Pakistan Finalizes S20 Submarine Order from China?

[Rangila]

You should have enough courage to show you own flag.
Last Read about these......
2008 stand off.
2001-2 stand off

The emphasis here is on nukes.
And the thrust on its use.
Not a stadoff situation.

Dont cut your meat with a bread knife.

 

[Thorough Pro]

In any naval conflict, half of indian navy would be busy escorting AAC as far away from the conflict (our reach) as possible, because they know that will be our prime target and we will damage/destroy/sink it and that would be a big blow, a moral death of indian navy and terrorist gang known as Indians. So don't worry about the AAC, its a blessing in disguise for us

This is a good step however the need for naval air arm especially Air Superiority and naval attack planes is very important to deny the Indian Air Craft Carriers, P8s and destroyers to roam freely in Indian Ocean. Without the capability to launch Cruise missiles these submarines do not fulfil the purpose of Second strike platform which is required.

Get Well Soon! to all Indians who just got a sudden outburst of diarrhea.......LOL

 

[I S I]

What does Pakistan need a second strike capability for when its only nuclear threat comes from a nation with a stated no first use policy?

Why did India needed a N bomb considering Pakistan didn't had one?


Ah don't tell me now you made it b/c of Chinese.

 

[Khalid Newazi]

Chinese subs are good, the Song Class submarine showed up at US Carrier training unannounced (undetected) and it is an older version compared to Yuan-Class (S-20 for export).

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online

 

[black-hawk_101]

Pakistan Finalizes S20 Submarine Order from China?
Four of eight submarines will be built in Karachi

10 October 2015

By Bilal Khan

On October 7th Rana Tanveer Hussain, the Minister of Defence Production, announced that the major purchase of eight new submarines from China had been finalized, and that four of the new ships would be built by the Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW).

As discussed in one of Quwa’s previous articles, Pakistan had been negotiating with China for new submarines since 2011, when it was originally reported that the Pakistan Navy was in talks with China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. Ltd (CSOC) for six submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion (S) systems. In April 2015 the Government of Pakistan reportedly announced that it had approved the purchase of eight such submarines, though the cost or type had not been revealed (Defence News). In July 2015 the contract was finalized and handed to the Chinese government for final approval. It seems that Beijing has green-lighted the offer and the deal is now in effect (Dawn News).

This is an important deal for the Pakistan Navy, which has not seen the same amount of attention and investment that the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Air Force enjoy, especially in recent years. Not only will these new submarines restore the deficit left by the retirement of the Daphne SSKs, they will also expand the submarine fleet of the Navy to 11 ships (assuming the two Agosta-70 are retired).

The technical and cost aspects of this deal have not been disclosed, but there are some hints to offer some insight into the submarine type the Pakistan Navy may be procuring. In February 2013 CSOC presented the S20 submarine as its conventional submarine design for export, and it was noted by numerous analysts (such as those of Jane’s) for being identical (at least aesthetically) to the Type-039A/041 Yuan-class diesel-electric submarine (SSK) in service with the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).

The Yuan-class SSK is the mainstay of the PLAN’s modern conventional submarine fleet. The Type-039A/041 is equipped with six 533mm tubes for use with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) torpedoes and anti-ship missiles (AShM). But while the Yuan-class SSK has a submerged displacement of 3600 tons, the export focused S20 submarine is lighter at 2300 tons submerged, more in line with contemporary export-oriented submarines from Germany and France. That said, the lighter S20 submarine design retains the Yuan’s six 533mm torpedo tubes, but it does not include the Yuan’s air independent propulsion (AIP) system by default, though the customer has the option of adding it upon request.

AIP technology is very important for navies seeking to use conventional submarines for extended undersea patrols without being easily detected. As I had written in a previous piece on Quwa, AIP technology allows SSKs to operate underwater without snorkeling for much longer periods of time, potentially as long as multiple weeks at a time! In addition, AIP technology helps in keeping the submarine quiet, thus reducing its acoustic signature, a key advantage in subsurface combat where sound is the main method of detection and engagement of submarines. These advantages are more profound in the South Asian maritime theatre where there is close proximity between the two powers. For Pakistan, the amount of time a submarine can remain undetected will matter more than how far it can travel.

Although China has its own AIP technology (using Stirling cycle engine technology), it is not known if Pakistan is opting for Chinese AIP technology or if it is looking to acquire it from a third party. Pakistan’s Agosta-90Bs SSKs use the French MESMA AIP system, which is based on French nuclear propulsion technology, but generates heat using ethanol and oxygen. It is worth noting that it took four years to negotiate this deal, which is a fairly long time if every aspect of this program were single sourced from China. That said, in the absence of actual information, it is not worth discussing this aspect any further.

Another question is whether this deal will enable Pakistan to acquire assured second-strike capability. It is not known if the submarines the Navy is acquiring from China will be able to carry a submarine launch variant of the Babur land attack cruise missile (LACM), though the lack of specifics surrounding this deal could suggest that sensitive technology may be involved. The Pakistan Navy has not been shy in recent years to express its intention to complete Pakistan’s second strike triad, so the intention is definitely there. I summarized the importance of this feat in my piece about the Pakistan Navy.

The ability to launch SLCMs in the form of say the Pakistani Babur land-attack cruise missile (LACM) would enable Pakistan to achieve assured nuclear second-strike capability. “Second-strike” is the ability to respond to an enemy’s successful use of its nuclear weapons on one’s soil, and “assured” second-strike is the absolute ability to do so regardless of the situation on the ground (e.g. if numerous if not all land-based nuclear launch sites and/or warhead-stocks are destroyed). The availability of as many as eight submarines with SLCM capability will allow Pakistan to complete its nuclear-strike triad, i.e. the capacity to deploy nuclear warheads from the surface (land or sea-surface), air (through aircraft) and underwater.

But nuclear armaments aside, equipping the submarine fleet with even conventionally-tipped LACM capable of reaching targets at 700km is a significant gain for the Pakistan Navy. LACMs can be difficult to detect. They can potentially be equipped with sub-munition dispensers as well, enabling for area-wide strikes. This is a key capability to have when targeting air fields, shipyards, dockyards, radar/air defence sites and other areas where an adversary’s key assets are spread out. It will be interesting to see if Pakistan opts to (or is able to) develop a long-range LACM capable of reaching targets in excess of 1000km (either based on Babur or a new design).

It should be noted however that a strong submarine fleet is only one component of a strong navy. Despite their advantages, submarines can be susceptible to aerial platforms (such as the P-8I Poseidon in service with the Indian Navy) designed to detect and attack subsurface platforms. With the submarine acquisition effort more or less settled at this point, I hope and expect to see some serious attention paid to the Pakistan Navy’s surface fleet, which is in need of modern multi-mission frigates capable of housing and using surface-to-air missiles (SAM) capable of hitting targets in excess of 30km (ideally 50km+ like the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile).

For sure, I think the already 4 Yaun-41 class will be send to Gwadar or Karachi soon. Later this year, 4 of the block-II version of the same submarine might start building in Karachi that will help replace the 2 Agosta-70s from the PN fleet by 2020.

As PN is quite committed with the 3 Agosta-90Bs which will remain in PN services to complete its total 40 years time.

 

[Kambojaric]

What does Pakistan need a second strike capability for when its only nuclear threat comes from a nation with a stated no first use policy?

Because it has no trust for what India says or claims it will do and not do. I mean any nation that names a genocidal bomb after a peaceful individual like Buddha is dodgy to some level (smiling Buddha Lol, Buddha must be rolling around in his metaphorical grave). Either way better be safe than sorry.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Because it has no trust for what India says or claims it will do and not do. I mean any nation that names a genocidal bomb after a peaceful individual like Buddha is dodgy to some level (smiling Buddha Lol, Buddha must be rolling around in his metaphorical grave). Either way better be safe than sorry.

I think PN is not buying the S-20 rather the Type_039A_submarine which is bigger one and China has about 15 of them already in service and there is a good possibility that the 4 of these are coming to PN very soon. I am sure that PN will buy a total of 12 of these submarines till 2025 in 3 batches:

Type-039A Block-I
Type-039A Block-II
Type-039A Block-III

Type 039A submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[I S I]

Chinese subs are good, the Song Class submarine showed up at US Carrier training unannounced (undetected) and it is an older version compared to Yuan-Class (S-20 for export).

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online

Yeah heard about it some time ago. The US Navy men were so dumbfounded by founding out a Chinese submarine there when the submarine surfaced too close to a critical point of their AC. They were surprised by the Chinese advancement in Submarine technology & that incident rang red alerts in Pentagon.

 

[Khalid Newazi]

Yeah heard about it some time ago. The US Navy men were so dumbfounded by founding out a Chinese submarine there when the submarine surfaced too close to a critical point of their AC. They were surprised by the Chinese advancement in Submarine technology & rang red alerts in Pentagon.

And the worst part about it was that it was the Chinese sub that showed itself.

 

[ice_man]

What does Pakistan need a second strike capability for when its only nuclear threat comes from a nation with a stated no first use policy?

inorder to keep the MAD doctrine intact. As long as it exists both nations will keep having a cold war.

 

[I S I]

And the worst part about it was that it was the Chinese sub that showed itself.

Must be a sight of this humiliation.

 

[Mutakalim]

How does this notion of second strike is concieved by Pakistanis against the past (Kargil) reality where Mr. Nawaz Sharif went running towards Clinton and was made to wait for four hours to meet him? NO NUKES WERE USED...Instead, Pakistan retreated by swallowing its pride.

Conventional wisdom: One who draws his gun from the holster first, survives.

Pakistan only flaunts.
Sorry. All foam, no beer.

You should be sorry for hiding your flags. My dear internet warrior.
@Horus
@waz

 

[Bilal9]

You should be sorry for hiding your flags. My dear internet warrior.

Ha ha ha - its probably some meek, scrawny little five footer with a deep psychosis stemming from being yelled at by both Ammi and Bibi. Maybe at the same time.

Hence the Superman and Spiderman fantasies....

 

[Rangila]

You should be sorry for hiding your flags. My dear internet warrior.

You don't see 2 flags fluttering?

 

[Bilal9]

You don't see 2 flags fluttering?

It's 5:20 AM in Caracas, Venezuela right now. That tells me you are either lying or don't sleep. I'd believe the former.

Other than that your credibility is basically shot for that one lie of false-flagging.
This is bizarre. None of the Venezuelans I know are named 'Rangila'.

B.S. has to have a limit - you know.....