Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[PakShaheen79]

You’re in a rough neighborhood – I get it! I don’t begrudge you your nukes, although I’m not entirely convinced of its intrinsic value as a deterrent.

My “shoot yourself in the foot” criticism was meant to highlight Pakistani contribution to the F-16 debacle. Starting with Benazir Bhutto, what Benazir Bhutto did in 1989 was akin to stepping on the gas in a school zone knowing a police officer was lurking in the shadows with a speed gun.

Simple question to anyone who can answer, why did a smart women like Benazir place an order and pre-pay for 71 F-16’s in 1989 when she knew the risks – why not go for the Mirage 2K or equivalent non-US tech? Was she and PAF so enamored by the F-16’s that she gambled a fortune on a crapshoot? Clearly she miscalculated and yet no one here faults her for it. And then there is your former Chief Nuclear scientist Dr. Verbal Diarrhea (AQ Khan), this attention seeking narcissist blew the lid off Pakistan’s clandestine program in an interview to a London publication in ’87 and for this he was anointed Nation Hero despite costing Pakistan several billions in US and Japanese aid. It is easy to blame Bush, IMHO he had no choice he wasn’t going to risk impeachment over F-16’s to Pakistan in his first term in office.

No one is above the law; there may be extenuating circumstances the presence of an existential threat qualifies(Indian nukes) but Benazir closed that door when she told congress Pakistan did not need nukes if she was given F-16’s and other hi-tech weapons.

Had it not been end of "Jihad" in Afghanistan in 1989 those 71 F-16 were bound to be in PAF once way or other. CIA\US administrations knew since beginning about Pakistani nuclear program and all this was used as an excuse like it is going to be used again to embargo current deal of 18 Block 52 if Pakistan reject KL bill.

Now I pray US put ban on these F-16 after Pakistan rejects this KL bill (which is nothing more than a vice to crush Pakistan nuclear program and to topple Pakistani military). If it happen now, it will really become difficult for current corrupt and ready made government to survive.

Latest development! There is an other bomb went near Indian embassy in Kabul few min back, I thing despite all the technologies of world there blame will be once again put on Pakistan. So things are moving in right direction.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

if we reject K-L bill does it is going to effect TUSAS tender to upgrade our current fleet of f-16

 

[PakShaheen79]

if we reject K-L bill does it is going to effect TUSAS tender to upgrade our current fleet of f-16

Don't know but one thing is for sure that all this so called Pak US relations are about arm twisting and bulling. Time for nation to get on its feet. 1.5 Billion dollar in total 24 Billion dollars annual budget is like a pennants. Out of this 1.5 Billion a good portion will fly back to US through contractors and NGOs.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

Don't know but one thing is for sure that all this so called Pak US relations are about arm twisting and bulling. Time for nation to get on its feet. 1.5 Billion dollar in total 24 Billion dollars annual budget is like a pennants. Out of this 1.5 Billion a good portion will fly back to US through contractors and NGOs.

yeah i have now been fully out of the idea of new f-16 for PAF from US as i have now sense the side effects of having US friendship
now in my view PAF should go for first 50(block I) thunders within the end of 2010 and further 100 thunders of block II within before 2014
and not even think of buying j-10 from china because it will divert our effort from block II program for thunders​

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Once the things start to un-ravel---they move at a lightening speed---non supply of the Blk 52 would be like a death blow to PAF---it will set us back by another 5 years---minimum---.

JF 17 blk 1 or 2 is no answer to blk 52---readers need to understand that some of this equipment, we must have now---to be on some kind of parity with our opponent---the procurement of the aircraft cannot be just simply delayed---millitaries of the world donot operate like that.

Blk 52 is a now thing---JF 17 1 and 2 are tomorrow's issues.

So---if people think that if the war had contd against russia---we would have had the F 16's---yes we 'may' have---that might have become a strategic issue for america---Bush senior may or maynot have vetoed the bill---Bush sr was a politically weaker and less savy president than Reagan---Bush had no political clout to vetoe the bill---there was a good chance that he would have signed the bill even at that time---.

This bill didnot come as a surprise to anyone----if that is what the pakistanis are thinking---nobody pulled a rabbit out of the hat---this bill was presented many many times---birght as a day light---and was rejected the same number of times but the last---the only fool in this scenario was the PAF heirarchy---it was their demand for the 'best of the best'---possibly Benazir wanted to please the millitary---Zardari could not have gotten anything out of it---because u s defence contractors donot pay any bribes according to the law---other than that rest of the world knew that the sanctions are coming on pakistan.

There is too much un-predictability in our weapons procurement---it needs to change---the mindset needs to be changed.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

Once the things start to un-ravel---they move at a lightening speed---non supply of the Blk 52 would be like a death blow to PAF---it will set us back by another 5 years---minimum---.

JF 17 blk 1 or 2 is no answer to blk 52---readers need to understand that some of this equipment, we must have now---to be on some kind of parity with our opponent---the procurement of the aircraft cannot be just simply delayed---millitaries of the world donot operate like that.

Blk 52 is a now thing---JF 17 1 and 2 are tomorrow's issues.

So---if people think that if the war had contd against russia---we would have had the F 16's---yes we 'may' have---that might have become a strategic issue for america---Bush senior may or maynot have vetoed the bill---Bush sr was a politically weaker and less savy president than Reagan---Bush had no political clout to vetoe the bill---there was a good chance that he would have signed the bill even at that time---.

This bill didnot come as a surprise to anyone----if that is what the pakistanis are thinking---nobody pulled a rabbit out of the hat---this bill was presented many many times---birght as a day light---and was rejected the same number of times but the last---the only fool in this scenario was the PAF heirarchy---it was their demand for the 'best of the best'---possibly Benazir wanted to please the millitary---Zardari could not have gotten anything out of it---because u s defence contractors donot pay any bribes according to the law---other than that rest of the world knew that the sanctions are coming on pakistan.

There is too much un-predictability in our weapons procurement---it needs to change---the mindset needs to be changed.

Agreed that's why China is only relible option as far as weapon systems are concenrned.
PAF hierarchy was not that faulty but still they ignored Pak US previous history. (7th fleet of US Navy in 71 war, embargo after 65 war etc) Real fault was to not having a back up plan.
Afghan war was a strategicc oppertunity for US to topple Russians in Afghanistan... Pakistani leadership was not that Savvy about repercusions of unipoler world and that caused whole F-16 drama.

Problem is Pakistan is once again in catch-22 viz-a-viz Pak-US relations. I think EX-ACM of PAF has already said that F-16 deal is last one from US.

As far as bbeing in parity with IAF, I don't think single squadron of F-16 Block 52 will do magic but still these machines are best PAF can get (if they ever reach here)...

Rest i can grantee that if war was not there after Mumbai I am not seeing it in next 5-7 years provided Pakistan keep avoiding traps like Kerry Lugar bill till that time.But Pakistan will have to work extreme hard in foreign relations till that time so that we can secure other critical defense deals like U-214 and Erieye.

 

[Patriot]

PAF should have never gone for F-17 Block52.Rafale or even Mirage200S-5 was a much better option.We could buy upto 50 Rafale (not buy any J10s) and later buy more when PAF have funds.

 

[BATMAN]

Hi,

You surprised me----you knew about Benazir paying cash for the F 16's---the F 16 debacle created by Benazir---.

I remember it like daylight---reading her comments in the pakistani paper at that time---before us others have asked for financing these planes---but us---we will pay cash upfront for these planes.

At time I told my friends---we are doomed---you never buy anything from u s on cash---and never upfront---always finance with a condition of big penalty and have a second alternative open.


It is shocking to see my pakistani friends still not understanding the F 16 fiasco---and accepting the fault---just because they gave us the leeway---didnot mean that we could get away with it.

That is why I have been talking about the switch over to the M2k at that time or even before in 83---84.

Well Sir, I don't remember any thing from that time but now we know but this is too late.
In this senario best possible solution for PAF is to buy M2K retired from UAE! will you agree to this?

 

[almasilyas]

O c'mon guys don't say anything like this.....if they threatened us then believe me on the very next day their supply will be stop/shutdown .......can't you u see they need Pakistan to go back in their countries.........

 

[PakShaheen79]

O c'mon guys don't say anything like this.....if they threatened us then believe me on the very next day their supply will be stop/shutdown .......can't you u see they need Pakistan to go back in their countries.........

In presence of present US installed government in Islamabad anything is possible. That is one reason for concern despite the fact that US again need Pakistan to win a war which US along with all world can't win in Afghanistan.

 

[PakShaheen79]

PAF should have never gone for F-17 Block52.Rafale or even Mirage200S-5 was a much better option.We could buy upto 50 Rafale (not buy any J10s) and later buy more when PAF have funds.

Dear time and again it has debated that this was not F-16 alone the sole reason but the weapons like AIM-120C5 which force PAF to go into this deal plus funding was also done by US, IIRC.

 

[Taha Samad]

Something to bear in mind is that the PAF have a very strong history and experiance with F16s, the F16 is combat proven where as the JF17 and J10 are not. Also the Blk 52 are exspensive but would give the Paf a High tech muti role capability which is very much what the PAF is looking for.

I totally agree with you.It would not be a good decision to add a new system to PAF and spend a lot of resources on associated infrastructure and stuff when we are already spending a lot of money in developing our capability to produce fighters locally.

Secondly PAF needed a high tech fighter in its inventory till 2015 when FC-20's take up that role(assuming FC-20 will be somewhat advanced than the blk 52 F-16's or atleast equivalent).

Now if we consider the numbers the importance of f-16's won't diminish even after FC-20's arrive

PAF got around 120 F-7P
60 F-7PG
around 100-150 Mirages
40 odd A-5's
45 F-16's
i.e we need to replace around 260-320 aircrafts

Now as most reports suggest we would have first 50 JF-17's by 2011.After 2011 if we assume a rate of 25 planes per year as suggested by ACM in his interview that means by 2015 we would have 150 JF-17's.
add to them 63 F-16's(MLU+blk 52) +36 FC-20's+60 F-7pG's that makes a total of 310 fighters.So we still would be operating around 100 odd fighters from the last century.So none the less f-16's would remain our top line fighter for almost one more decade.

regards,
taha

 

[batmannow]

news alert, PAKISTAN GOT F-16 C& D , IN , USA
duniya news!
just now!

 

[Adios Amigo]

woooooooooooooooooooooooow great, made us wait 4 a loong loong time to hear this good news.:

 

[batmannow]

documents were handed over to , AIR CHIEF MARSHALL in a ceremony , in texas

GOD, its blk 52 , c & d, 16 aircrafts, will reach in JAN!