Pakistan Could Have Become an Asian Tiger By Now

[INDIC]

It's hard to argue with someone who lacks basic understanding of obvious data and clear words.

It's small wonder that Indian kids rank at the bottom of PISA and TIMSS world rankings.

Haq's Musings: PISA & TIMSS Confirm Low Quality of Indian Education

I was again expecting such kinds of reply from you, you still failed to prove the point you made.

 

[AhsanAmin]

RiazHaq said: ↑
It's hard to argue with someone who lacks basic understanding of obvious data and clear words.
It's small wonder that Indian kids rank at the bottom of PISA and TIMSS world rankings.
Haq's Musings: PISA & TIMSS Confirm Low Quality of Indian Education
I was again expecting such kinds of reply from you, you still failed to prove the point you made.

I really do not know about the kind of education Indian Kids get. However, some Indian Institutes of Technology are very highly ranked and respected in the world universities for quality of their graduates and research of their faculty. They have very good higher education standards.

 

[Janmejay]

@INDIC ,@MohitV ,@Shak ,@GURU DUTT ,@sreekumar ,@Capt.Popeye ,see haq is befooling people

 

[INDIC]

@INDIC ,@MohitV ,@Shak ,@GURU DUTT ,@sreekumar ,@Capt.Popeye ,see haq is befooling people

Thanks for the link, so its confirmed now even by World Bank that poverty rose in Pakistan when it decreased in rest of South Asia. @RiazHaq what's your views about it.

South Asia - Growth and Poverty html

 

[Armstrong]

@INDIC ,@MohitV ,@Shak ,@GURU DUTT ,@sreekumar ,@Capt.Popeye ,see haq is befooling people

Where is the source for this ?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Where is the source for this ?

His chart shows 2004 data. This chart is originally from this World Bank link:

South Asia - Growth and Poverty html

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXT...K:146736~piPK:146830~theSitePK:223547,00.html
Here is the more recent data:

Indian poverty levels higher than Pakistan's, says UN report - Telegraph

 

[Janmejay]

Where is the source for this ?

first thank my post....

His chart shows 2004 data. This chart is originally from this World Bank link:

South Asia - Growth and Poverty html

Here is the more recent data:

Indian poverty levels higher than Pakistan's, says UN report - Telegraph

do you know there has been no census in pakistan since more than 10 years?

@Armstrong ,see post 64

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

do you know there has been no census in pakistan since more than 10 years?

Usually, a population census is only taken at very long intervals.

 

[Janmejay]

Usually, a population census is only taken at very long intervals.

yeah,at a gap of 10 years and no census has been done in pakistan since 1998!!!

 

[Armstrong]

His chart shows 2004 data. This chart is originally from this World Bank link:

South Asia - Growth and Poverty html

Here is the more recent data:

Indian poverty levels higher than Pakistan's, says UN report - Telegraph

Well I was curious because because the United Nations Development Program Report of 2013 in its Table 5 Multidimensional Poverty Index gives the following data on pages 160 & 161 :

Multidimensional Poverty Index - India (0.283), Pakistan (0.264)

Population in Multidimensional Poverty - India (53.7% / 612.203 million), Pakistan (49.4% / 81.236 million)

Intensity of Deprivation - India (52.7%) , Pakistan (53.4%)

Population Vulnerable to Poverty - India (16.4%), Pakistan (11.0%)

Population in Severe Poverty - India (28.6%), Pakistan (27.4%)

Population below Income Poverty Line :

PPP $1.25 a day - India (32.7%) , Pakistan (21.0%)

National Poverty Line - India (29.8%), Pakistan (22.3%)

 

[AhsanAmin]

I do not think there is much point in showing which nation has a smaller or greater poverty level. Best way is to ask how we can help each other reduce poverty level in our nations. I think in many way destinies of people of Pakistan and India are linked together. I do not think it would be the best thing to tell each other here,"We are better than you and you are worse off." Best question for genuine people is to ask each other,"How can we help each other reduce poverty in our countries."

Here I have discussed it in my blog ahsanamin2999.wordpress.com. I quote it here

The success and greatness of a nation is not measured by the strength of its army, its atomic arsenal or weaponry. It is measured by the prosperity of its people, the rule of law, tolerance and civility among the individuals of the society and the scholarship and strong work ethics of the people of the nation. These are characteristics of a good society in which every nation should take pride in. Immature nations and people take pride in weaponry and atomic arsenal of their nations, hatred for other nations/people/religions and righteously believe that hurting or damaging other nations somehow contributes to greatness of their own nations. Nations have to achieve greatness by working hard, imparting right skills and education to its individuals, choosing the right trades and industries in which to excel, giving a good legal code to its society, and providing social justice to individuals of its society. When some nation thinks that their success lies in damaging interests of other nations, it means that something has seriously gone wrong with the collective decision making and vision of that nation.

We, as Pakistanis, have to ask ourselves whether we can take pride in the above qualities of a great nation. We are one of the poorest country in the world. We do not spend much on education as compared to other nations of the world despite having very low literacy rates, and advanced sciences and technology are rarely known to the individuals of our society. However, we do take great pride in supporting one of the largest army in the world and a huge percentage of our GDP goes to serving the interests of this army. We are a nation with very limited resources and we have to make wise and thoughtful decisions about how to allocate our meager resources to different categories of state expenditure. When we do not spend much on education and continue to spend huge amount of money on our army it means that something has seriously gone wrong with the decision making process in our society. We have to see the writing on the wall that no state can continue to spend huge sums on defence without expanding the economy which in turn is not possible without giving right skills and education to its people, an area where we are seriously faltering as a nation. Since we have made the same choice for decades, our state is close to bankruptcy and our finances have to be propped by loans from foreign nations and banks who fear that a complete breakdown of our state will create anarchy and promote terrorism.

It is up to the people of the nation, its universities and the intelligentsia to sense what has gone wrong with their nation and propose a recipe to cure the problem. I have tried to give qualities of nations that tread the path of success and excellence. We have to take the right and dramatic decisions now to take our nation away from the road to failure and destruction towards the path of success.

One thing we have to understand that prosperity for our nation will result only when we have total peace with our neighbors and we are sincere in creating an atmosphere of peace in the region. India is a much larger country with a huge economy that is growing at a faster pace than our country’s economy. It will be impossible for Pakistan to stand against India for long without growing our economy which does not seem possible given the current state of affairs. It will be really wiser to seek total, true and real peace with India and divert our resources towards good education of our children, fostering an atmosphere where investment in right industries is hugely encouraged, imparting social justice to people in the society, and creating a true sense of security among the individuals when it comes to their life and property by curbing all crime.

Let me ask people of my nation this question. Do our ethics as a nation or our religion allow the kind of massacre that Pakistani religious fanatics did in Bombay in 2008. As far as I know my religion, killing innocent people of any other nation or religion is a great crime and when it is done in the name of my religion, it shows the extreme immaturity and childishness of the people doing that in the name of religion. I have studied the life of our prophet and I know how he showed extreme kindness towards other people all his life. I, as a common Pakistani, cannot be sure but a lot of evidence points that ISI encouraged training these people and the people responsible for these crimes walk free in Pakistan. We have to assume our responsibilities as a civilized nation. I strongly suggest that we really have as fair trial into this issue as possible and if any individual is found responsible for this, they must be punished according to laws of our country. And if any official institution is found responsible for this, let us try to rectify ethics of that institution. I, as a proud follower of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), cannot see my country as a sanctuary for people who commit murder of innocent people of other nations or religions and walk free in my country with impunity.

One of the purposes behind mentioning the Bobmay massacre was that some institutions in our country have vested interest in never having peace with India. We have to look towards prosperity of our nation as a whole and if some vested interests come in the way, let us defeat those vested interests and take the right decisions with a collective wisdom that ensures that our nation is on the right track towards progress and prosperity.

So let us allocate the right amount of our GDP on educating the poor children of our nation, invest heavily on higher education and the research in the universities, promote the right industries by giving them generous incentives and maintain an atmosphere of law, security and order when it comes to life and property of the individuals but this could only be possible if we can divert resources from supporting one of the largest armies in the world and try to find peace with India.

I have written about ills of our society but I think some of the similar problems exist in Indian society as well. Just like the religious fanatics in my country, there are Hindu fundamentalists in India who are against the idea of any kind of peace with Pakistan. The only fear that stops me from suggesting a steep reduction in the Pakistan army is that some Indian government may yield to the idea of gaining cheap popularity among a lot of Indian hardliners by choosing the path of military adventurism. How remote that scenario is, I cannot say. But if the people of two countries try to take truly sincere and concrete steps to promote peace, I am confident that we can help alleviate poverty among one of the most heavily populated countries in the world. The future of the two countries when measured in terms of the prosperity of their people will be far more secure, if we learn to live with total peace as good neighbors.

 

[Janmejay]

Well I was curious because because the United Nations Development Program Report of 2013 in its Table 5 Multidimensional Poverty Index gives the following data on pages 160 & 161 :

Multidimensional Poverty Index - India (0.283), Pakistan (0.264)

Population in Multidimensional Poverty - India (53.7% / 612.203 million), Pakistan (49.4% / 81.236 million)

Intensity of Deprivation - India (52.7%) , Pakistan (53.4%)

Population Vulnerable to Poverty - India (16.4%), Pakistan (11.0%)

Population in Severe Poverty - India (28.6%), Pakistan (27.4%)
Population below Income Poverty Line :

PPP $1.25 a day - India (32.7%) , Pakistan (21.0%)

National Poverty Line - India (29.8%), Pakistan (22.3%)

Then why pakistan ranks lower than India in HDI......?
point is that there has been no census in pakistan since 1998,where there will be census in pakistan then only we will know the reality.....

 

[Armstrong]

Then why pakistan ranks lower than India in HDI......?
point is that there has been no census in pakistan since 1998,where there will be census in pakistan then only we will know the reality.....

Because an HDI is 'a composite index measuring average achievement in three basic dimensions of human development—a long and healthy life, knowledge and a decent standard of living. See Technical note 1 at http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2013_En_technotes.pdf for detailson how the HDI is calculated.' (Page 151 of the UNDP Human Development Report 2013)

Naturally we rank lower than India on the first two !

And Census aren't everything nor are they utilized by such various organizations to give their findings because one doesn't take 'a country's own survey, conducted by themselves to show how well or worse they performed' because otherwise 'objectivity' would go out the window !

The findings of National Censuses are used in Comparison to show - This is what was claimed & this is what our Findings have shown !

From the same Report heres an Extract of the Main Sources used by them for the Multidimensional Poverty Index :

Columns 1 and 2: Calculated from various household surveys, including ICF Macro Demographic and Health Surveys, united nations Children’s Fund Multiple Indicator Cluster Surveys and World Health organization World Health Surveys conducted between 2000 and 2010.

Columns 3–10: Calculated based on data on household deprivations in education, health and
living standards from various household surveys as listed in column 1.

Columns 11 and 12: World Bank (2012a).

(Page 161 of the UNDP Human Development Report 2013)

 

[INDIC]

His chart shows 2004 data. This chart is originally from this World Bank link:

South Asia - Growth and Poverty html

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXT...K:146736~piPK:146830~theSitePK:223547,00.html
Here is the more recent data:

Indian poverty levels higher than Pakistan's, says UN report - Telegraph

That's not latest. this one is latest came july 2013.

Poverty declines to 21.9% in 2011-12: Planning Commission - The Times of India

 

[Mav3rick]

That's precisely my point.

Did Musharraf do enough to weaken the old guard and give the country a fighting chance to liberate itself. Did he create national institutions empowered to keep government accountable?

Or was he just the latest general -- in a long line -- bought off by the feudal elite to keep their choke-hold on Pakistan?

Other than the media, did Musharraf leave any lasting legacy? Anything that the old buzzards didn't immediately undo as soon as they got back in power?

People stuffing their bank accounts while avoiding taxes as the country goes to pot, lacking in crucial social services, hardly counts as a lasting achievement.

I remember that Musharraf used to speak of a 20 year plan for reforms in Pakistan. Perhaps the things that we speak of were on his agenda, especially land reforms.