Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[GriffinsRule]

This is how it might play out. India will take deliveries of S400. US wont apply sanctions but will instead have to lift sanctions on Turkey. Engine will then be cleared for export. At least that is my guess.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Have the T-129s all been built for the PA and they are just missing the engines, or have they been partly manufactured? ie if the USA do approve, do they all appear in 6months after engine delivery as they are already made? ( i dont think USA will approve, but trying to see where the programme is..).

 

[T-SaGe]

This is how it might play out. India will take deliveries of S400. US wont apply sanctions but will instead have to lift sanctions on Turkey. Engine will then be cleared for export. At least that is my guess.

However, it should not be forgotten that India is also one of the most important customers of the USA FMS. While the Indian defense industry is turning to US and US-linked European resources on matters it lacks, Pakistan is demanding Chinese support in the same situations. The USA even re-update aviation projects that are 50 years old and sell them to India. Of course, this political difference of Pakistan is not without reason, and the unfair attitude of the US policies towards Pakistan's national interests are main actor. Therefore, even Pakistan's Atak helicopter project is being discussed over the geopolitical conditions of Pakistan (or its supplier) instead of technical competence.

Have the T-129s all been built for the PA and they are just missing the engines, or have they been partly manufactured? ie if the USA do approve, do they all appear in 6months after engine delivery as they are already made? ( i dont think USA will approve, but trying to see where the programme is..).

There is no other problem. If export permits were provided by the USA to Pakistan for the engine and transmission, now T-129s would have been flying with Pakistan army tail numbers.

I didn't even include exports, but you're 100% correct.

The T625 is available for both military and civilian applications. So, when all Hueys start aging across Africa and Central Asia, we can definitely step in with a new alternative, but without US/EU strings. Since this is one of Turkey's main programs, they'll also market it aggressively.

In some cases, we can barter, e.g., we give Nigeria helicopters in-exchange for direct access to their oil (and we benefit by solving our energy import bill and save money elsewhere).

TAI T-625(Gökbey) is prioritizied as civilian use. For this reason, the project goes along with the EASA certification process so the project schedule has longer phases than projects that continues entirely within the military scope. Indeed, the TSK can order some T-625 to cover the development costs of this project, Of course It will be preferred in other public institutions and ministeries also. But it is necessary to focus on the other helicopter that is planned as 10-12 tons mtow for the main naval and military-utulity platform.

The critical importance of the T-625 in terms of its military-scale repercussions will be the completely indigenous engine set and transmission it carries. Starting from the TEI-TS-1400, Turkey will no longer imports or licensed production of turboshaft engines.

 

[araz]

don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?

There is no money. This is Turkish sovereign funds loaned to Pak for the project. PAA does not have 1.5 billion lying around. If the Chinese product is still not upto PAA requirements then PAA only has 2 choices. Either wait for the Chinese to come up with a better product at a manageable price or wait for the Turks.
A

 

[mingle]

don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?

It's turkish line of credit not Pakistani money

 

[Polestar 2]

It's turkish line of credit not Pakistani money

A very very big reason why PA chooses T-129K over Z-10. Also why PA willing to drag this long even they know such big issue prop up over the engine available.

Free money vs paid upfront cash.. You dont need a genius to tell u to pick which one.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

A suitable engine for T129 should be ready before 2030.

 

[araz]

A very very big reason why PA chooses T-129K over Z-10. Also why PA willing to drag this long even they know such big issue prop up over the engine available.

Free money vs paid upfront cash.. You dont need a genius to tell u to pick which one.

I don't like it when people try to deceive others. Your assumptions are incorrect and the Chinese know it. There was a free and fair trial and the T129 won fair and square. The Chinese brothers lent us 3 platforms for one year and PAA tried it extensively and then suggested changes. The off shoot of those changes is the Z1OME which had more than 30 modifications as suggested by PAA.
As far as credit goes the Chinese brothers have had no problems extending credit to PA. VT4 has just been inducted and we are buying drones from the Chinese. However the Z10ME conundrum escapes logic as none of us really know what the situation inside is.
One thing we have all surmised is the possiblity of local manufacturing of T129 along with the Turks while Z10ME will be an off the shelf buy. What happens now remains to be seen but to say that credit alone is why PAA wanted T129 and keeps waiting for it is illogical and frankly silly.
A

 

[HAIDER]

I don't like it when people try to deceive others. Your assumptions are incorrect and the Chinese know it. There was a free and fair trial and the T129 won fair and square. The Chinese brothers lent us 3 platforms for one year and PAA tried it extensively and then suggested changes. The off shoot of those changes is the Z1OME which had more than 30 modifications as suggested by PAA.
As far as credit goes the Chinese brothers have had no problems extending credit to PA. VT4 has just been inducted and we are buying drones from the Chinese. However the Z10ME conundrum escapes logic as none of us really know what the situation inside is.
One thing we have all surmised is the possiblity of local manufacturing of T129 along with the Turks while Z10ME will be an off the shelf buy. What happens now remains to be seen but to say that credit alone is why PAA wanted T129 and keeps waiting for it is illogical and frankly silly.
A

absolutely , once had conversation about PAF plane modifications. An ex pilot told me, when Pak adopted Chinese Mig 17, we made approximately 106 modification .

 

[Polestar 2]

I don't like it when people try to deceive others. Your assumptions are incorrect and the Chinese know it. There was a free and fair trial and the T129 won fair and square. The Chinese brothers lent us 3 platforms for one year and PAA tried it extensively and then suggested changes. The off shoot of those changes is the Z1OME which had more than 30 modifications as suggested by PAA.
As far as credit goes the Chinese brothers have had no problems extending credit to PA. VT4 has just been inducted and we are buying drones from the Chinese. However the Z10ME conundrum escapes logic as none of us really know what the situation inside is.
One thing we have all surmised is the possiblity of local manufacturing of T129 along with the Turks while Z10ME will be an off the shelf buy. What happens now remains to be seen but to say that credit alone is why PAA wanted T129 and keeps waiting for it is illogical and frankly silly.
A

Deceived? Given your logical thinking. After so much saga, PA shall have long purchase Z-10ME long ago even before reaches this stage. And yet, with so much questioning, PA still pursue for T-129K.

There is a limit China can give loan. We have already given loan for 054B frigate, AIP submarine, VT-4 tank and USD 65 billion CPEC. I dont think you expect China to loan for everything for Pakistan. Turkey is smart to target what they want by offering soft loan. While China this time is more willing to accept cash and payment from Pakistan than loan again.

 

[araz]

Deceived? Given your logical thinking. After so much saga, PA shall have long purchase Z-10ME long ago even before reaches this stage. And yet, with so much questioning, PA still pursue for T-129K.

There is a limit China can give loan. We have already given loan for 054B frigate, AIP submarine, VT-4 tank and USD 65 billion CPEC. I dont think you expect China to loan for everything for Pakistan. Turkey is smart to target what they want by offering soft loan. While China this time is more willing to accept cash and payment from Pakistan than loan again.

Again I am not denying the figures but the deception is in downgrading a product just to say they have only won because they have offered a loan. You have excluded the first step of the outcome of the trials.
As to the Chinese they have loaned Pakistan many a times and adding a billion more would not have caused much trouble to them. The problem lies elsewhere and that is where your deception comes in. Do not show someone else's produce down just because you have yet to produce a comparable one.
One another note if the Z10 was such a complete product why did the ME have to be introduced so quickly. You have then sent it straight for trials to Pakistan. Most military sales are based on credit so what are you expecting?
A

 

[lcloo]

Delete

 

[That Guy]

This is how it might play out. India will take deliveries of S400. US wont apply sanctions but will instead have to lift sanctions on Turkey. Engine will then be cleared for export. At least that is my guess.

Just 1 problem with that: Nations, especially super powers don't care about being hypocritical. Its all about national interests. When the time comes, if it comes at all, the Americans won't hesitate to set a double standard, because its in their interests to do so. Indeed, if any nation was in their shoes, and they'd do so as well.

 

[araz]

Just 1 problem with that: Nations, especially super powers don't care about being hypocritical. Its all about national interests. When the time comes, if it comes at all, the Americans won't hesitate to set a double standard, because its in their interests to do so. Indeed, if any nation was in their shoes, and they'd do so as well.

I think there is a situation which the US might play out. It might say that the S400 deal with Turkey was a problem because Turkey was a pargner in the F35 programme. In India's case they do/not have the same leverage as India is not buying the F35. It therefore will continue to sanction Turkey but might giv3 India some reprieve. In any case the US is likely to draw a blank if it tries sanctioning India as barring a few items India does not have any big ticket US items.
A

 

[Bossman]

absolutely , once had conversation about PAF plane modifications. An ex pilot told me, when Pak adopted Chinese Mig 17, we made approximately 106 modification .

Not the 17 bu the 19 I.e F6. Modifications included American Sidewinders.