Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

With Ukraine's shattered economy, their defense sales are pretty much the only things keeping them afloat. What makes you think they'll willingly give up their knowledge on how to build reliable engines, thus creating competitors to their own companies? They'd be fools to do so.

The only way it'd work is if we buy into their industry and commit to some kind of 'no re-export' clause for anything we make in Pakistan using their IP. I suspect a big reason why Ukraine was hesitant to transfer any key IP to Turkey was the risk of competition. For Pakistan, the issue has more to do with security and guaranteeing our supply line, not commercial gain; so, we may have a chance.

Overall, this is a huge reason why we need to invest in IP creation in Pakistan. We might do a few thing well enough where we can trade secrets with others -- talk as peers, not as punks.

Perhaps take an approach where we co-fund or entirely fund the design and development of an engine in Ukraine, and we then build it turn-key in Pakistan. However, we don't stop them from re-exporting that engine and, likewise, whenever we make sales for say a fighter, helicopter or drone on our end, we source the engine from Ukraine. We emphasize to them that we don't want to be arms dealers, we're just trying to fight for our survival.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

UAVs are not a replacement for helos and nor do we need Turkish drones in any large number. Invest in your own and support the Pakistani companies producing them. Also, their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.

As for the Turkish EW, it's basically first and foremost developed to face the Western systems!! Turkey considers the West as the principal foe, not Russia....

*An example: a couple of months back, a French frigate in a mission to support Greece in the East Med was completely jammed and "phantom" images of imminent threats were generated to make it get away. Their fear and agony were so obvious in the intercepted comms
**Another example: during a recent "dog-fight" type close contact the Turkish F-16s were chasing the Greek F-16s away the French Rafaels were loitering nearby. The interesting part is the Rafaels simply disappeared from the scene leaving their Greek brethren at the mercy of the TurAF

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Do me a favour! Let's enjoy together Turkey's high hopes and ambitions since without high hopes and ambitions you won't reach anything (best example is Germany, which is in fact a true mess!) but I prefer to remain realistic and until these "high hopes and ambitions" can be met, still a lot of time will pass by.

As such I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I'll celebrate with you for your countries then-achievements, but for now, the questions and unsolved issues are greater than what has already been achieved and countries with much larger budget and greater experience failed, so therefore please do not claim this all as already done facts.

I some times just sit quietly reading all the “ambitious” project goals that people celebrate. The issue is that most laymen are fimiliar with the development and release cycle of civil tech gadgets like cellphones, since the development to release cycle is usual in months, they then start inferring aero space timelines from it.
The bitter truth is, as I had seen in aerospace software and systems I worked on, the development cycles are slow and take their time to complete even if you are starting from a certified and matured baseline (i.e not from scratch). Even those timelines we always estimated in years before giving something to the OEM, and the OEM itself (like bombardier, agusta etc) would take their own time via flight tests to fully certify. There was a control surface stabilizers’ control unit SW that I was leading for SW development, and just the SW changes we had to complete before certifying with 10-15 team members was turning into 1-1.5 years - and mind you the SW and Sys dev was ongoing from another certified baseline for a couple of years before I came to the team. The Mechanical team was itself in a mess trying to solve a certain problem identified in the design during flight test (a certain failure mode was dormant but got detected in some conditions) - Long story short with a change in mechanical design would require new control SW development and testing again! And we never use cutting edge technology in these products, we use old time tested and mature methodologies to build these systems and they take their very sweet time to meet safety critical requirements.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

With Ukraine's shattered economy, their defense sales are pretty much the only things keeping them afloat. What makes you think they'll willingly give up their knowledge on how to build reliable engines, thus creating competitors to their own companies? They'd be fools to do so.

Turkey is going for JVs with the Ukranian companies to build engines of all sorts. You're right they don't simply share their core technologies with any outsiders...

Do me a favour! Let's enjoy together Turkey's high hopes and ambitions since without high hopes and ambitions you won't reach anything (best example is Germany, which is in fact a true mess!) but I prefer to remain realistic and until these "high hopes and ambitions" can be met, still a lot of time will pass by.

As such I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I'll celebrate with you for your countries then-achievements, but for now, the questions and unsolved issues are greater than what has already been achieved and countries with much larger budget and greater experience failed, so therefore please do not claim this all as already done facts.

Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein

 

[That Guy]

The only way it'd work is if we buy into their industry and commit to some kind of 'no re-export' clause for anything we make in Pakistan using their IP. I suspect a big reason why Ukraine was hesitant to transfer any key IP to Turkey was the risk of competition. For Pakistan, the issue has more to do with security and guaranteeing our supply line, not commercial gain; so, we may have a chance.

Overall, this is a huge reason why we need to invest in IP creation in Pakistan. We might do a few thing well enough where we can trade secrets with others -- talk as peers, not as punks.

Perhaps take an approach where we co-fund or entirely fund the design and development of an engine in Ukraine, and we then build it turn-key in Pakistan. However, we don't stop them from re-exporting that engine and, likewise, whenever we make sales for say a fighter, helicopter or drone on our end, we source the engine from Ukraine. We emphasize to them that we don't want to be arms dealers, we're just trying to fight for our survival.

That could maybe work, but it would still force Pakistan to continue being reliant on a foreign entity for an extremely vital need for its defense forces, and the Ukrainians could end up milking Pakistan for as much money as possible. Pakistan is at a point in its history that it can no longer afford to continue relying on foreign partners for its supply of defense systems.

Honestly, maybe Pakistan is better off going the China and Iran route of reverse engineering existing systems to help build up its domestic defense industry.

By the way, I realize that I'm just moving the goal post, but I honestly think its never gonna happen.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That could maybe work, but it would still force Pakistan to continue being reliant on a foreign entity for an extremely vital need for its defense forces, and the Ukrainians could end up milking Pakistan for as much money as possible. Pakistan is at a point in its history that it can no longer afford to continue relying on foreign partners for its supply of defense systems.

Honestly, maybe Pakistan is better off going the China and Iran route of reverse engineering existing systems to help build up its domestic defense industry.

By the way, I realize that I'm just moving the goal post, but I honestly think its never gonna happen.

Our deficits are money and lack of IP. I think a genuine reverse engineering effort -- i.e., one aimed at the core of a system -- would help lots in IP generation. We aren't going to get a 100% carbon copy, there will be variances in design stemming from differences in resources, expertise, etc. If we have the IP, then we could actually have serious IP-sharing conversations with others. If they don't want to listen, then we continue to work on what we have and make it ourselves, alone.

 

[That Guy]

Our deficits are money and lack of IP. I think a genuine reverse engineering effort -- i.e., one aimed at the core of a system -- would help lots in IP generation. We aren't going to get a 100% carbon copy, there will be variances in design stemming from differences in resources, expertise, etc. If we have the IP, then we could actually have serious IP-sharing conversations with others. If they don't want to listen, then we continue to work on what we have and make it ourselves, alone.

A good way to create a good chunk of IPs would be to allow local private enterprises to enter the playing field. Much in the similar way that Boeing, Lockheed Martin and other companies in the US compete for government contracts. Its a good way to create competition, expand Pakistanis industrial base, and foster brand new innovations.

 

[Raja Porus]

Mind you it's only $s that's holding the Zulu cobras back

Couldn't get you,sir

 

[GriffinsRule]

Couldn't get you,sir

As in its not any sanctions that are stopping us from buying them. The disagreement is which funds to use hence no delivery. If tomorrow Pakistan feels like it wants to shell out the payment for them, they will come over.

 

[MMM-E]

With a Untrained or semi trained operators In Middle East yes Turkish UCAV definitely wins

Russians trained and used Air Defense Systems in Armenia , Syria and Libya

İndia or Pakistan have zero experience to fight UCAVs .... so Middle East is far better than İndia+Pakistan combined to fight against UCAVs


btw untrained or semi trained Afghans destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters by American STINGER MANPADS in Afghanistan

even PKK terrorists use MANPADS to hit Attack Helicopters

on the other hand , MANPADS can not hit UCAVs which flights at 10.000 m altitude

S-300 doesn't have the capability to intercept UAVs/precision munitions so you claims is just ridiculous

and You said thar our enemies have S400 to destroy UCAVs
S400 also can not match with Turkish BayraktarTB-2 UCAVs

Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
Bayraktar TB-2 UCAV has been designed to emit a low-radar signature .. Turkish UCAV's radar cross section is much smaller than Attack Helicopters

Attack Helicopters have very big RCS to be seen on Radars
even MANPADS can hit Attack Helicopters

Ok, if your UCAVs that super than why your military developing and inducting T-129? If attack helos are obsolete, NO attack helos is not a obsolete concept, all major powers using attack helo and UCAVs as a complimentary to attack helos

Turkey used UCAVs to destroy hundreds of Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , thousands of troops , also dozens of Air Defense Systems in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan

I am saying again , Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
and if we lost UCAV , its only platform but not pilot

Attack Helicopters can not do it ..... not even close
so easy to hit Attack Helicopters

and major powers like Europe , Russia , İndia have no UCAVs to use in a conflict


now Tanks are obsolete concept ... because , success of Turkish Drones in Libya , Syria and Azerbaijan as examples of their vital importance in modern warfare

even UK defense chief Ben Wallace said that Turkish use of drones 'game-changing'


now only 4 Turkish AKINCI UCAVs armed with 24 air to air missiles + AESA Radar can hit 24 Indian AH-64 Attack Helicopters in combat zone

hundreds of Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 , ANKA-S , AKSUNGUR UCAVs can destroy thousands of enemy Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , Troops , also enemy Radars and Air Defense Systems

even I am not talking about jet engine powered stealth UCAV called MIUS which with 1.000 kg payload and AESA Radar


UCAVs are future concept and UCAVs can flight 24 hours to block enemy forces in combat zone

Attack Helicopters can not do it

 

[MMM-E]

please you ultra national Sh!t why you have projects of attack helos if your UCAVs is that super, now go to Turkish section, this thread is not for your baseless blabbering, we are free that what should we buy in the future for countering Indian armored columns

You İgnorant sh1t ... Turkey has also many UCAV projects and Turkey used UCAVs in Syria , Libya , Azerbaijan to win conflicts , not Attack Helicopters

Turkish Army use Attack Helicopters to fight terrorism ...... Attack Helicopter is so pathetic to fight against Russian MANPADS and Air Defense Systems

Turkey would lose conflicts in Syria , Libya , Azerbaijan , if we used Attack Helicopters


Indian Army easly can rape Attack Helicopters including AH-64E , AH-1Z VIPER or KA-52

Pakistan should focus on UCAVs ... not only Attack Helicopters

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Russians trained and used Air Defense Systems in Armenia , Syria and Libya

prove it

İndia or Pakistan have zero experience to fight UCAVs .... so Middle East is far better than İndia+Pakistan combined to fight against UCAVs

Pakistan have more experience to design and develop UAVs and put on the border for spying and for the surveillance purpose, in fact Pakistan was the first Muslim country in the world to design and develop Indigenous UAVs for spying and border petrol and only Muslim country that sells UAVs to USA for border petrol,

I am saying again , Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
and if we lost UCAV , its only platform but not pilot

How can these UAVs have a cloaking device in it?? no jet or aircraft totally invisible to electromagnetic radiation but all stealth jets have reduce radar cross sections as all superpowers (China/Russia/USA/UK/France) are claiming

btw untrained or semi trained Afghans destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters by American STINGER MANPADS in Afghanistan

and old soviet helicopters have a bad IR suppressor system as compare to the west (i m not claiming latest Russian attack Helicopters like MI-28/KA-50,52)

even PKK terrorists use MANPADS to hit Attack Helicopters

and how many PKK terrorists hit attack helicopters please do tell us???

on the other hand , MANPADS can not hit UCAVs which flights at 10.000 m altitude

But the medium range SAMs can able to hit them like our enemy's AKASH SAMs

and You said thar our enemies have S400 to destroy UCAVs
S400 also can not match with Turkish BayraktarTB-2 UCAVs

S-400 has missile to hit any UCAVs at 40 km range

Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs

and tell me how its weapons hang in weapons pylons which increases RCS significantly, is it using a some kind of cloaking device to hide all electromagnetic radiations

Attack Helicopters have very big RCS to be seen on Radars
even MANPADS can hit Attack Helicopters

So did UCAVs because of weapon payloads

Russians trained and used Air Defense Systems in Armenia , Syria and Libya

İndia or Pakistan have zero experience to fight UCAVs .... so Middle East is far better than İndia+Pakistan combined to fight against UCAVs


btw untrained or semi trained Afghans destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters by American STINGER MANPADS in Afghanistan

even PKK terrorists use MANPADS to hit Attack Helicopters

on the other hand , MANPADS can not hit UCAVs which flights at 10.000 m altitude





and You said thar our enemies have S400 to destroy UCAVs
S400 also can not match with Turkish BayraktarTB-2 UCAVs

Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
Bayraktar TB-2 UCAV has been designed to emit a low-radar signature .. Turkish UCAV's radar cross section is much smaller than Attack Helicopters

Attack Helicopters have very big RCS to be seen on Radars
even MANPADS can hit Attack Helicopters







Turkey used UCAVs to destroy hundreds of Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , thousands of troops , also dozens of Air Defense Systems in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan

I am saying again , Air Defense Systems can not track/detect Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs
and if we lost UCAV , its only platform but not pilot

Attack Helicopters can not do it ..... not even close
so easy to hit Attack Helicopters

and major powers like Europe , Russia , İndia have no UCAVs to use in a conflict


now Tanks are obsolete concept ... because , success of Turkish Drones in Libya , Syria and Azerbaijan as examples of their vital importance in modern warfare

even UK defense chief Ben Wallace said that Turkish use of drones 'game-changing'


now only 4 Turkish AKINCI UCAVs armed with 24 air to air missiles + AESA Radar can hit 24 Indian AH-64 Attack Helicopters in combat zone

hundreds of Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 , ANKA-S , AKSUNGUR UCAVs can destroy thousands of enemy Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , MLRSs , Troops , also enemy Radars and Air Defense Systems

even I am not talking about jet engine powered stealth UCAV called MIUS which with 1.000 kg payload and AESA Radar


UCAVs are future concept and UCAVs can flight 24 hours to block enemy forces in combat zone

Attack Helicopters can not do it

and this part is nothing but a baseless blabbering of yours

You İgnorant sh1t ... Turkey has also many UCAV projects and Turkey used UCAVs in Syria , Libya , Azerbaijan to win conflicts , not Attack Helicopters

Turkish Army use Attack Helicopters to fight terrorism ...... Attack Helicopter is s1t to fight against Russian MANPADS and Air Defense Systems

first explain why you have heavy attack helicopters projects in your country if you (Turkey) thinks attack helicopters is the obsolete concepts???

 

[MMM-E]

Pakistan have more experience to design and develop UAVs and put on the border for spying and for the surveillance purpose, in fact Pakistan was the first Muslim country in the world to design and develop Indigenous UAVs for spying and border petrol and only Muslim country that sells UAVs to USA for border petrol,

Well done Pakistan ..... but I am talking about UCAV technology

Turkey is only muslim country that develop real Combat UCAV like AKINCI which will carry AESA Radar , Cruise Missile , long range guided Bombs even 60km air to air missiles

even Europe , Russia , İndia are dreaming about this UCAV technology ..... and only The US , İsrael , Turkey and China in the world

Pakistan should work with Turkey on UCAV and Helicopter technologies

How can these UAVs have a cloaking device in it?? no jet or aircraft totally invisible to electromagnetic radiation but all stealth jets have reduce radar cross sections as all superpowers (China/Russia/USA/UK/France) are claiming

a week ago , Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 entered Greek airspace for 16km .. and TB-2 Drone was near of American military base in Greece .. and Radars could not detect/trace TB-2 Drone

Greeks learned about this from flightradar24.com

and old soviet helicopters have a bad IR suppressor system as compare to the west (i m not claiming latest Russian attack Helicopters like MI-28/KA-50,52)

MI-28 and KA-52 are easy targets for MANPADS ...
Turkish Army has 4800+ STINGER MANPADS ( Missiles ) also Turkey has developed its own SUNGUR MANPADS with range of 8km to destroy all enemy Attack Helicopters

and Turkish HISAR mobile Air Defense Systems can turn MI-28 , KA-52 , AH-64E , Z-10ME Attack Helicopters into crap of metal

and how many PKK terrorists hit attack helicopters please do tell us???

a few Turkish COBRA Attack Helicopters were shot down by PKK terrorists ..( by Russian-made MANPADS )

The US gave hundreds of MANPADS to YPG Terrorists in Syria
if we use Attack Helicopters in the eastern Syria , then we will lose many Attack Helicopters

but Turkish UCAVs can attack on terrorists at 10.000 m altitude and MANPADS can not hit Turkish UCAVs

But the medium range SAMs can able to hit them like our enemy's AKASH SAMs

AKASH SAMs easly can hit MI-28 , KA-52 , AH-64E , T129 , Z-10ME Attack Helicopters

but Turkish AKINCI UCAV can hit AKASH SAMs even from 70km away ... thanks to Turkish KUZGUN guided munition to hit even moving targets ..... and AKINCI UCAV can carry minimum 6 KUZGUN guided munitions to attack on enemy Tanks , Howitzers , MLRSs or Air Defense Systems

• Modular Warhead (Fragmantation, Termobaric, General Purpose, Armour Piercing)
• GPS, INS Guidance
• Low operation cost due to modular warhead option
• Independent Guidance Options (INS , LAB, A-INS , IR seeker ,Data Link, mmW Radar)
• Weight : 100 kg
• Warhead : 25-60 kg
• Range : 74-110 km

also AKINCI UCAVs will carry 120km MRASHM or 280km SOM cruise Missiles ..... good luck to enemy air defense systems ....they will need it

first explain why you have heavy attack helicopters projects in your country if you (Turkey) thinks attack helicopters is the obsolete concepts???

To sell it foreign countries to match with American AH-64E and Russian KA-52
T-129 is not heavy Attack Helicopter ... and many Countries have selected AH-64 instead of T-129 to fight against Tanks

but T-129 is good to fight terrorism ... ( T129 is small , agile , and T-129 was optimized for hot and high conditions ) T-129 is the best option to fight terrorism in mountain areas


and Turkey will use UCAVs + Attack Helicopters ...... for example hundreds of UCAVs + 100-120 T-129 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopters

S-400 has missile to hit any UCAVs at 40 km range

40 km ? what a funny

1) Turkey and İndia dont buy S400s with 40km missiles .... Turkey and İndia buys S400 with 250-380km missiles to intercept Fighter Jets , AWACS , Bombers , etc

2) 40km missiles can not stop Turkish AKINCI UCAVs

AKINCI UCAVs will carry AESA Radar , 74-110km KUZGUN guided munitions , 120km MRASHM or 280km SOM cruise Missiles to hit Air Defense Systems like AKASH , PANTSIR , BUK , TOR , PATRIOT , S300 , S400

 

[The Eagle]

We can't afford to wait for ATAK 2. We need a attack helicopter soon.

That was my choice and what if ...... otherwise, ATAK T-129 is still committed for PA. Delays occurs but sometimes you wait for it given the capability of platform and the benefits comes with it. It will be too soon to talk about it but I can assure you that everyone will be appreciating for such a decision.

Secondly, the delay due to US sanctions against engine; isn't a mountain coming down on us. You can call it the day when brothers make a stand for each other and Pakistan understands Turkey's position and so Turkish brothers are walking extra miles for us too. A brotherly give & take which cannot be explained simply but everyone will be enjoying the fruits in coming years. Wait for it my dear.... wait for it as the patience is the key here.

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi at the end can anybody post something about ATAK129 instead of discussing ucav though there should be a dedicated thread for discussing UCAV
thank you