Pakistan Can No Longer Ignore Its Weakened Economy

[Khafee]

Hmm..this is an interesting perspective which i never thought about it...Whatever may the cause, somehow, i am happy to see Pakistan of 2017 in more postive way than it was earlier..I hope some day, i could see a India - Pakistan cricket series in Pakistan itself...

That would be something, the whole sub continent would grind to a halt!!!

Sane people like @Joe Shearer understand this, that a stable nuclear neighbor, is a good neighbor.

Grass root level contacts, and balanced trade, takes away the hatred, and brings in peace and understanding. This helps minorities on either side of the border as well.

Politicians, use hatred as a tool, to breed fear, in return for peoples cash, civil liberties, and votes. People form both sides of the border, need to wake up, and kick the crap out of their politicians, and hate mongers, who mint money, at the cost of the common mans misery.

Best Regards

 

[Kaniska]

That would be something, the whole sub continent would grind to a halt!!!

Sane people like @Joe Shearer understand this, that a stable nuclear neighbor, is a good neighbor.

Grass root level contacts, and balanced trade, takes away the hatred, and brings in peace and understanding. This helps minorities on either side of the border as well.

Politicians, use hatred as a tool, to breed fear, in return for peoples cash, civil liberties, and votes. People form both sides of the border, need to wake up, and kick the crap out of their politicians, and hate mongers, who mint money, at the cost of the common mans misery.

Best Regards

Agree with you...

 

[Joe Shearer]

That would be something, the whole sub continent would grind to a halt!!!

Sane people like @Joe Shearer understand this, that a stable nuclear neighbor, is a good neighbor.

Grass root level contacts, and balanced trade, takes away the hatred, and brings in peace and understanding. This helps minorities on either side of the border as well.

Politicians, use hatred as a tool, to breed fear, in return for peoples cash, civil liberties, and votes. People form both sides of the border, need to wake up, and kick the crap out of their politicians, and hate mongers, who mint money, at the cost of the common mans misery.

Best Regards

The ancient Greeks used to declare a truce, for forty or fifty years at a time. Strange to think that they had the sense to do this, while we kill each other monotonously, even after every reason to do it has disappeared.

If we kill all our politicians, and tell the next crop to believe it when we say what we say, that they will follow unless they improve, most of our present problems would vanish.

 

[Khafee]

The ancient Greeks used to declare a truce, for forty or fifty years at a time. Strange to think that they had the sense to do this, while we kill each other monotonously, even after every reason to do it has disappeared.

If we kill all our politicians, and tell the next crop to believe it when we say what we say, that they will follow unless they improve, most of our present problems would vanish.

I still remember @MastanKhan saying the same, his words were something like this: "put the corrupt, in front of an anti aircraft gun, and shoot them, like they shoot the corrupt in North Korea"

 

[Chak Bamu]

I can see Pakistan's foreign loans being renegotiated if there are balance of payment issues. Lenders, in the end, want their money back and will arrangements to do so, including taking haircuts.

I do not think that it would come to renegotiation with lenders just yet. There is a good bit of leeway as of now. Remember Pakistan's Debt to GDP ratio is around 70% - not too serious and in the same league as regional countries.

Until this vicious cycle of PPP then PML is broken, Accountability across the board, Law and Order reforms, nothing will change.

Actually, No. The problem is not following the constitution. The military mind-set sees things very differently, but that is a limitation that has hurt Pakistan a lot over the decades. There are no short-cuts. People must choose their government according to the constitution, & their choice must be respected. This is the only way to grow and develop constitutional institutions. The press, civil society, NGOs, political parties, businesses, Bureaucracy (non-military and military, both) would benefit from this. By interfering, the military creates doubts about the nature and rules of the game. This works against constitutional arrangement and hinders development of institutions, without which there is no sustained growth & development. Look, the constitution sets the rules of the 'game'. When nobody is sure about the rules, then game becomes a cheat-fest farce.

Our problem - biggest problem - is abysmal HDIs. Establishment interference only worsens the problem. Point to note is that Establishment loves status quo, and our status quo is toxic.

Across the board accountability is not a possibility, since Generals & Judges would always be exempted and therefore nobody would believe in any process that claims to be across-the-board. It is a non-starter, unless there is actual and genuine revolution. The strongest player of the Status-quo is our Military and therefore, as an institution, it would never allow anything that comes close to being a fair accountability process. The so-called accountability starts and stops with politicians and low-level bureaucrats.

The most pressing issues in order of priority are:

1. Toxic Civ-mil dynamic.
2. Lack (or delay) of much-needed legislation.
3. Quality of Governance.
4. Corruption.

All of the above are interlinked and all of them contribute to the abysmal HDI and quality of life in Pakistan. If I were to start somewhere, I would start with #1, which happens to be the driver of all others. I could argue and prove why this is so. But for that I might start a new thread when I have time.

In my view, the fortunes of an economy are tied with a robust institutional frame-work (stability), HDI, & ethic of hard work (& savings). Nothing else really matters.

So overall, the article is kind of portraying very -ve aspect of economy which may not be entirely true if you observe Pakistan economy for last 5 years.

True. The article is alarmist. This might have to do with political sympathies of the writer, or his ambition to be part of an extra-constitutional 'Technocrat' set-up.

Politicians, use hatred as a tool, to breed fear, in return for peoples cash, civil liberties, and votes. People form both sides of the border, need to wake up, and kick the crap out of their politicians, and hate mongers, who mint money, at the cost of the common mans misery.

Study Kargil. You would get to know what happens for real. There is an anti-peace coalition to protect status-quo. In our case, the problem does not lie with politicians as much as it does with Establishment.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

The Pakistani economy is in e healthy shape if consumption statistics presented by my dear friend Brof Riazul Haq sb are correct. What is not is its public finances.

If you ask there is nothing for the aam awaam of Pak to be worried about, if anyone has to be worried it has to be Pak's lenders but as cloud4000 says, they will have to lump a haircut.

Regards

 

[VCheng]

All of the above are interlinked and all of them contribute to the abysmal HDI and quality of life in Pakistan. If I were to start somewhere, I would start with #1, which happens to be the driver of all others. I could argue and prove why this is so. But for that I might start a new thread when I have time.

Looking forward to that thread.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

No country can ignore its economic development. In a way economic development, stability and management thereof are a direct indication of the functioning of a state. @TaiShang

A high functioning state would obviously be putting enormus energy and focus on economic development. A case in point for the developing world would be China in particular and SE Asian in general.

Since PDF is primarily a tribal space..the purpose of this thread is apparently for a tribal shadenfreude. Totally understandable. Daily routine really....Red vs Orange vs Green...and there are other wonderlands/colours of mudslinging!

Regarding the economic perforamce of Pak, well, it is truly a wonderful study.

A country that could be a marvel of development in the 50s and 60s takes a diametrically opposite course and in the process wipes out the gains of achievements of that period. And yet keeps doggedly developing in strategic security sphere to be on par with great powers.

This paradox provides a window into the potential of the Pak State and Pak Peoples. If the same people (from same stock) can have a highly functioning armed forces and an almost respectable defence production...why can't they manage their economic and social development equally?

Blaming politicos or deep state won't solve the predicament. We all have been here before...and this circle will keep people and mental output contained within. The need of the hour is exit from such enclosement and finding new frameworks that could work for Pak State and People.

Given the current state of affairs in political corruption and apathy of the political ruling class...it becomes imperative that an independent and solid Pak Economic Policy and Management Framework be established which has both expertise and autonomy to develop, deploy and manage the economic and financial performace of the country.

In such a framework Pak political class can direct their energies to creating social harmony and enabling political environment for investments and economic development.( It can also bring the major corruption to a managable level!)

Same as Pak security establishment is responsible for the national security and territorial integerity...political class can have its own portfolio of responsiblities. With a special bureau responsible for economy and finance...developing both long term (15-25 year goals) and short term (5 years plan) and seeing it through...being held accountable by the elected officials and judicial mechanisms.

By allowing the current state of affairs to continue Pak will be creating more of self inflicted wounds. Perhaps it is time now to stop this hobby and pursue a new interest.... Comprehensive National Strength....through economic, social, technological and scientific development.

So in the end Pak can become a model for the global South which suffers from the same problems of corruption, incompetence and apathy.

The Five Pillars of Wisdom could entail.

1) Political Class - Responsible for social harmony and a condusive environment for investement and economic/social growth i.e. education and rule of law

2) Armed Forces - Responsible for National Security and Perservation of State from external threats

3) Independent and Competent Judiciary - Responsible for impartial justice applied to all equally

4) Independent Economic and Financial Authority - Responsible for the obvious and accountable to Pak Parliment

5) Civil Society - Responsible for holding the elected accountable. Being responsible to live and develop the Idea of Pak in their daily lives...starting to take ownership...it always starts with the middle class.

Given Pak's unique history...Civilisational and recent.... given the geographic position... until the governance reachs maturity... no other form is going to deliver results.

CPEC happened not because of the genius of Pak Political Class but by the sheer strategic necessity of the Great Red Dragon.

Food for thought.

The difference between potential and realistic is the distance by which some nations become great powers and others remain dreaming.

Succes is a Choice!

All the best to tribal warfare here on PDF....though some do offer great insights!


@Khafee @MastanKhan @Kaptaan @El Sidd @Irfan Baloch @The Eagle @war&peace @DESERT FIGHTER @hellfire @Jacob Martin @Joe Shearer @scorpionx @Chak Bamu @Sher Shah Awan @django

 

[Khafee]

No country can ignore its economic development. In a way economic development, stability and management thereof are a direct indication of the functioning of a state. @TaiShang

A high functioning state would obviously be putting enormus energy and focus on economic development. A case in point for the developing world would be China in particular and SE Asian in general.

Since PDF is primarily a tribal space..the purpose of this thread is apparently for a tribal shadenfreude. Totally understandable. Daily routine really....Red vs Orange vs Green...and there are other wonderlands/colours of mudslinging!

Regarding the economic perforamce of Pak, well, it is truly a wonderful study.

A country that could be a marvel of development in the 50s and 60s takes a diametrically opposite course and in the process wipes out the gains of achievements of that period. And yet keeps doggedly developing in strategic security sphere to be on par with great powers.

This paradox provides a window into the potential of the Pak State and Pak Peoples. If the same people (from same stock) can have a highly functioning armed forces and an almost respectable defence production...why can't they manage their economic and social development equally?

Blaming politicos or deep state won't solve the predicament. We all have been here before...and this circle will keep people and mental output contained within. The need of the hour is exit from such enclosement and finding new frameworks that could work for Pak State and People.

Given the current state of affairs in political corruption and apathy of the political ruling class...it becomes imperative that an independent and solid Pak Economic Policy and Management Framework be established which has both expertise and autonomy to develop, deploy and manage the economic and financial performace of the country.

In such a framework Pak political class can direct their energies to creating social harmony and enabling political environment for investments and economic development.( It can also bring the major corruption to a managable level!)

Same as Pak security establishment is responsible for the national security and territorial integerity...political class can have its own portfolio of responsiblities. With a special bureau responsible for economy and finance...developing both long term (15-25 year goals) and short term (5 years plan) and seeing it through...being held accountable by the elected officials and judicial mechanisms.

By allowing the current state of affairs to continue Pak will be creating more of self inflicted wounds. Perhaps it is time now to stop this hobby and pursue a new interest.... Comprehensive National Strength....through economic, social, technological and scientific development.

So in the end Pak can become a model for the global South which suffers from the same problems of corruption, incompetence and apathy.

The Five Pillars of Wisdom could entail.

1) Political Class - Responsible for social harmony and a condusive environment for investement and economic/social growth i.e. education and rule of law

2) Armed Forces - Responsible for National Security and Perservation of State from external threats

3) Independent and Competent Judiciary - Responsible for impartial justice applied to all equally

4) Independent Economic and Financial Authority - Responsible for the obvious and accountable to Pak Parliment

5) Civil Society - Responsible for holding the elected accountable. Being responsible to live and develop the Idea of Pak in their daily lives...starting to take ownership...it always starts with the middle class.

Given Pak's unique history...Civilisational and recent.... given the geographic position... until the governance reachs maturity... no other form is going to deliver results.

CPEC happened not because of the genius of Pak Political Class but by the sheer strategic necessity of the Great Red Dragon.

Food for thought.

The difference between potential and realistic is the distance by which some nations become great powers and others remain dreaming.

Succes is a Choice!

All the best to tribal warfare here on PDF....though some do offer great insights!


@Khafee @MastanKhan @Kaptaan @El Sidd @Irfan Baloch @The Eagle @war&peace @DESERT FIGHTER @hellfire @Jacob Martin @Joe Shearer @scorpionx @Chak Bamu @Sher Shah Awan @django

@WebMaster Sir, this is TT material, kindly consider.

 

[war&peace]

2) Armed Forces - Responsible for National Security and Perservation of State from external threats

No just external threats but also internal threats as well rather the latter is playing more significant role in modern day 4th gen. warfare. We need to find out the double-faced hypocrites who talk against the country and its military behind the closed doors while pretending to be loyal to the country in public.

 

[313ghazi]

There is no doubt the economy is too small, under utlised and inefficient. Are we going to go bankrupt - i here this every 6 months for the last 20 years.

 

[war&peace]

More alarming issue is that the current govt is still on the way of unbridled corruption despite the process of cleansing began months ago by the judiciary, its pace is slow while the corrupt mafia has started to secure the bounty it plundered over the years especially in the last decade or so. The current PM is involved in the LNG rip-off deal while the corrupt finance minister is lying and lying in the hospital bed and declining to resign and there seems to be no let up. The situation is truly grim and divine intervention is needed.

However, I feel that Pakistan is like that patient of cancer who is languishing due to the chemotherapy only to recover and become healthy and cancer-free. But it is a painful process and the nation has to suffer for its cumulative sins of ignoring the corruption and letting the corrupt mafia take a ride.

 

[RoadRunner401]

Until this vicious cycle of PPP then PML is broken, Accountability across the board, Law and Order reforms, nothing will change.

Law and order situation suits the current politicians just fine as it keeps the public eyes of them, so don't look towards a fix any time soon

All you are looking for will only happen after democracy is allowed to mature, governments in power allowed to complete their terms, generals sent back to barracks, until that happens this will continue!!!

 

[Chak Bamu]

We have long been victims of indoctrination. I cringe when I see young ones talking like my twenty year old self.

Go ahead and vent your spleen upon corrupt politicians. This will never get you anywhere, & after a few years you may realize that you are just an unwitting tool supporting status-quo imposed by Establishment.

When we lust after good schools & hospitals the same way people here lust after weapons, things might start to change.

Politicians are not responsible for status quo. They are struggling against it.

 

[Khafee]

Politicians are not responsible for status quo. They are struggling against it.

Are you being sarcastic? I think not.