Pakistan-GCC military cooperation. Is it worthwhile?

[Taimoor Khan]

What I make of the situation is that, The flag-bearers of the GCC foreign policy i.e UAE and Saudi Arabia, have come to realize, that Pakistan will be of little importance in the quickly maturing regional strategic balance of the Middle East.

The GCC has found cooperation with Israel very helpful to tackle the Iran problem because Iran is the only thing that is on their minds right now. After Pakistan excused from the Yemen assault, GCC did not work hard to find a way to neutralize the Iran threat : in the form of friendship and cordial relations with Israel.

It is surprising that the place that Pakistan had in the GCC is slowly being replaced by not India but Israel! and slowly more and more Arab countries are getting comfortable with it.

Israel is Pounding Iran backed militias based in Lebanon that were helping the Palestinians and guess what the foreign minister of Bahrain had to say : 'Israel striking Iran targets is nothing but 'self defence'. See for your self=

https://www.timesofisrael.com/appea...in-says-strikes-on-iran-targets-self-defense/

Netanyahu is visiting GCC countries left and right and the arabs are appeasing Israel more and more =

View attachment 576258

I am not sure whether we should have gone forward with the Yemen offensive but the effects of the Pakistan's 'Betrayal' (as they call it) are extremely evident in the form of their stance on Kashmir, and their plans of a long term alliance with Israel and pleasant relations with India.

Pakistan's foreign policy has reduced Pakistan to a backup plan for the GCC and the GCC have come up with a cunning plan that might even work for them better as compared to Pakistan.

The GCC has been a good friend to us from the very start, they have helped us with our nuclear program, bailed us out multiple times, and helped our relations with USA when the relations were cold, but this one time Pakistan had to excuse because our own internal security and neighborly relations were at stake. This excuse ,however, regardless of our own problems, will eventually lead to a divorce between Pakistan and the GCC for at least until Iran is neutralized.

THE WAY FORWARD: Pakistan needs not to initiate any reduction in ties with the GCC just because they are not as strong in their stance against Indian atrocities in Kashmir. Good ties are still to benefit Pakistan.
We will just have to wait patiently and see how things fold between Pakistan and India and see how the GCC evolves her stance on Kashmir because to them, Kashmir is still not that much of a serious situation. I predict that the Kashmir situation will get serious in the coming few months much to the disappointment of the GCC.



The only boots on ground I see in the future are of the Israelis on the GCC to help them overcome the trembling fear for the Persians.
And as far as the protection of Hijaz is concerned, I think Israel will still need another few decades to be in a position to even think about it.

Pakistan never had any security cooperation or hidden pact with GCC over Iran. A well documented and discussed Pakistani "nuke umbrella", was to deter Isreal. Not in million years Pakistan would have nuked Iran on behalf of GCC. That was never part of any arrangement. Even the so called "anti Shia" , General Zia Ul Haq gave two finger salute to GCC when they raised objections on composition of Pakistan Army contingent send to SA with Shia personal part of it.

Now if GCC are best buddies with Zionists, it's up to them, they changed the goal post not us.

Yes, I agree, not just from GCC but from Pakistan own perspective, the security arrangement we had with them is dysfunctional. They cant help us in our fight with India neither we are of any help to them over Iran.

Funny thing is, just today Trump send a googly to GCC by inviting Rouhani for talks.

That is where the sane advise of Dr Mahatir should be taken into account. Pakistan, Turkey and Malaysia grouping is the way forward. No complications, no historical luggage, just purely win win situation for all. And if Iran can get out of its Persian empire non sense, can be slotted in at later stage.

Salaam


You have to keep in mind that there are no purely military engagements - military engagements are, as Clauswitz put it, diplomacy through other means.

Our military is there because it helps us forward our interests - and we have a lot of political and economic interests in that region. It is irrelevant if we are currently fighting a war there or not - our presence helps us achieve certain non-military objectives and so we continue to maintain it.

The Arabs may have gotten closer to Israel but that doesn't mean that our relationship with them has to end. We are closer to the Saudis and the Arabs for reasons other than Israel as well - and saying we should end our alliance with them because they have improved relationship with Israel seems to ignore the reality of our deeper relationship.

Both the Turks and the Chinese have had relations with Israel, and yet we are closer than ever with both of them. So why the different attitude towards the Arabs?

With regards to the Arab Iran issue - we haven't been asked to invade Iran yet - and even if we were - we will be free to chose according to our interests. We've always maintained that our forces will defend the territorial integrity of our allies in a defensive war - so if we don't invade Iran at their behest we'd still be within our officially stated commitment. I don't really see the problem there.

If we leave our Arab allies - who do actually help us with money whenever we need it - it would leave the door wide open for someone else - possibly a party we may not like - to come fill in the role we abandon.

Lastly, imagine how incredibly stupid we'd have to be to leave our long standing close allies - who bailed us out not more than year ago with hard cash (in addition to countless other times) - simply because they gave our enemy a medal or something. That would indeed be a greater gift to our enemy than any award the Arabs could ever give.


...

Tall claims to make when we have just seen how GCC ditched Pakistan on a matter which is absolutely core to our existence as a nation.

Everything has expiry date. New world order, new alliances, as I have said earlier, we need to pay head to the respected and wise Dr Mahatir. Pakistan, Turkey and Malaysia is the way forward.

 

[mingle]

Yes. It is even more important than ever before.

Short-fused, without critical thinking, auto-emotional reactions is not going to provide work to millions of Paks working in GCC.

Incidently, these millions of Paks send money back home which keeps the country going... given how our economy, society, education and industry is destroyed in last 35-40 years.

Are we going to leave the field open to GanguDaesh so that they can take Pak jobs and become even more nauseating?

I say, PMIK kindly hop on the Pak1 and go on whirlwind tour of entire GCC... even a courtesy visit to Eygpt... enhance our relationship... and turn into geo-economic-geo-strategic.

Go to Tehran, Turkey...and then fly to Europe,...on way back to Moscow... and then stop in BeiJing... after rest Southeat Asia and Tokyo.

I do expect all thest to happen before PMIK has time to catch up before hopping on plane again to UN.

Luckily, PakState doesn't think like Pakposters....

GanguDaesh has bitten more than it can chew... time to rebalance the Strategic Equations.

Kuch logon ko jooton ki zarorat Hai Pak main who don't understand world and life won't stop no matter what happens and how nations forgien policy works.

Yes that was a source of sadness to Palestinians who had lost 25 000 of their keen in that battle o "Black September" lead by Jordanian forces trained by Brigadier Zia ul haq at that time, but some say there were Pakistani troops also..and even then there was never any hatred..the fact is that India supported Palestine very strongly..at those times..

This Guy Arafat hated us to core neither his ppl like US and we are more loyal to them than they are to themselves. Time to think cool and look for our own interest.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

No denying. Arafat was an Indian puppet. So is Abbas.

Arafat was with USSR. Abbas is Jordanian puppet. India was in alliance with USSR and hence Arafat was supportive of India. But Abbas has no liking towards India.

First from GCC perspective. Their only security threat, according to their own threat perception is coming from Iran and her proxies. Isreal is now their best buddies.

Do you think countries will openly tell who their threat is? We do you think Saudi Arabia started Islamic military alliance by hitting pakistani military chief Raheel Sharif? To fight Iran? Does one need the alliance that many countries to fight Iran? Moreover, countries close to Iran like Turkey, Pakistan are also part of it. Pakistan even have no objection to Raheel Sharif bring hired as the chief. Do you see something in this move?

 

[IbnAbdullah]

Salaam

Everything has expiry date. New world order, new alliances, as I have said earlier, we need to pay head to the respected and wise Dr Mahatir. Pakistan, Turkey and Malaysia is the way forward.

I agree that we should invest in the Turkey, Malaysia and Pakistan alliance. I just don't see why it has to be one or the other - we can have that alliance whilst still maintaining reasonably good relations with the GCC.

The relationship between Pakistan and GCC has been more along the lines of we support them militarily/politically etc and they give us money when we need it. This paradigm has not changed - and I don't see any real reason to change it.

They've never really been expected to provide aggressive international diplomatic/military support to us. That's not the main strength - it money.

Even still the Saudi foreign minister openly supported Pakistan within India during the Feb crisis. The Saudis haven't supported India in the recent Kashmir issue as well - in fact the Saudi-gazette has been writing aggressively pro-Kashmir articles ever since this issue started (posted here on this forum as well).

Point is - i don't see what has changed - in substantive terms not mere optics - of our relationship with the GCC countries that we must consider ending one of the most consistently beneficial alliances (direct financial support + remittances etc) we've had in our international relations over the years?

What do we actually gain from ending our relationship with them?

...

 

[Clutch]

I would like to have this discussion based on current geopolitical realities that are staring at us, specially in the aftermath of Kashmir situation and Arab world response to it. No sentimental or emotional non sense, just purely based on merit.


We are not living in 80s or 90s. Our military relation with GCC, particularly with Saudi Arabia was based on the prime and genuine threat from the Zionist entity of Israel. There have been several articles in past, and this has been discussed at length that Pakistan has this unwritten pact with Saudi establishment that we will provide them a nuclear umbrella if it ever comes to that. Well, certainly not against Iran! we ourselves have said that on many occasions that we got nothing to do with this Arab and Persian conflict and have kept ourselves out of it.

Now here is the question, when Arabs themselves are sniffing up the Zionist behind, bending backwards for them, and no one can deny this anymore, what is the actual point of Pakistan-GCC military relationships when we know that from Pakistan point of view, it was never against Iran to begin with? Against who is this military cooperation with Arabs?

Is it not the right time to recall all the men/assets from GCC when Pakistan own national security and interests demands maximum strength shown to India over situation in Kashmir? This can also be extended to the recalling of peace keeping missions all over the global. Everyone is now more less convinced that war with India over Kashmir is not the matter of if but when.


Yes, the protection of Hijaz (not Saudi Arabia) is our religious duty but considering our missile reach, do we really need boots on ground to deal with a scenario where Israel might have some lunatic ideas?


In my opinion, we should start packing our bags from GCC in the name of Pakistan own national security which is of supreme importance.

What cooperation???

We fight for them ... And they in turn give rewards to our mortal Rapistan enemies like Modi???

No-thanks.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Nice discussion and some posters have made arguments that I had not thought of while reading and formulating my own opinion. The matter on hand is of course on a lot of minds in Pakistan and rightly so. We are at a crossroads and have to take decisions for the long term prosperity and security of Pakistan.

One of the points that was brought up earlier and always crops up when Pakistan-Gulf relations are a topic is the fate of all expats working there. There have been a purge before for those workers long before the current situation evolved the way it has, and there is also no denying the 3rd class status Pakistani workers have to bear while working in the Gulf. Here I would also add that it is not in fact a charity by the Arabs. These people are actually doing hard work and labor there and rightfully earning their dues. I would like to point out that this is not just a phenomenon unique to the Middle East. For eg. Mexican workers in the US send back over $25B back to their home country, followed by China and India? Both India and Pakistan receive about the same remittances from the Gulf, around $20B or abouts. The reason why I bring this point up, is that regardless of any overt military cooperation between India or the Philippines and the GCC nations, yet they are right there amongst the top countries in remittances from the Gulf. So we should not link our military cooperation with that of our civilian workforce in those countries.
As a side note to that, lets say UAE or Bahrain replace every single Pakistan there with say Indians. Would that in itself create a threat to those nations as the demography of the people working there from the same country might grow that much greater than the local population? I am not sure, but just a point to ponder, about the implications of that say 10 or 20 years down the line when India is much stronger militarily and economically ...

As for military cooperation/ties goes, we have a long history that is not easily brushed aside. Where ever you might fall, in respect to Pakistan's response to the Yemen war, one can not deny the fact that Pakistan was fighting a war on 3 fronts! A full-fledged war against Taliban/TPP, a hot LOC and a covert war in Balochistan by India. At this time, when we were militarily stretched, our Arab allies wanted us to join another full fledged war in Yemen and by proxy heighten tensions on our Iran border as well. Had Pakistan been arrayed just against India, it might have sparred troops to help in Yemen but I find the Arab action (in including Pakistan in its military coalition without any consultation or consent) and reaction (actively undermining its relationship with us not just by courting India but also voting against Pakistan) as not just immature but also short-sighted and akin to a childish backlash.

Pakistan should not completely cut-off its military ties with GCC ... we have our own history with the US that shows how much a country loses when it does that to its detriment. However, we can scale down our footprint in those countries and that would not be to spite them but due to the threat we are now facing viz-a-viz India. That of course belies the question, what is our actual military footprint in GCC. I think it has been going down over the decades naturally on its own, as these countries have built their own academies and institutions (we also helped there) and are now more self-sufficient than ever before.

The other point is, GCC, and luckily for them Iran, are not in any state to fight each other. We have seen the KSA-UAE effectiveness or lack there of in Yemen. To think they would win any conflict against Iran is living in a fools paradise. Yes they might shoot down their aircraft and sink their ships, but they would not defeat Iran in any conclusive manner, and not to mention will take huge hits to their own economic infrastructure with destroyed ports and damaged oil fields. They will only fight each other indirectly and through proxies ... which Pakistan is never going to be. We are a nuclear military power and should act as such.

From the way Pakistan has engaged Iran over the past year, I think our policy makers clearly saw what was happening in GCC. These awards and shifts etc dont happen overnight and I am sure Pakistani establishment knew it was coming. Their focus has been to secure our western front, first by making sure Iran knows where we stand (neutrality) and next to secure the Afghan-Pak border, which thankfully is going to happen within the year (by next November hopefully). We all realize in our hearts that war with India, while perhaps not imminent, is coming down the road, and will not be fought over the rights of Kashmiris but over access to dwindling resource of water due to climate change and its impact on agriculture and feeding our large populations.

For that eventuality we need to strengthen our nation both economically and politically as both go hand in hand. Countries can grow apart and come back together and we should not discount some simple facts; that there are many Arabs who have worked closely with Pakistanis and are sympathetic to us; Modi or the current policy makers in GCC will not live forever; history has a way of repeating itself. Keeping military ties intact is therefore a very logical and rational thing to do as we should not act on shortsighted impluses or gains and think of making Pakistan as a powerhouse 50 years down the line.

 

[Imran Khan]

That is how everyone calls it.. the Arab-Israeli conflict..
Only when Qods is involved it becomes A Muslim issue..

Not even quds sir

 

[ARMalik]

Question: When most of the Arab Countries are expanding their relationship with Israel, Why is Pakistan Not re-evaluating its relationship with Israel??

 

[B.K.N]

Yep let's invite Netanyahu for a medals like these shaikhdoms,

Arabs aren't stopping Pakistan from having relations with Isreal but if Pakistani government gives medal to Netanyahu then Pakistani mullahs won't like it

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Do you think countries will openly tell who their threat is? We do you think Saudi Arabia started Islamic military alliance by hitting pakistani military chief Raheel Sharif? To fight Iran? Does one need the alliance that many countries to fight Iran? Moreover, countries close to Iran like Turkey, Pakistan are also part of it. Pakistan even have no objection to Raheel Sharif bring hired as the chief. Do you see something in this move?

That so called military alliance is dead as dodo. Nothing came out of it, cant even remember when was the last time it was discussed.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Salaam



I agree that we should invest in the Turkey, Malaysia and Pakistan alliance. I just don't see why it has to be one or the other - we can have that alliance whilst still maintaining reasonably good relations with the GCC.

The relationship between Pakistan and GCC has been more along the lines of we support them militarily/politically etc and they give us money when we need it. This paradigm has not changed - and I don't see any real reason to change it.

They've never really been expected to provide aggressive international diplomatic/military support to us. That's not the main strength - it money.

Even still the Saudi foreign minister openly supported Pakistan within India during the Feb crisis. The Saudis haven't supported India in the recent Kashmir issue as well - in fact the Saudi-gazette has been writing aggressively pro-Kashmir articles ever since this issue started (posted here on this forum as well).

Point is - i don't see what has changed - in substantive terms not mere optics - of our relationship with the GCC countries that we must consider ending one of the most consistently beneficial alliances (direct financial support + remittances etc) we've had in our international relations over the years?

What do we actually gain from ending our relationship with them?

...

No one is saying to completely cut the umbilical cord. We don't even do that with India at worst of hostilities. The discussion is purely based on military issue.

We can keep our trade relations as they are, but rather spending our finite resources, energy and enthusiasm for GCC, we must seriously and with resolve start to build the group of Pakistan-Turkey-Malaysia. If you listen to Dr Mahatir, he specifically mentioned the field of defence, for obvious reasons. And if you look at over all geopolitical landscape, there is a convergence going about between Pakistan-China-Russia-Turkey-Malaysia and some other countries, and perhaps you can add Iran and Qatar to the equation as well. GCC does not fit in this this new alignment with their rigid and complex relationship with yanks/Zionists.

You still haven't answered as to who is the perceived threat Pakistan was supposed to work against with GCC? You see, the bottom line is, even for them, this security cooperation has outlived its shelve life. All these signals that they send us just after Kashmir issue, banning our doctors in SA, investment in Muskesh Ambani group who the next day was roaring to pour in money in occupied Kashmir, UAE and Bahrian giving Modi awards. I mean come on, how obvious it could be. They are telling us to lay off and here we are , some of us and those who got their personal interest in GCC (both in civil and military) giving justification and clinging on. Its getting proper cringe to be honest.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

That so called military alliance is dead as dodo. Nothing came out of it, cant even remember when was the last time it was discussed.

Since Mr Raheel Sharif is continuing his duty as the leader of the military alliance, it is reasonable to say that there is something building up. But it is being kept under wraps by media. As Trump said in 2017-18 that USA will leave middle east and USA military will be replaced with Arab NATO, this is the Arab NATO.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Nice discussion and some posters have made arguments that I had not thought of while reading and formulating my own opinion. The matter on hand is of course on a lot of minds in Pakistan and rightly so. We are at a crossroads and have to take decisions for the long term prosperity and security of Pakistan.

One of the points that was brought up earlier and always crops up when Pakistan-Gulf relations are a topic is the fate of all expats working there. There have been a purge before for those workers long before the current situation evolved the way it has, and there is also no denying the 3rd class status Pakistani workers have to bear while working in the Gulf. Here I would also add that it is not in fact a charity by the Arabs. These people are actually doing hard work and labor there and rightfully earning their dues. I would like to point out that this is not just a phenomenon unique to the Middle East. For eg. Mexican workers in the US send back over $25B back to their home country, followed by China and India? Both India and Pakistan receive about the same remittances from the Gulf, around $20B or abouts. The reason why I bring this point up, is that regardless of any overt military cooperation between India or the Philippines and the GCC nations, yet they are right there amongst the top countries in remittances from the Gulf. So we should not link our military cooperation with that of our civilian workforce in those countries.
As a side note to that, lets say UAE or Bahrain replace every single Pakistan there with say Indians. Would that in itself create a threat to those nations as the demography of the people working there from the same country might grow that much greater than the local population? I am not sure, but just a point to ponder, about the implications of that say 10 or 20 years down the line when India is much stronger militarily and economically ...

As for military cooperation/ties goes, we have a long history that is not easily brushed aside. Where ever you might fall, in respect to Pakistan's response to the Yemen war, one can not deny the fact that Pakistan was fighting a war on 3 fronts! A full-fledged war against Taliban/TPP, a hot LOC and a covert war in Balochistan by India. At this time, when we were militarily stretched, our Arab allies wanted us to join another full fledged war in Yemen and by proxy heighten tensions on our Iran border as well. Had Pakistan been arrayed just against India, it might have sparred troops to help in Yemen but I find the Arab action (in including Pakistan in its military coalition without any consultation or consent) and reaction (actively undermining its relationship with us not just by courting India but also voting against Pakistan) as not just immature but also short-sighted and akin to a childish backlash.

Pakistan should not completely cut-off its military ties with GCC ... we have our own history with the US that shows how much a country loses when it does that to its detriment. However, we can scale down our footprint in those countries and that would not be to spite them but due to the threat we are now facing viz-a-viz India. That of course belies the question, what is our actual military footprint in GCC. I think it has been going down over the decades naturally on its own, as these countries have built their own academies and institutions (we also helped there) and are now more self-sufficient than ever before.

The other point is, GCC, and luckily for them Iran, are not in any state to fight each other. We have seen the KSA-UAE effectiveness or lack there of in Yemen. To think they would win any conflict against Iran is living in a fools paradise. Yes they might shoot down their aircraft and sink their ships, but they would not defeat Iran in any conclusive manner, and not to mention will take huge hits to their own economic infrastructure with destroyed ports and damaged oil fields. They will only fight each other indirectly and through proxies ... which Pakistan is never going to be. We are a nuclear military power and should act as such.

From the way Pakistan has engaged Iran over the past year, I think our policy makers clearly saw what was happening in GCC. These awards and shifts etc dont happen overnight and I am sure Pakistani establishment knew it was coming. Their focus has been to secure our western front, first by making sure Iran knows where we stand (neutrality) and next to secure the Afghan-Pak border, which thankfully is going to happen within the year (by next November hopefully). We all realize in our hearts that war with India, while perhaps not imminent, is coming down the road, and will not be fought over the rights of Kashmiris but over access to dwindling resource of water due to climate change and its impact on agriculture and feeding our large populations.

For that eventuality we need to strengthen our nation both economically and politically as both go hand in hand. Countries can grow apart and come back together and we should not discount some simple facts; that there are many Arabs who have worked closely with Pakistanis and are sympathetic to us; Modi or the current policy makers in GCC will not live forever; history has a way of repeating itself. Keeping military ties intact is therefore a very logical and rational thing to do as we should not act on shortsighted impluses or gains and think of making Pakistan as a powerhouse 50 years down the line.

On the subject of expats. I am of the opinion that remittance act a leverage against Pakistan and in longer run, we need to find ways to reduce our dependence on it if we want to have independent foreign policy.

What has gone unnoticed, that just after the Kashmir issue blew on our face, Saudis announced ban on Pakistani doctors. There is no denying, there is a well coordinated move by GCC to hit Pakistan interests at a time when Pakistan needs support from every quarters.

 

[IbnAbdullah]

Salaam

No one is saying to completely cut the umbilical cord. We don't even do that with India at worst of hostilities. The discussion is purely based on military issue.

We can keep our trade relations as they are, but rather spending our finite resources, energy and enthusiasm for GCC, we must seriously and with resolve start to build the group of Pakistan-Turkey-Malaysia. If you listen to Dr Mahatir, he specifically mentioned the field of defence, for obvious reasons. And if you look at over all geopolitical landscape, there is a convergence going about between Pakistan-China-Russia-Turkey-Malaysia and some other countries, and perhaps you can add Iran and Qatar to the equation as well. GCC does not fit in this this new alignment with their rigid and complex relationship with yanks/Zionists.

You still haven't answered as to who is the perceived threat Pakistan was supposed to work against with GCC? You see, the bottom line is, even for them, this security cooperation has outlived its shelve life. All these signals that they send us just after Kashmir issue, banning our doctors in SA, investment in Muskesh Ambani group who the next day was roaring to pour in money in occupied Kashmir, UAE and Bahrian giving Modi awards. I mean come on, how obvious it could be. They are telling us to lay off and here we are , some of us and those who got their personal interest in GCC (both in civil and military) giving justification and clinging on. Its getting proper cringe to be honest.

Our presence there is because the GCC countries want us to be there - the day they want us gone will be the day we will be gone.

With regards to whom they are keeping us there as a guard against - it could be any one from external (Iran or Israel or whatever monster of the week that worries them) or some internal threat. The point is if they are attacked by any party, our forces there will fight to protect them.

With regards to our resources being used up there - I think we all know that each unit deployed there is very well compensated for. Soldiers like getting stationed there because they earn good money there. So stationing troops there adds to our resources than takes away.

I don't see why it would be a hindrance for our cooperation with Turkey/Malaysia group. There are enough people available in GHQ to be able to handle both commitments simultaneously and than some.

Again - we are there because they are actively paying our forces to be there. If they wish us to leave, they'll say so and we'd do so. They don't have to send complicated signals to us.

They invested with Ambanis - but also bailed us out when we really needed a few months ago. If they didn't want us around - why would they help with billions of dollars?

 

[The SC]

Do you also think Arabs are saying this about Kashmir- "Kashmir is not our problem its India Pakistan issue"?


"THis is how everyone calls it" = classic example of fallacy by numbers. Because everyone calls A B doesnt mean it is correct. Also ,i thought Muslims care about Muslims under oppression, suffering and struggle around the world? Or do you get selective amnesia based on the competing interests you care more about? Like Muslims forgot Uighurs because they didnt want to threaten business and money interests with China? or you forgot Palestinians are Muslim because GCC prefers to keep relations with Israelis good instead? Or GCC forgot Kashmir because relations with India were more important?


When you're looking for excuses, they are never hard to find. Now you've decided to get "specific" about the red line but even Trump recently handed full control of Qods to Israel and what have you guys done about it then?


YUAN. end of story.

You contradict yourself too much..