushed the country backwards into the hands of Talibans and tried to enforce austere shariah laws to further his campaign of loot was was given refugee nowhere but in Jeddah to save his neck from the hangman.

nobody is saying arabs are perfect. but we will choose them before we choose israel or any other country in the world. you can say what you want but nobody is guna care about your unislamic( unpakistani) opinion.
you mentioning saudia like they did a bad thing by letting sharif who was on SELF exile stay in saudia. dont forget about tarek fatah in the use, or altaf hussein in uk or every other anti pakistani person in these countries.

you also right that israel will not export the things yopu mentioned but you know what theyw ill export?
israeli weapons to india, help destabilize balochistan, try to bomb our nuclear sites.

Apparently the Arabs are more independent than Pakistani's.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/central-south-asia/240920-egypt-looks-much-deeper-engagement-india.html

why you talking crap about arabs?
they done more for pakistan you will in your entire life!
all you are is a keyboard warrior thats it.
i know arabs from yemen, eygpt, and syria they love pakistan they would never choose india over pakistan thats a fact but only a real muslim would know that.

 

[qamar1990]

Ohh please stop this nonsense propoganda..on the judgement leaders will also be asked why they were murdering their own innocent civilians, funding terrorism in other muslim countries and leaders who have failed to feed and shelter their subject adequately.

right i think your little too smart for your self lol. you think you got it al figured out dont you? lol