Pakistan Has Settled All Scores With India

[Green Machine]

I don't see the same decline that you do. I agree that the Chinese are ascending rapidly, but this has not come at the expense of US. As of today, the Americans still lead in military technology. The Chinese side is merely catching up. American economy still marches forward and I think it will continue to do so as long as USD remains the default currency.

Change is the only constant. So eventually I expect the Americans to be toppled and their successors to also be super seeded. But that is a discussion for people in the future

The United States has just suffered a crushing defeat in Afghanistan at the hands of a peasant force with no airforce / navy or heavy armour.#

Imagine the damage that China could inflict, thankfully they are a peace loving country.

 

[Wood]

The United States has just suffered a crushing defeat in Afghanistan at the hands of a peasant force with no airforce / navy or heavy armour.#

Imagine the damage that China could inflict, thankfully they are a peace loving country.

US also suffered a crushing defeat against poorly equipped Vietcong. Did US disappear after that?

US will not fight China unless China does a Pearl Harbor. If China is a peace loving country as you say, then that is good luck for US

 

[Green Machine]

US also suffered a crushing defeat against poorly equipped Vietcong. Did US disappear after that?

US will not fight China unless China does a Pearl Harbor. If China is a peace loving country as you say, then that is good luck for US

The US had vacated South Vietnam years before the fall of Saigon - Kabul fell with the US still present and its puppet regime fall before its eyes.

 

[Wood]

The US had vacated South Vietnam years before the fall of Saigon - Kabul fell with the US still present and its puppet regime fall before its eyes.

In both cases, it was an unprecedented defeat for the time. Even in apparent defeat, the American exit from Afghanistan is for the greater good of Americans. It will allow America to put its muscle against its real strategic adversary.

 

[Green Machine]

In both cases, it was an unprecedented defeat for the time. Even in apparent defeat, the American exit from Afghanistan is for the greater good of Americans. It will allow America to put its muscle against its real strategic adversary.

Nonsense. The world now thinks America is not a reliable ally, which has been proven time and again.

 

[Wood]

Nonsense. The world now thinks America is not a reliable ally, which has been proven time and again.

I'll concede that the NATO countries are unhappy with the manner American exit from Afghanistan. But so is half of American citizens. I'll put my money on the damage from Afghan exit getting resolved with passage of time.

 

[magra]

Both India and China have come a long way in building infrastructure to support war efforts in the region. The Chinese side has outclassed the Indian side if public reports (from Indian side) are to be believed. I don't think that the problems faced by the Chinese supply chain in '62 can be relied upon as a panacea in future conflicts.

If China has improved in its attack capabilities, then India has also improved in its defense. We need to prepare well, but no need to panic either.

India (or any country for that matter) can rely on US as long as their interests are aligned properly. The countries that you've listed as being 'betrayed' by US simply lost the alignment of interests with that of the US. Pakistan is a prime example. US views China as a menace, while Pakistan looks at China as an indispensable ally against India. It is only natural that US and Pakistan will drift apart.

Pakistan may be a double dealing uncertain partner, but what about Kurds? They were clearly cheated and left out to dry by US for no fault of theirs. What if in a war with an adversary, US suddenly decides to stop supplying spareparts of existing military equipment to India?

India depends on US benevolence for trade and high tech weaponry even now.

US is lining up to sell India weapons. India has other options too - Russia, UK, France, Israel, Sweden etc

What does India have to offer US in return? Don't think that India will fight China for US. India will have to confront China for it's own interest and not for US.

US wants to directly or indirectly control the world. It can safely bet on India to control the entire Indian ocean region as per US interests. US does not expect India to fight China for them. We just need to deter or slow down Chinese expansion in Indian ocean.

 

[Wood]

Pakistan may be a double dealing uncertain partner, but what about Kurds? They were clearly cheated and left out to dry by US for no fault of theirs. What if in a war with an adversary, US suddenly decides to stop supplying spareparts of existing military equipment to India?

US abandoned Kurds because there is no strategic benefit for the US in aiding Kurds over Turkey. This is precisely my point. If US does not have anything to gain by helping India against China, then US cannot be relied upon. But until then, India can feel safe with US.

US is lining up to sell India weapons. India has other options too - Russia, UK, France, Israel, Sweden etc

China has risen to the point where it's weapons are at par if not better than these countries. Which of 'em can supply India with P8i or Reaper? Could these countries have lobbied India into MCTR, Wassenaar Arrangement and Australia Group? Only US has weapon systems (F-35, F-22, B-21 etc.) that can truly deter China. If India is pushed into back foot in a conflict, then only direct military help from the US can tip the scales in favor of India. This will require Indian army to have operational integration with US military like how Pakistan is integrating with China.

I understand that many Indians are convinced that 'strategic autonomy' is best for the country. But I think that such luxury is only affordable for countries that do not face a serious threat from a much superior foe. India unfortunately does not qualify!

 

[magra]

US abandoned Kurds because there is no strategic benefit for the US in aiding Kurds over Turkey. This is precisely my point. If US does not have anything to gain by helping India against China, then US cannot be relied upon. But until then, India can feel safe with US.

Abandoning your friends as soon as they are no longer of use may give you short term gains, but it erodes long term credibility. No country will ever feel safe as an ally of US. As such, no long term commitments can be made.

If India is pushed into back foot in a conflict, then only direct military help from the US can tip the scales in favor of India. This will require Indian army to have operational integration with US military like how Pakistan is integrating with China.

With an adversary such as China, if India is running a defensive war, we would not need US. US will never provide boots on the ground help to India. They may provide intelligence, tech and equipment help.

I understand that many Indians are convinced that 'strategic autonomy' is best for the country. But I think that such luxury is only affordable for countries that do not face a serious threat from a much superior foe. India unfortunately does not qualify!

Tell me what more can we get from US by completely entering its camp, which we are not getting already.

 

[Silverblaze]

You are forgetting from where Pakistan was created - Namely by c-section of mother India with a British midwife in 1947.

India lost over 1 million square kilometers of territory, 100 million people.

That is alot more than East Pakistan which is only 148,000 Sq KM the size of the US state of Iowa.

So yes, I feel the partition of India in 1947 was more traumatic for Indians, than the loss of East Pakistan.

You are right that they believe bharat mata of theirs was slaughtered.

But There is no such thing as india, the mauryan empire they dream of will never exist. They can think whatever they want. To consider Pakistan a part of india is agreeing to the hindu narrative.

My concern is Pakistan and Kashmir particularly the valley which is 97% muslim and is in hindu hands. Pakistan does not have any hindu majority areas.

First they partitioned only muslim majority Punjab and Bengal, killed a million muslims and then invaded Kashmir, invaded Junagadh and hyderabad, then East Pakistan, then Siachin and now sponsor terrorism.

Pakistanis and its leadership must face facts. india is an ideological and civilizational enemy of Pakistan and it has done more damage to Pakistan than Pakistan has to it.

Pakistan now can only survive if it becomes extremely efficient like singapore and south korea and then counter india. Sadly, Pakistan never had a sincere and able leadership that understands the situation.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

1971 not settled

To Do list

 

[VkdIndian]

Don't forget we partitioned your backward country in 1947!

Can we consider score settled then?

 

[MultaniGuy]

You are right that they believe bharat mata of theirs was slaughtered.

But There is no such thing as india, the mauryan empire they dream of will never exist. They can think whatever they want. To consider Pakistan a part of india is agreeing to the hindu narrative.

My concern is Pakistan and Kashmir particularly the valley which is 97% muslim and is in hindu hands. Pakistan does not have any hindu majority areas.

First they partitioned only muslim majority Punjab and Bengal, killed a million muslims and then invaded Kashmir, invaded Junagadh and hyderabad, then East Pakistan, then Siachin and now sponsor terrorism.

Pakistanis and its leadership must face facts. india is an ideological and civilizational enemy of Pakistan and it has done more damage to Pakistan than Pakistan has to it.

Pakistan now can only survive if it becomes extremely efficient like singapore and south korea and then counter india. Sadly, Pakistan never had a sincere and able leadership that understands the situation.

I agree with ultranationalists such as yourself.

Hopefully after Imran Khan, Pakistan will change for the better.

 

[Silverblaze]

I agree with ultranationalists such as yourself.

Hopefully after Imran Khan, Pakistan will change for the better.

Thanks for replying.

These are just facts that i stated. I only consider myself as a well wisher of Pakistan. It is so obvious.

Pakistan elite fails to understand that a peaceful relationship with india is impossible. Somethings just cant be achieved no matter how hard you try. Its another matter if india is dismembered. The successor states might be friendly.

A new theory is being floated that Pakistan cannot progress unless india is made a friend. This is another effort to hide incompetence by the elite.

I have zero confidence in Paks leadership its been the same since 47.

 

[SIPRA]

Can we consider score settled then?

It is not primarily a matter of score settling. It is a far broader issue، something like a pervading civilizational conflict. Resolution of such conflicts warrant change in mindset, which is a most hard task, to accomplish.