Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deal

[Tipu7]

Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deals
By Dominic Perry
26 February 2020

Pakistan looks set to turn to China for its attack helicopter replacement needs after US embargoes halted sales of rival Bell and Turkish Aerospace products.

Islamabad had in 2015 ordered 12 Bell AH-1Zs under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process and then followed that in 2018 with a deal for 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion.

Source: Shimin Gu/Wikimedia Commons

But the AH-1Z sale has been on hold since US President Donald Trump cut security funding to Pakistan, and export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the T129 has led to the suspension of that contract.

This impasse, and a pressing need to retire its fleet of 48 Bell AH-1Fs, is now pushing Islamabad to consider alternatives, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, commander, army aviation, told Defence IQ’s International Military Helicopter conference in London on 26 February.

“We are looking at other options. One of them is in China in the shape of the new attack helicopter they have created called the Z-10ME,” he says. “In case the first two options do not materialise this third option will be considered.”

Pakistan had previously evaluated an earlier version of the CAIC Z-10, but Ahmed says the latest iteration has improved weapons and systems.

Source: Turkish Aerospace

Ahmed is extremely doubtful that the AH-1Z deal can be resurrected, and although Turkish Aerospace is developing an indigenous replacement engine for the T129, he is not confident that this will be ready in time.

In fact, Pakistan has set a deadline of July this year for a final decision, Ahmed says.

The relative urgency is driven by India’s capability increases, as New Delhi grows its fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apaches.

“The Cobras are no match for the Apaches that the Indians are getting,” he says. “We definitely want to match that [capability].”

https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article

It's extremely unfortunate. But there is still slight hope left.
Z10ME may have emerged as an improved version, but T129 is still a better helicopter.

 

[mudas777]

As we learned from F16 saga we must learn from this harsh reality too and with partnership with China and Turkish assistance find our own solution on war footing. There is no substitute for making your own before it gets more late.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

It's extremely unfortunate. But there is still slight hope left.
Z10ME may have emerged as an improved version, but T129 is still a better helicopter.

Maybe z 10 is being considered in place of AH 1Zs.

 

[Pandora]

Maybe z 10 is being considered in place of AH 1Zs.

AHIZ was a luxury procurement due to our obsession with American Goodies. T129 was chosen mainly bcz of its American Engine. We could have opted for russian stuff but their logistic supply chain is really below par. So only option left for us is Z10 so beggars can't be choosers here.

 

[cloud4000]

Don't know about T-129 given that's more a issue between Turkey and US than Pakistan and Turkey. Don't know when that will be sorted out. As for the AH-1z, I believe there's light at the end of tunnel. I believe deliveries will began soon after the peace deal in Afghanistan is signed.

The question remains if Pakistan wants more them. I've read on PDF that Z-10 hasn't gotten a better, more powerful engine. Perhaps there will be renewed interest in it.

China never fears Indian military, because China always knows Indian military may look classy but one month into war they will plunge into logistic and coordination chaos, they can never manage to integrate weapons of various origins to form decent combat capability, Chinese military, on the contrary, is highly integrated.

This is your opinion, of course. The only true test of a military's capabilities is war. Both China and India are green and inexperienced.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It's extremely unfortunate. But there is still slight hope left.
Z10ME may have emerged as an improved version, but T129 is still a better helicopter.

I was told by a source that the PAA started considering the Z-10ME in lieu of the AH-1Z in the anti-armour role. The T129's main draw was high-alt ops, and will remain so even if the PAA acquires the Z-10ME.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

I was told by a source that the PAA started considering the Z-10ME in lieu of the AH-1Z in the anti-armour role. The T129's main draw was high-alt ops, and will remain so even if the PAA is to acquire the Z-10ME.

Whats your analysis say about Z 10ME vs AH 1Z for Anti-Armour Role?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Whats your analysis say about Z 10ME vs AH 1Z for Anti-Armour Role?

The AH-1Z offers superior payload and a proven self-defence/survival suite. It's the industry standard alongside the AH-64E Apache Guardian. However, the Z-10ME should get the job done fine, and since its costs is lower, the Army can field a larger number of them to cover more ground. It's also available today.

 

[airmarshal]

Time for Pakistani Authorities to wake up from their deep sleep

Year 2005-2006: we will get Super Cobra from USA
Year 2006-2007: We will get F16 C/D and Super Cobra we are so lucky
Year 2008: Why bother with Z-10 ? We have our 1970 Cobra , We getting Super Cobra
Year 2009: We have been promised access to Super Cobra we don't need to buy Helicopters
Year 2010: Get South African Helicopter with the partnership ? No we are getting Super Cobras
Year 2012: Why bother, in 2014 Super cobras will be retired and we will get them for discount
Year 2014: Well we will start discussion on attaining the Super cobras
Year 2015-2017: No let's not get Z-10 we are getting Super Cobra
Year 2018: What if we return the 4 gifted Z-10 maybe it will expedite the Super Cobra
Year 2019: Well they were supposed to deliver the Super Cobras but delay exist
Year 2020: GOT NOTHING no Super Cobras still it has been 15 years of wait

Comment on PDF , Oh yar dekh zara , Ye Z-10 ka Pilot helmet kitna zaberdust hai

• Pick up 40 Z-10 Units immediately and order a 2nd batch of 40 Z-10

• Pick up the retired 1990 manufactured 4x Chinese Destroyer they are parked in China, put Herba missiles on

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/4-ch...-purchase-decommissioned-2-months-ago.633768/

• Don't wait for the Golden Sword and Sheild with glittering dimonds
• Provided availibity exist pick up the Iron Sword and Iron Sheild

As if our coffers are overflowing!! Please dont lose perspective. Right now, if we have money, USA will never turn us down whatever we want to buy. AH-1Z was FMs program thats why USA could stall the deal.

 

[bananarepublic]

But the south African option. Rooivalk satisfies every need of PAA along with much more..
Plus south Africa is looking for a partner for their rooivalk 2 program

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But the south African option. Rooivalk satisfies every need of PAA along with much more..
Plus south Africa is looking for a partner for their rooivalk 2 program

Unfortunately, Pak Army generally isn't interested in South Africa, and Denel seems to be undergoing its own issues that might stop it from pursuing the Rooivalk 2 any further. Basically, if there's scope for a JV on a heavy attack helicopter, then it's either Turkey (ATAK-2) or China (rumoured next-gen heavy attack helicopter).

 

[Desert Fox]

I know you have a hate for Chinese.. Your opinion is insignificant here.

You just started off on a wrong premise.

Me being pro-Pakistan doesn't make me anti- Chinese and for you to assume that says more about you.

China has a much larger trade with India, yet how many Pakistanis accuse you of being anti-Pakistan?

Which supplier of a single country can supply full support that include ample power engine? There is only a few handful of such players. Chinese has prove to be very reliable when comes to supplying arms to Pakistan unlike US and Russia with politics involved whenever comes to arm deal with Pakistan. There is nothing wrong depend solely on China if our products meet Seller requirement.

JF-17 recently just demo firing C-802 anti-ship missile which something even PAF F-16 cant do it.

Yes, I'm aware of the JF17 and appreciate Chinas assistance.

However, we Pakistanis should diversify our military assets. If Chinese offer tot for this helicopter I'm all for it.

 

[Hassan Guy]

The hell we waiting for, the moment the AH-1z and T-129 got halted, they should had rolled with the Z-10 right away.

 

[Tipu7]

I was told by a source that the PAA started considering the Z-10ME in lieu of the AH-1Z in the anti-armour role. The T129's main draw was high-alt ops, and will remain so even if the PAA acquires the Z-10ME.

In terms of machine vs machine comparison, AH1Z is miles ahead of Z10 in every aspect, better payload, better cruise, better survivability, better situation awareness, better maintenance, a more modular design and higher availability rate than which increases its 'fear factor' in comparison with that of Z10.
Only aspects which benefit Z10 are that it's cheaper, can be fielded in large numbers and carry no risks associated with supply chain blockade.
AH1Z were (are) suppose to deploy in Multan, a critically vulnerable spot where the threat of Indian armor offense is maximum.
It can sustain adverse weather conditions and will remain available at its optimum capacity for longer duration of time in the conflict. This is something Z10 cannot do (or was not able to do). Last time it's electronics burnt up in extreme heat and engine showed indications of power loss in certain conditions while carrying 'maximum payload'.

Now how Z10ME will rectify such issues is not in my knowledge. Yes, quantity can generate its own quality as may be 36 Z10ME can be deployed instead of 12 AH1Z. But again, the adversary will be fielding AH-64E equipped with longbow/hell fire combination which will give it such qualitative advantage which cannot be overcome by fielding more Z10 helicopters. We need a 'quality' solution also. One which could put mmW FCR and 16 ATGM capacity on table.

How betters? 3.6 tons helo vs 6 tons helo? I dont think u can expect miracle happen on T-129 with better armour than Z-10 despite being almost 2.5 tons lighter.

T-129k can be easily shot down even by small arms.

Pal I don't deal with such paper comparison. Pakistan has evaluated both T129 & Z10 to their maximum capacity. Their results show which one is better.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Better than nothing. 3 years have been passed yet nothing. Just get Z10s for now and wait for t129/AH1Zs purchase later upon availability. Buying Z10s or viceversa doesn't mean that we won't be buying another platform in future.

President Xi is scheduled to visit Pakistan in June. High time we clinch the deal during his visit.