Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Quwa]

CX-1...?

too heavy.

 

[Khafee]

too heavy.

A miniaturized one?

 

[Quwa]

A miniaturized one?

You'd probably have to design a smaller airbreathing engine (ramjet or scramjet) to do it though, otherwise you'd heavily compromise the range and payload when miniaturizing a supersonic AShM. That's why India and Russia are basically designing a new missile in the BrahMos NG

 

[Rank]

 

[denel]

Indeed. Really, the clean break happened with the JF-17B, which probably led to the Block-3. Either way, it's a platform with a digital FBW, decent payload, decent range, an AESA radar, and a modern EW/ECM and avionics suite. What more do you need? Just add more of these fighters, and make them as good as possible.

If there's money floating about for a fighter import, I'd much rather put it towards the Denel Dynamics Marlin, A-Darter, Raptor III, and Umbani/Tariq projects. Let's make these munitions in Pakistan (turn-key). Let's also develop a lightweight supersonic AShM (similar to the BrahMos NG), perhaps using SomChem's LRTM R&D as the basis.

Absolutely, that would be the next level of integration work. There is a lot of synergies from DD which can be had. Again I dont see integration with them being a challenge.

 

[mshan44]

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Not a lot of people will like what I write here but my 2C worth.

The most potent platform in PAF inventory today is the Viper with JHMCS and armed with AMRAAM!

logically, if things were good between US and GoP we should have gone for used F-16 and upgraded them in phases instead of buying new build platform due to lack of funds.

Current option available to us; get our 8 F-16's already built for us by asking our Arab brethren to fund the Aid component. They were being bought by a mixture of GoP sovereign funds and US Military Aid. Look for second hand a/c after the Afghan deal is done and delivered.

The core capability of the PAF for some time will remain around the 70 odd F-16's. Our deep strike will remain with Mirage a/c with various blocks of JF-17's rounding off the force with new build increasingly capable a/c with each block being introduced.

The game is, as we saw it, post Pulwama, is he who sees the enemy and blinds him first and strikes with long range weapons has more chances to score hits. This lesson clearly points towards a core of continuously upgraded force of EW & AWACS birds coupled with long range radars (or AESA equipped) equipped a/c with proven long range A2A missiles.

The role of the deep strike interdiction a/c is forgotten in the hype of shooting down of the SU and the Mig but we need to look for options to get replacements for these aircraft sooner than later.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Not a lot of people will like what I write here but my 2C worth.

The most potent platform in PAF inventory today is the Viper with JHMCS and armed with AMRAAM!

logically, if things were good between US and GoP we should have gone for used F-16 and upgraded them in phases instead of buying new build platform due to lack of funds.

Current option available to us; get our 8 F-16's already built for us by asking our Arab brethren to fund the Aid component. They were being bought by a mixture of GoP sovereign funds and US Military Aid. Look for second hand a/c after the Afghan deal is done and delivered.

The core capability of the PAF for some time will remain around the 70 odd F-16's. Our deep strike will remain with Mirage a/c with various blocks of JF-17's rounding off the force with new build increasingly capable a/c with each block being introduced.

The game is, as we saw it, post Pulwama, is he who sees the enemy and blinds him first and strikes with long range weapons has more chances to score hits. This lesson clearly points towards a core of continuously upgraded force of EW & AWACS birds coupled with long range radars (or AESA equipped) equipped a/c with proven long range A2A missiles.

The role of the deep strike interdiction a/c is forgotten in the hype of shooting down of the SU and the Mig but we need to look for options to get replacements for these aircraft sooner than later.

I agree.

I think we've been taking some things for granted, but we're really, really forgetting how good the JF-17 actually is because we're always looking across the fence. The JF-17B/Block 3 is a 4+ gen platform -- digital 3-axis FBW, single panel display MFD, HMD/S, AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM, etc.

This is a really good baseline, all we need to do now is invest in the best possible electronics (including radar) and air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions. Why import a few fighters when we can put that money into a GaN-based AESA radar and GaN TRM-based EW/ECM for the JF-17, and deploy those in sizable numbers?

Even with deep strike, the JF-17 can get the job done provided we give it the right munitions. If the existing Ra'ad can't fit, then we need to develop a variant of Ra'ad that does. Sure, it'd be complex and pricey, but it wouldn't be as difficult and expensive as importing a strike-capable jet IMHO.

 

[GriffinsRule]

If the existing Ra'ad can't fit, then we need to develop a variant of Ra'ad that does. Sure, it'd be complex and pricey, but it wouldn't be as difficult and expensive as importing a strike-capable jet IMHO.

This is what I have been trying to repeatedly say as well! Regardless of how I love the sleek lines of the Mirages, we can't keep them in service past a certain point just because they carry a strategic weapon. Instead that effort would be better spent on developing a newer/better/smarter weapon system that can be carried by every platform in your inventory.

 

[araz]

This is what I have been trying to repeatedly say as well! Regardless of how I love the sleek lines of the Mirages, we can't keep them in service past a certain point just because they carry a strategic weapon. Instead that effort would be better spent on developing a newer/better/smarter weapon system that can be carried by every platform in your inventory.

For Pak to run two parralel programmes side by side would be impossible economically and managerially. So it is either a case of JFT OR XYZ. So there is a need for an intermediate fighter. The factor most responsible for the delay is finance. While People are blaming PAF for not replacing 190 legacy fighters they dont look at the fact that our much more richer neighbour has also not been able to do so.
With EU countries, UK, France all reducing fighter numbers it is obvious that thew price factor has begun to hit everyone. We on the other hand in spite of our weak financial position cannot afford to do so. So where do we go and what do we do? I dont think the wesern platforms are affordable anymore with the exception of the 16s due to our established setup. The restrictions on the 16s mean we still cannot achieve our aims fully. So do we go for J10Cs or J11 series if available? that is the question worth ananswer!!!
Regards

 

[GriffinsRule]

For Pak to run two parralel programmes side by side would be impossible economically and managerially. So it is either a case of JFT OR XYZ. So there is a need for an intermediate fighter. The factor most responsible for the delay is finance. While People are blaming PAF for not replacing 190 legacy fighters they dont look at the fact that our much more richer neighbour has also not been able to do so.
With EU countries, UK, France all reducing fighter numbers it is obvious that thew price factor has begun to hit everyone. We on the other hand in spite of our weak financial position cannot afford to do so. So where do we go and what do we do? I dont think the wesern platforms are affordable anymore with the exception of the 16s due to our established setup. The restrictions on the 16s mean we still cannot achieve our aims fully. So do we go for J10Cs or J11 series if available? that is the question worth ananswer!!!
Regards

A weapons program is such cheaper than a jet. I am proposing new weapons for jf-17 as it's the mainstay of our fleet for next three decades

 

[messiach]

Definitely yes, case in mirages.

A weapons program is such cheaper than a jet. U am proposing new weapons for jf-17 as it's the mainstay of our fleet for next three decades

 

[MastanKhan]

Not a lot of people will like what I write here but my 2C worth.

The most potent platform in PAF inventory today is the Viper with JHMCS and armed with AMRAAM!

logically, if things were good between US and GoP we should have gone for used F-16 and upgraded them in phases instead of buying new build platform due to lack of funds.

Current option available to us; get our 8 F-16's already built for us by asking our Arab brethren to fund the Aid component. They were being bought by a mixture of GoP sovereign funds and US Military Aid. Look for second hand a/c after the Afghan deal is done and delivered.

The core capability of the PAF for some time will remain around the 70 odd F-16's. Our deep strike will remain with Mirage a/c with various blocks of JF-17's rounding off the force with new build increasingly capable a/c with each block being introduced.

The game is, as we saw it, post Pulwama, is he who sees the enemy and blinds him first and strikes with long range weapons has more chances to score hits. This lesson clearly points towards a core of continuously upgraded force of EW & AWACS birds coupled with long range radars (or AESA equipped) equipped a/c with proven long range A2A missiles.

The role of the deep strike interdiction a/c is forgotten in the hype of shooting down of the SU and the Mig but we need to look for options to get replacements for these aircraft sooner than later.

Hi,

You are correct in your assessment. Why did we not go for the used F16's earlier---.

Was the Paf too sure of itself about what it could get---.

 

[Dazzler]

 

[Rank]

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