Pakistan Failed state?

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

They are still distinct nation states with distinct cultures and language. Ease of travel and employment within a certain group of countries is merely an easing of the paperwork involved - why would someone uproot their family (or just themselves) and move to a foreign land with a foreign language and culture and leave behind friends and family unless they believed that the move (and all the accompanying hardship) would be offset by the chance of a better experience (financial and/or life related) in another country?

Distinct nations working together to build their economy. And keep their citizens happy And that's why we south Asians go to these countries with better system and better life. They do not come to settle in Pakistan.

So the question remains, do you apply that argument consistently and at what point does the flow of human capital out of a country pose an issue and why? Is said flow offset by the inflow of human capital from other States?

My argument is according to the current situation. The system in Pakistan has failed.

No one here said that they were living off the BISP handouts in the US and very happy and successful, nor would I consider someone (living in Pakistan or outside without the need for BISP) credible were they to claim that 'Pakistanis receiving BISP are happy and prosperous. The data speaks for itself, but within the confines of what it measured. The OP did not offer opinions on whether those receiving the data were ecstatic and successful, he offered supporting data about the buying power of money provided under the BISP and how many people it impacted. Associated data that measures the attitudes of BISP recipients has not been provided or measured (as far as I know), but would be a logical next step. Again, whether scientifically gathered data is discussed by Pakistanis resident in Pakistan or living outside Pakistan is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the data not be misrepresented.

Then every single country in the world has failed their citizens, unless of course you wish to only apply this argument in the case of Pakistan, in which case you have to explain why you wish to restrict it just to Pakistan.

See title, and he is asking, whether Pakistan is a failed state or rising.

Only the relevant part is, people want to immigrate, because the system has failed to provide opportunities to them.

Now if you are willing to say that this happens in US, or other countries too, they accept their wrong doing and they try to change the system. More over, they are able to compensate most of the short comings with different bailout. That is the system.

Which system in Pakistan is giving it's at least 50% of output. Judiciary, education, security, electricity? None. In other countries, I am now talking about developed ones, more than 50% service is generated by these systems if not 100%.

 

[nForce]

Actually I pulled it out of the rear of Shan-e-Hind. It was stuck up there along with his derogatory comments about Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Damn, I threw that 'time of the month' comment out there without any clue whatsoever about your gender ... I am generalizing here, but isn't that phrase 'my foot' typically used by women?

You really don't have any rebuttal, don't you ? I had higher expectations from a veteran member.

 

[Shamain]

It only sounds funny when you're a pisskologically damaged Indian troll. The argument being made on this thread about the BISP and its effect on Pakistanis is based on statistics from Pakistan, not statistics from the US, so how exactly does the the place of residence of someone discussing these statistics matter?

Wow, I knew I was embarrassing you by taking apart your ridiculous charade, but I didn't expect you to just come out and accept that you really are incapable of arguing the merits of the topic, and therefore resort to nonsense like 'overseas Pakistanis should not argue the positive aspects of Pakistan'. The question I raised proves everything - if the statistics related to a particular subject are obtained from Pakistan, then how does the place of residence of the individuals discussing said statistics impact the validity of the arguments being made, based on said statistics?

Of course, compared to Sweden Pakistan is a 'failed State', there is always room for improvement, but that is why I made the argument earlier that without some kind of a reference point (comparison to other countries if you will) these numbers trying to make sense of the state of a people are somewhat meaningless. So you contrast the data against similar systems to get a sense of the state of your particular system. This particular set of data (Happiness index) suggests that Pakistan is 'successful' in contrast to India, but 'failing' relative to Western European nations.

Few things:

This indian troll shan e ibrahim has destroyed this thread and he does in every single one.
Yet iwill comment.

1. How a person who says he has left pakistan for better opportunities and thinks pakistan wasnt offering him any good and is no longer living there as a pakistani citizen ,how can that person decide pakistan is a failed state??

2. If someone was able2 leave pakistan for lets say west and find a good career job , then it means Pakistan did give that person something good , something worthy that made him perform well overseas.

3. There are millions of americns and brits who want to and who leave usa and uk for better job opportunities overseas, and thre is a large american and brit overseas based workforce, so does that mean uk and usa are a failed state?

4. For someone who said that a certain pakistani poster is ignorant cuz he doent want criticism on pakistan, can i tell u, for last 2 decades ,no country in the world has been criticized the way pakistan has been. Despite cooperating with usa on their bs war on terror, even till date what pakistn and her security forces get is ,extreme malinging of their image in media and everywhere else in the west.

Constructive criticism is good.
But
.گر اگر کسی کو ذہنی طور پہ معذور کرنا ہو۔ اتنی تنقید کرو
That they would be so mentlly crippled, they will lose all the wars even before they 'had started' to face them.

And the suicide troll would say dont compare pakistan with india as well as with other nations, then a while later he says , compare pakistan with europe, sweeden etc etc.!!!

And even when compared with western states, guess what, there will be some indices and fronts where Pakistan cud be seen equally or better performing than those developed nations.

But then again do as much self pity that u cud never think of standing on ur feet and facing ur woes.

Why i have always seen this bs coming very aggressively from indian media sources that Pakistan is a failed state??

Do ppl think by calling pakistan a failed state, we pakistanis will surrender our resilience and will merge back with some lame nation. No . We are we and we never give up.

 

[hunter_hunted]

Or Both!

Or is an Indian !!!!

 

[Kaniska]

These days you often get lot of negative publicity directed toward Pakistan. Various self serving "Think Tanks" have garnered their own figures and built oft repeated claim of Pakistamn being failed state. So let us look at what makes Pakistan just another Somalia on the Indus Basin.

No.1 - Social Security

Pakistan is the only country in South Asia that provides income support to poor familes along the lines of welfare support found in wealthy Western European countries. The foundation of welfare state was established back in 1980 under the Islamic Ordinance of Zakat which required between 2.5% to 5% tax on the wealthy that went to widows and needy. By 1983 upto Rs2.5 billion was being disbursed to about 4 million people. However the system was inefficient and the Zakat Committees assigned to select familes were accused of favoritism. Despite this it was still the begining of social welfare and many a widow or elderly with no family to support them survived on the Zakat payments.

However in 2008 Pakistan government launched the ambitious national Benazir Income Support Programme (BISP) which is non-conditional cash payment every month as income support for the poor. The amount set for 2015 is Rs1,500 which allows a family of 5-6 to buy enough flour to last 25 days. All claimant's recieve BISP ATM Cards through which the money is debited to their accounts. A additional premium of Rs1,200 is added to mother's for each child in primary school to the maximum of 3 children.

Eligibility


In order to be eligible for cash payments under BISP, families must earn less than RS 6,000 per month; equivalent to $67.[1] Further eligibility requirements stipulate that:

• Families must have a female applicant holding a valid ID card
• An individual applicant must be a widowed or divorced female without male family members
• Eligible families include those with physically or mentally disabled individuals

Families deemed ineligible for cash payments through BISP include those with:[1]

• Members employed by the Pakistani government, army, or any other government-affiliated agency
• Members drawing a pension or receiving post-retirement benefits from the government
• Family members owning more than 3 acres of farmland or more than 80 square yards of residential land
• Members receiving income from other sources
• Members holding a machine readable passport
• Members with a National Identity Card for Overseas citizens
• Members with a bank account excluding microfinance banks and those catering to low-income families

The allocation for the financial year 2014-15 is over $1 billion ( Rs100 billion ) to provide cash assistance to 5.5 million families, which constitutes almost 20% of the entire population. The Program aims to cover almost 40% of the population below the poverty line. The $1 billion forms significant amount of the federal budget this does though indicate a change from security state to welfare state.

Stats and facts

BISP provides direct financial assistance to poor families through monthly cash payments to buy essential household items such as food and medicine, and to send children to school. A female representative of the family receives these cash transfers directly on the BISP debit card, helping them to participate in domestic decision-making.

Payments are currently being made to 5 million families (benefiting 30 million individuals). The BISP income support is expected to reach 50 million or 7 million familes by 2017. The introduction of the BISP debit card has helped the cash payments reach the poorest and most vulnerable.

BISP conducted countrywide Poverty Survey/Census for the first time and collected the data of almost 180 million people and 27 million households using GPS devices for the informed decision making (to cope with natural disasters and other emergencies). The poverty census completed in record time of one year across all Pakistan including Azad Jammu & Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan and FATA. The World Bank and UK DFID was involved in the preparing the structure of BISP working with Pakistan government.

Overall the cross party consensus is that the BISP named in honour of the late ex PM Benezir Bhutto who was killed by Taliban in 2007 has been extremely succesfull. There were problems as in 2008 the monthly payments were made via Post Office but soon reports came that Post Men were charging money from the poor female claimants to cash money. Therefore BISP Debit card was introdiced and now all claimants recieve their payments through the BISP Debit card.

View attachment 230229

Benazir Income Support Program (BISP) ran by a independent federal authority — patronized by President and Prime Minister and managed by a high powered Board headed by its Chairperson —through the Act of the Parliament in 2010. The present minster of BISP is Ms Marvi Memon.

More than 7 million beneficiary families have been identified through Poverty Scorecard Survey for disbursing Rs1500/month through ‘branchless banking system’ (Smart Card, Mobile Phone, Debit Card). The focus on poverty alleviation through empowering the women, BISP has so far disbursed more than Rs346 billion to the deserving and needy of the country with relative transparency in about 4 years time through the elected representatives of the people, regardless of their party affiliation. Various studies done thus far show that the system is delivering to the end customer- the poor claimant.

At 12 per cent of the minimum wage, the cash transfer will remain too low to distort the incentive to work or create a ‘dependency culture’. And to ensure effectiveness, the poverty scorecard survey will need to be rerun every few years.

Further improvements now in the pipeline are Waseela-e-Taleem Program, initiated with generous help of the World Bank and DFID, to send 3 million children to school through additional cash incentives of Rs.200 per child. Payments at the moment do not require claomants to send children to school but this is about to change as attendance below 80% will result in reductions of BISP.

Chart from the Economist showing the relative position of Pakistan's on spending on welfare compared to some other countries. As can be seen Pakistan is now spending nearly 16% of GDP on social welfare secondly only to Malaysia at 26%.

*A ‘welfare state’ for Pakistan’s poor? - The Express Tribune
*Pakistan strives to become a welfare state
*Pakistan: reaching the poorest through cash transfers - Case study - GOV.UK
*Social Safety Nets and Poverty in Pakistan (A Case Study of BISP in Tehsil Mankera District Bhakkar)
*http://www.economist.com/news/asia/...fare-states-spread-themselves-thinly-widefare
*Benazir Income Support Programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have tried to only include reputable links above. Some are from United Kingdom's DFID, others from Economist and one from research paper on BISP. Without a doubt BISP has been a relative success and one of the few great things Pakistan has achieved in the last decade.

As can be seen World Bank, USAID, UK DFID, ADB have all joined in with Ministry of Finance, Gov., of Pakistan which underlies the success of this project since 2008. Indeed new schemes like cash grants for setting up business or vocational training have been launched to prevent people becoming dependant on welfare culture.

Below is the actual link to BISP website of the government agency handling income support payments.

*Benazir Income Support Programme

CORRECTION: The BISP payment rate for 2015 is Rs1,500 per month.

Nice post....Keep it up with your effort...These are quite new information about Pakstan for me...and i am happy would like to know more and more postive things about your nation ..

 

[ghoul]

The term "failed state" is quite dumb in my opinion. No wonder Americans coined it. In 80s, people Angola would be a failed state, but is it one now? The term "failed" implies that a state is hopeless and should seize to exist as an independent state.

As for Pakistan, yes it's a poor country, but I wouldn't call it hopeless or "failed". On a per capita basis, Pakistanis enjoy better living standards than some neighbouring states like Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Nepal etc. The economic growth rate would cross 5% mark within 2 years, so I wouldn't call it a hopeless state.

 

[Shamain]

The term "failed state" is quite dumb in my opinion. No wonder Americans coined it. In 80s, people Angola would be a failed state, but is it one now? The term "failed" implies that a state is hopeless and should seize to exist as an independent state.

As for Pakistan, yes it's a poor country, but I wouldn't call it hopeless or "failed". On a per capita basis, Pakistanis enjoy better living standards than some neighbouring states like Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Nepal etc. The economic growth rate would cross 5% mark within 2 years, so I wouldn't call it a hopeless state.

Yea speaking of dumb terms,not to forget the 'good taliban bad taliban' terms were coined by none other than americans. Yeah the uber progessive nation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You really don't have any rebuttal, don't you ? I had higher expectations from a veteran member.

That was a darn good rebuttal in my view, of course I'm not really discussing the merits of my reply to Shan-E-Hind with you beyond what I've already stated in my first couple of replies to you on this thread.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Few things:

This indian troll shan e ibrahim has destroyed this thread and he does in every single one.
Yet iwill comment.

1. How a person who says he has left pakistan for better opportunities and thinks pakistan wasnt offering him any good and is no longer living there as a pakistani citizen ,how can that person decide pakistan is a failed state??

And the vice versa

''''The BISP income support is expected to reach 50 million or 7 million familes by 2017'''

This means so many people have financial problem, and is outcome of bad governance and mismanagement. It is good that they are supporting, but who is brining citizen of Pakistan to this level of household financial crisis.

2. If someone was able2 leave pakistan for lets say west and find a good career job , then it means Pakistan did give that person something good , something worthy that made him perform well overseas.

This means the country that person was living in had not provided good jobs. With high standard of living. And the person would have failed to get any opportunity.

The criteria of a good job differs from person to person hence I would say, opportunity.

3. There are millions of americns and brits who want to and who leave usa and uk for better job opportunities overseas, and thre is a large american and brit overseas based workforce, so does that mean uk and usa are a failed state?

I have already mentioned how their economy works, and the VRF visa travelling schemes.

4. For someone who said that a certain pakistani poster is ignorant cuz he doent want criticism on pakistan, can i tell u, for last 2 decades ,no country in the world has been criticized the way pakistan has been. Despite cooperating with usa on their bs war on terror, even till date what pakistn and her security forces get is ,extreme malinging of their image in media and everywhere else in the west.

Pakistan has been Accused for no reason and less criticized.

There is a difference, lady.

Constructive criticism is good.
But
.گر اگر کسی کو ذہنی طور پہ معذور کرنا ہو۔ اتنی تنقید کرو
That they would be so mentlly crippled, they will lose all the wars even before they 'had started' to face them.

And the suicide troll would say dont compare pakistan with india as well as with other nations, then a while later he says , compare pakistan with europe, sweeden etc etc.!!!

And even when compared with western states, guess what, there will be some indices and fronts where Pakistan cud be seen equally or better performing than those developed nations.

But then again do as much self pity that u cud never think of standing on ur feet and facing ur woes.

Why i have always seen this bs coming very aggressively from indian media sources that Pakistan is a failed state??

Do ppl think by calling pakistan a failed state, we pakistanis will surrender our resilience and will merge back with some lame nation. No . We are we and we never give up.

You want to compare Pakistan with India as a bench mark of success. The country which is no different from ours when comes to Social Security, and itself in doldrums?

Secondly, when I say Pakistan has Failed, it means the CIVIL GOVERNMENT system has failed. Pakistan is a democratic , republic with touch of Islam.

When Military comes out of barracks after every decade , what do you call that? Success of the system? Amazing.

 

[Imran Khan]

i am against giving money cash we better make factories and give them jobs with this money

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

i am against giving money cash we better make factories and give them jobs with this money

That is my point. The bad governance and mismanagement has led to financial crisis among households and now they are compensating it by giving money and all.

 

[pigtaker]

of course you are, what else could you be?

 

[Shamain]

Troll i am neither reading nor responding to ur posts. Dont dare quote me again.

i am against giving money cash we better make factories and give them jobs with this money

You genius.

 

[Imran Khan]

Troll i am neither reading nor responding to ur posts. Dont dare quote me again.

You genius.

main ne kab trolling ker di bhi

 

[nForce]

That was a darn good rebuttal in my view, of course I'm not really discussing the merits of my reply to Shan-E-Hind with you beyond what I've already stated in my first couple of replies to you on this thread.

What ? Fabricating data ? And then screaming waving your hands above your head ? Show me the data, which justifies your comment that Indians are leaving the country due to rape and violence.

As a matter of fact it's other way around and I have already provided you with credible sources for that.

You want to live in denial, it's your choice and none of my business, but don't you drag my society and demean it with false claims. I will make you eat your words.