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Pakistan India Border/LOC Status-Update-Discussion

PatriotLover

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Some OSINT sources claiming the LOCis hot again. BJP said in Indian parliament that they are ready to die for Azad Kashmir including Gilgit B. Remember Indian and our parts of Kashmir has media and internet blachout so we know nothing whats going on.

This thread could be used as a on ground sources and info collection so we have a better picture what Indians are upto.
 
The term Line of Control (LoC) refers to the military control line between the Indian and Pakistanicontrolled parts of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir—a line which does not constitute a legally recognized international boundary, but is the de facto border. Originally known as the Cease-fire Line, it was redesignated as the "Line of Control" following the Simla Agreement, which was signed on 3 July 1972. The part of the former princely state that is under Indian control is known as the state of Jammu and Kashmir. The Pakistani-controlled part is divided into Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Gilgit–Baltistan. The northernmost point of the Line of Control is known as NJ9842. The India–Pakistan border continues from the southernmost point on the LoC.

Another ceasefire line separates the Indian-controlled state of Jammu and Kashmir from the Chinese-controlled area known as Aksai Chin. Lying further to the east, it is known as the Line of Actual Control(LAC).
Background
Agreement relating to Cease-fire Line in J&K
AGREEMENT BETWEEN MILITARY REPRESENTATIVES OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN REGARDING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF CEASE-FIRE LINE IN THE STATE OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR

INTRODUCTION

A. The military representatives of India and Pakistan met together in Karachi from 18 July to 27 JULY 1949 under the auspices of the Truce Sub-committee of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan.

B. The members of the Indian Delegation were:

  • Lt.-Gen. S.M. Shrinagesh
  • Maj.-Gen. K.S. Thimaya
  • Brig. S.H.F.J. Manekshaw
As observers:

  • Mr. H.M. Patel
  • Mr. V. Sahay C.
The members of the Pakistan Delegation were:

  • Maj.-Gen. W.J. Cawthorn
  • Maj.-Gen. Nazir Ahmad
  • Brig. M. Sher Khan
As observers:

  • Mr. M. Ayub
  • Mr. A. A. Khan.
D. The members of the Truce Sub-committee of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan were:

  • Chairman, Mr. Hernando Samper (Colombia)
  • Mr. William L.S. Williams (United States)
  • Lt.-Gen. Maurice Delvoie (Military Adviser)
  • Mr. Miguel A. Marin (Legal Adviser).
II

AGREEMENT

A. Considering:

  • That the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan, in its letter dated 2 July 1949, invited the Governments of India and Pakistan to send fully authorised military representatives to meet jointly in Karachi under the auspices of the Commission's Truce Sub-committee to establish a cease-fire line in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, mutually agreed upon by the Governments of India and Pakistan;
  • That the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan in its letter stated that "The meetings will be for military purposes; political issues will not be considered", and that "They will be conducted without prejudice to negotiations concerning the Truce Agreement'
  • That in the same letter the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan further stated that: "The cease-fire line is a complement of the suspension of hostilities, which falls within the provisions of Part I of the Resolution of 13 August 1948, and can be considered separately from the questions relating to Part II of the same Resolution";
  • That the Governments of India and Pakistan, in their letters dated 7 July 1949 to the Chairman of the Commisssion, accepted the Commission's invitation to the military conference in Karachi;
  • The Delegations of India and Pakistan, duly authorized, have reached the following agreement:
    1. Under the provisions of Part I of the Resolution of 13 August 1948, and as a complement of the suspension of hostilities in the State of Jammu and Kashmir on 1 January 1949, a cease-fire line is established.
    2. The cease-fire line runs from MANAWAR in the south, north to KERAN and from KE RAN east to the glacier area, as follows:
  • The line from MANAWAR to the south bank of the JHELUM River at URUSA (inclusive to India) is the fine now defined by the factual positions about which there is agreement between both parties. Where there has hitherto not been agreement, the line shall be as follows:
    1. In PATRANA area: KOEL (inclusive to Pakistan) north along the KHUWALA KAS Nullah up to point 2276 (inclusive to India), thence to KlRNI (inclusive to India).
    2. KHAMBHA, PIR SATWAN, point 3150 and Point 3606 are inclusive to India, thence the line runs to the factual position at BAGLA GALA, thence to the factual position at Point 3300.
    3. In the area south of URI the positions of PIR KANTHI and LED! GAL! are inclusive to Pakistan.
    • From the north bank of the JHELUM River the line runs from a point opposite the village of URUSA (NL 972109), thence north following the BALLASETH DA NAR Nullah (inclusive to Pakistan), up to NL 973140, thence northeast to CHOTA KAZINAG (Point 10657, inclusive to India), thence to NM 010180, thence to NM 037210, thence to Point 11825 (NM 025354, inclusive to Pakistan), thence to TUTUMARI GALI (to be shared by both sides, posts to be established 500 yds. on either side of the GALI), thence to the northwest through the first "R" of BURST NAR to north of GABDORI, thence straight west to just north of Point 9870, thence along the black line north of BIJILDHAR to north of BATARASI, thence to just sourth of SUDPURA, thence due north to the KATHAKAZINAG Nullah, thence along the Nullah to its junction with the GRANGNAR Nullah, thence along the latter Nullah to KAJNWALA PATHRA (inclusive to India), thence across the DHANNA ridge (following the factual positions) to RICHMAR GALI (inclusive to India), thence north to THANDA KATHA Nullah, thence north to the KISHANGANGA River. The line then follows the KISHANGANGA River up to a point situated between JARGT and TARBAN, thence (all inclusive to Pakistan) to BANKORAN, thence northeast to KHORI, thence to the hill feature 8930 (in Square 9053), thence straight north to Point 10164 (in Square 9057), thence to Poirit 10323 (in Square 9161), thence northeast straight to GUTHUR, thence to BHUTPATHRA, thence to NL 980707, thence following the BUGINA Nullah to the junction with the KISHANGANGA River at Point 4739. Thereafter the line follows the KISHANGANGA to KERAN and onwards to Point 4996 (NL 975818).
    • From Point 4996 the line follows (all inclusive to Pakistan) the JAMGAR Nullah eastward to Point 12124, to KATWARE, to Point 6678, thence to the northeast to SARIAN (Point 11279), to Point 11837, to Point 13090, to Point 12641, thence east again to Point 11142, thence to DHAKKI, thence to Point 11415, thence to Point 10301, thence to Point 7507, thence to Point 10685, thence to Point 8388, thence southeast to Point 11812. Thence the line runs (all inclusive to India) to Point 13220, thence across the River to the east to Point 13449 (DURMAT), thence to Point 14586 (ANZBARI), thence to Point 13554, thence to Milestone 45 on the BURZIL Nullah, thence to the east to ZIANKAL (Point 12909), thence to the southeast to Point 11114, thence to Point 12216, thence to Point 12867, thence to the east to Point 11264, thence to KARO (P,oint 14985), thence to Point 14014, thence to Point 12089, thence following the track to Point 12879. From there the line runs to Point 13647 (KAROBAL GALI, to be shared by both sides). The cease-fire line runs thence through RETAGAH CHHISH (Point 15316), thence through Point 15889, thence through Point 17392, thence through Point 16458, thence to MARIOLA (to be shared by both sides), thence through Point 17561, thence through Point 17352, thence through Point 18400, thence through Point 16760, thence to (inclusive to India), DALUNANG
    • From DALUNANG eastwards the cease-fire line will follow the general line Point 15495, ISHMAN, MANUS, GANGAM, GUNDERMAN, Point 13620, JUNKAR (Point 17628), MARMAK, NATSARA, SHANGRUTH (Point 17531), CHORBAT LA (Point 15700), CHALUNKA (on the SHYOK River), KHOR, thence north to the glaciers. This portion of the cease-fire line shall be demarcated in detail on the basis of the factual position as of 27 July 1949 by the local commanders, assisted by United Nations Military Observers.
    • The cease-fire line described above shall be drawn on a one inch map (where available) and then be verified mutually on the ground by local commanders on each side with the assistance of the United Nations Military Observers, so as to eliminate any no-man's land. In the event that the local commanders are unable to reach agreement, the matter shall be referred to the Commission's Military Adviser, whose decision shall be final. After this verification, the Military Adviser will issue to each High Command a map on which will be marked the definitive cease-fire line.
    • No troops shall be stationed or operate in the area of the BURZIL Nullah from south of MINIMARG to the cease-fire line. This area is bounded on the west by the Ridge leading northeast from DUDGAI KAL to Point 13071, to Point 9447, to Point 13466, to Point 13463, and on the east by the Ridge running from Point 12470, to Point 11608, to Point 13004, to Point 13976, to Point 13450. Pakistan may, however, post troops on the western of the above ridges to cover the approaches to KHAMBRI Baipass.
    • In any dispositions that may be adopted in consequence of the present agreement troops will remain ,at least 500 yards from the cease-fire line except where the KTSHANGANGA River constitutes the line. Points which have been shown as inclusive to one party may be occupied by that party, but the troops of the other party shall remain at a distance of 500 yards.
    • Both sides shall be free to adjust their defensive positions behind the cease-fire line as determined in paragraphs A to E inclusive above, subject to no wire or mines being used when new bunkers and defences are constructed. There shall be no increase of forces or strengthening of defences in areas where no major adjustments are involved by the determination of the cease-fire line.
    • The action permitted by paragraph F above shall not be accompanied or accomplished by the introduction of additional military potential by either side into the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
    • Except as modified by Paragraphs II-A to II-G, inclusive, above, the military agreements between the two High Commands relating to the cease-fire of 1 January 1949 shall continue to reamin operative. I. The United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan will station Observers where it deems necessary.
    • The Delegations shall refer this Agreement to their respective Governments for ratification. The documents of ratification shall be deposited with the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan not later than 31 July 1949.
    • A period of 30 days from the date of ratification shall be allowed to each side to vacate the areas at present occupied by them beyond the cease-fire line as now determined. Before the expiration of this 30-day period their shall be no forward movement into areas to be taken over by either side pursuant to this agreement, except by mutual agreement between local commanders.
    I
Shimla Agreement 1972 and formation of LOC 1972

The Simla Agreement signed by Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan on 2nd July 1972 was much more than a peace treaty seeking to reverse the consequences of the 1971 war (i.e. to bring about withdrawals of troops and an exchange of PoWs). It was a comprehensive blue print for good neighbourly relations between India and Pakistan. Under the Simla Agreement both countries undertook to abjure conflict and confrontation which had marred relations in the past, and to work towards the establishment of durable peace, friendship and cooperation.

The Simla Agreement contains a set of guiding principles, mutually agreed to by India and Pakistan, which both sides would adhere to while managing relations with each other. These emphasize: respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty; non-interference in each other’s internal affairs; respect for each others unity, political independence; sovereign equality; and abjuring hostile propaganda. The following principles of the Agreement are, however, particularly noteworthy:

  • A mutual commitment to the peaceful resolution of all issues through direct bilateral approaches.
  • To build the foundations of a cooperative relationship with special focus on people to people contacts.
  • To uphold the inviolability of the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir, which is a most important CBM between India and Pakistan, and a key to durable peace.
India has faithfully observed the Simla Agreement in the conduct of its relations with Pakistan.

SIMLA AGREEMENT

Agreement on Bilateral Relations Between The Government of India and The Government of Pakistan

  • The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflict and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the sub-continent, so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing talk of advancing the welfare of their peoples.

    In order to achieve this objective, the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan have agreed as follows:-
    • That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries;
    • That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peaceful and harmonious relations;
    • That the pre-requisite for reconciliation, good neighbourliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both the countries to peaceful co-existence, respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty and non-interference in each other’s internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit;
    • That the basic issues and causes of conflict which have bedevilled the relations between the two countries for the last 25 years shall be resolved by peaceful means;
    • That they shall always respect each other’s national unity, territorial integrity, political independence and sovereign equality;
    • That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations they will refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other.
  • Both Governments will take all steps within their power to prevent hostile propaganda directed against each other. Both countries will encourage the dissemination of such information as would promote the development of friendly relations between them.
  • In order progressively to restore and normalize relations between the two countries step by step, it was agreed that;
    • Steps shall be taken to resume communications, postal, telegraphic, sea, land including border posts, and air links including overflights.
    • Appropriate steps shall be taken to promote travel facilities for the nationals of the other country.
    • Trade and co-operation in economic and other agreed fields will be resumed as far as possible.
    • Exchange in the fields of science and culture will be promoted.
    In this connection delegations from the two countires will meet from time to time to work out the necessary details.
  • In order to initiate the process of the establishment of durable peace, both the Governments agree that:
    • Indian and Pakistani forces shall be withdrawn to their side of the international border.
    • In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this Line.
    • The withdrawals shall commence upon entry into force of this Agreement and shall be completed within a period of 30 days thereof.
  • This Agreement will be subject to ratification by both countries in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures, and will come into force with effect from the date on which the Instruments of Ratification are exchanged.
  • Both Governments agree that their respective Heads will meet again at a mutually convenient time in the future and that, in the meanwhile, the representatives of the two sides will meet to discuss further the modalities and arrangements for the establishment of durable peace and normalization of relations, including the questions of repatriation of prisoners of war and civilian internees, a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir and the resumption of diplomatic relations.

LOC 1972
In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side.

(Many of important points in kargil sector went into Indian hands,including tiger hills)

So,what is legal status of LOC after Bharat has scrapped Article-370 and had made Kashmir a union state.Going by that Bharat has unilaterally decleared LOC as International Border.
 
Next step is printing of new maps by Bharat+forcing international media to propagate that.
Pakistan must act,before it's too late like post 9/11 sitution.
@waz @Zibago @Markhoor @Mangus Ortus Novem @Zarvan @Syed Hammad Ahmed @Pakhtoon yum
@Bratva @DESERT FIGHTER @Psychic

@newb3e
Imran should review his current attitude of appeasement for a starter.
For him, Kashmir is not as sensitive. He is still under the delusion of "peaceful co-existence". He called Pulwama a "tragedy", has declared an offensive on "militias" which are basically nothing but mainstreamed former militant organizations now engaged in charity work. Wants trade with India and is more concerned with his image as a peacemaker.

What Pakistan must do;
Diplomatic offensive
Recalling diplomatic mission
Throwing Indian ambassador out
Aggressive lobbying in foreign countries
Ending all trade with India
Aggressive posturing on LOC
Covert support to Kashmiri freedom fighters
Using Afghan card with US

If Imran succumbs to pressure or commits the same folly committed by Musharraf, then he will never be forgiven for this betrayal of the century.

- total ban on gangu media/entertainment
There was a ban imposed on Gangalands films and media after 26 Feb I think
 
Up Next
Indus water treaty:lol:

Imran should review his current attitude of appeasement for a starter.
For him, Kashmir is not as sensitive. He is still under the delusion of "peaceful co-existence". He called Pulwama a "tragedy", has declared an offensive on "militias" which are basically nothing but mainstreamed former militant organizations now engaged in charity work. Wants trade with India and is more concerned with his image as a peacemaker.

What Pakistan must do;
Diplomatic offensive
Recalling diplomatic mission
Throwing Indian ambassador out
Aggressive lobbying in foreign countries
Ending all trade with India
Aggressive posturing on LOC
Covert support to Kashmiri freedom fighters
Using Afghan card with US

If Imran succumbs to pressure or commits the same folly committed by Musharraf, then he will never be forgiven for this betrayal of the century.


There was a ban imposed on Gangalands films and media after 26 Feb I think
Pakistan is acting like a frog which has fallen in hot water tub.
 
So,what is legal status of LOC after Bharat has scrapped Article-370 and had made Kashmir a union state.Going by that Bharat has unilaterally decleared LOC as International Border.

Actually no, If your read Amit Shah's statement today. Legally India still claims AKJ, GB. So LOC does not become international border.
 
Actually no, If your read Amit Shah's statement today. Legally India still claims AKJ, GB. So LOC does not become international border.
On what basis he claims?

LoC remains unchanged. As does IWT.
None of them remains same.When Bharat has changed status of Kashmir these things are next,
J&k has given same status like that of Punjab,so it's border status automatically changes according to Bharat.
 
Actually no, If your read Amit Shah's statement today. Legally India still claims AKJ, GB. So LOC does not become international border.
Legally, Maharaja's accession to India was conditional. India's constitutional amendments are in volition of the promises and agreements it signed left, right and center. Therefore the instrument of accession is now null and void and the legitimacy of Indian claim over Kashmir based upon the instrument of accession has itself become null and void.

India violated the agreement it signed itself along with violating her obligations under the UN. In any case, India has weakened her claim over Kashmir, not strengthened it. Amit can bark in any tone he wants to, India's "legal claim" over Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan has lost whatever questionable value it previously had. India should worry about the part of Kashmir she occupies and the legality her colonialism.
 
Reports of Indian army buying huge amounts of ration and also reports of Artillery use on LOC. News and communication blackout continues. No confirmation hence.
 
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