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Pakistan: A slice of China in Islamabad

Need your opinion guys.

Delicious and cheap seekh kabob from poor Pakhtun brother.

Or.

Nasty and overpriced dumpling from a billion dollar Chinese business man.

Which one would you buy?
 
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Pakistan was warned about this but they rather dig their heads in sand..
The only people who profit from these grand schemes are elites in Punjab and military heads.

I'm really skeptical of these chinamen.. who on Earth would wanna buy overpriced nasty chinese food. when we can buy cheap kabobs from our local brothers.... I would rather help my Pakhtun brothers support their family... than some foreign business mangnate with net worths of billions from Hong Kong.

Its a serious concern, my worst fear is that Chinese will take advantage of Northern Areas and Baluch areas and literally enslave the poor indigenous people and drive them out. Lot of people are going to fall into debt and loose their livelihoods.

If they treat Uighurs so poorly, what makes us so special?
 
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Its a serious concern, my worst fear is that Chinese will take advantage of Northern Areas and Baluch areas and literally enslave the poor indigenous people and drive them out. Lot of people are going to fall into debt and loose their livelihoods.

What's even more dangerous are the **** CPEC fanboys.. They will jump on and insult anyone who speaks against CPEC.. I have been against CPEC for more than a 1 year. My main concern is the highways they are building in Pakistan and the thousands of trucks that will go through them. It will cause so much pollution and ruin the national beauty of the Northern Areas. :disagree:
 
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:coffee:

Dickinson Journal of International Law

Volume 9, Number 1, Article 5, 1991
(p.93-94)

http://elibrary.law.psu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1132&context=psilr

To be honest, a very bad and ill-thought through article. I could go into detail on other points as well, but restrict myself only to consideration of the status of Gilgit (and incidentally, Baltistan). The points for those who would read the article are listed below, in bullet points:
  • Status of Gilgit (not Gilgit-Baltistan)
    • Question of sovereignty and the different rights of the lessor and the lessee: are the lessor's rights extinguished by the existence of a lessee and the administration of a property by a lessee?
    • Can the Maharaja be deemed to have never exercised sovereignty, when in fact his lessee was in full control, and reverted the control to the lessor on premature termination of the Lease?
  • Definition of Terra Nullius
    • No Man's Land - does it mean not administered, or not occupied and not administered?
    • Australian court judgement in the aborigine case - terra nullius necessarily requires an absence of a population
    • Gilgit was well-populated
    • Application of terra nullius to Gilgit is wholly mistaken
  • Transmission of sovereignty over Gilgit
    • Did the Maharaja have the right to transmit sovereignty to India?
    • Did the Maharaja have the sovereignty?
    • Did the Maharaja obtain the sovereignty without any gaps from his lessee?
    • If the Maharaja's lessee exercised administrative control over the territory, is it different from the Maharaja exercising administrative control?
  • Status of Baltistan
    • None of the arguments affect Baltistan
    • Present occupation is a forcible occupation
    • Considerations of effective sovereignty and possible terra nullius status do not apply to Baltistan
    • On what grounds is this still held?

As pointed out by H. Briggs (in THE LAW OF NATIONS 239, 240 (2d ed. 1952) (citing Island of Palmas
Case, (U.S. v. Neth.), 2 R. Int'l Arb. Awards 829 (Perm. Ct. Arb. 1928) (dispute over Spain's capability to cede the Island of Palmas to the U.S.)), Under international law, if a dispute arises as to sovereignty over a portion of territory where one party has actually displayed sovereignty, it is not enough for the other party to show territorial sovereignty once existed; it must also be shown that the territorial sovereignty has continued to exist and did exist at the time critical to deciding the dispute."

Maharaja never "effectively" controlled Gilgit and his sovereignty didn't extend to Gilgit when Pakistan annexed it, and therefore India didn't receive Gilgit under the so called instrument of accession (even if it's accepted as legally valid and complete) as the Maharaja, as per the international law, couldn't transfer more rights than he possessed .... So, under international law, Pakistan's claim on Gilgit is legally valid and justified.

On the contrary, the Maharaja and the British jointly conquered the territories involved; it was only later, upon the increase in insecurity of the British during the farcical period of the Great Game, that the territory was leased by the British.

Please consider the nature of a lease. During this period, the occupation and enjoyment of the property in question is with the lessee, in this case, the British; it is the lessee's administration that is exactly and precisely the administration of the lessor. At no time is the lessor's right of ownership vitiated by the presence of a lessee. The lessee 'effectively' controlled Gilgit; that is precisely and exactly the same as the lessor controlling Gilgit.

In addition to this, the author of the article you have cited, Howley, has claimed the status of terra nullius for Gilgit; this is an obvious and glaring error. A terra nullius refers to a patch of land which is not administered by anyone. Such terra nullius may be occupied by an individual, a corporation or a state, and no one can object to it, as the land effectively had not been in anybody's possession.

That was NOT the case in the case of Gilgit. The land was populated; populated land cannot be terra nullius, according to the Australian court judgement that I have cited several times now. The land was administered on the lessor's behalf, by the lessee; where is the question then of a terra nullius?

But more importantly, and as stated earlier, Pakistan has never refused to conduct a UN supervised plebiscite in Gilgit to resolve the dispute. It's India which won't allow such a plebiscite in the territory administered by them.

Not so, according to the Howley article that you have yourself cited. Pakistan flat out refused, when there was a UNCIP team trying to bring about a settlement, and refused to take even the first step required. So where then is the question of allowing a plebiscite?
 
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But China had a pragmatic and dynamic leadership.. Pak has corrupt arseholes.

the key is Pakistan Goverment, whether she can Rip the benefit out of CPEC.
the strategic key here is.
Stage 1 : complete all infrastructure and power plant needed for industrialization.
Stage 2 : Goverment policy to attract investment to pakistan such as Free Tax for 5 years and Land for 10-20 years ( depands on the scale of the investment along with TOT with local player)
stage 3 : education based on science and tech ( this is a must, if Pakistan want to catching up with the world and level up the value industrialization)

Pakistan in very strategic position, her pitching point is China market ( idealy i would add India market along with China, if only Pakistan being Pragmatic combine with india and China , you can pitching to investor for 2,5 Billions market)
this is like Malaysia pitching point for investor is indonesia market, while vietnam pitching point is China market.
Singapore pitching point is South East Asian.
Pakistan pitching point is China and india (if Pakistan Normalize relation with india, that would be perfect, same as China Normalize with japan.)
 
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Not so, according to the Howley article that you have yourself cited. Pakistan flat out refused, when there was a UNCIP team trying to bring about a settlement, and refused to take even the first step required. So where then is the question of allowing a plebiscite?

Pakistan has ALWAYS supported a democratic plebiscite since ever. It is india who rejects it every time. it is india who does not honor the UN Resolution at all. Every time Pakistan pushes for a plebscite, India replies "Kassmeer is inte gral parrrt of endia".

LMAO
:woot:
 
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@hellfire

The exchange, from the point that our friend intervened, is worth reading; ignore the earlier bits of confrontation with a rude and abusive 25 year old.

the key is Pakistan Goverment, whether she can Rip the benefit out of CPEC.
the strategic key here is.
Stage 1 : complete all infrastructure and power plant needed for industrialization.
Stage 2 : Goverment policy to attract investment to pakistan such as Free Tax for 5 years and Land for 10-20 years ( depands on the scale of the investment along with TOT with local player)
stage 3 : education based on science and tech ( this is a must, if Pakistan want to catching up with the world and level up the value industrialization)

Pakistan in very strategic position, her pitching point is China market ( idealy i would add India market along with China, if only Pakistan being Pragmatic combine with india and China , you can pitching to investor for 2,5 Billions market)
this is like Malaysia pitching point for investor is indonesia market, while vietnam pitching point is China market.
Singapore pitching point is South East Asian.
Pakistan pitching point is China and india (if Pakistan Normalize relation with india, that would be perfect, same as China Normalize with japan.)

Pragmatic and worthwhile note. As you have said, whether the CPEC turns out to be beneficial for Pakistan or not will depend on the ability of Pakistan and her leadership to exploit the CPEC for their country.

Pakistan has ALWAYS supported a democratic plebiscite since ever. It is india who rejects it every time. it is india who does not honor the UN Resolution at all. Every time Pakistan pushes for a plebscite, India replies "Kassmeer is inte gral parrrt of endia".

LMAO
:woot:

That is a motherhood and apple pie statement, that conceals an unpleasant truth. Please read the article by Howley that has been cited by @Azlan Haider.
 
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Ignore the delusional Mr. "Joe" above. Trying to sound educated and even adopting Western names isn't going to make him look any better.
 
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Ignore the delusional Mr. "Joe" above. Trying to sound educated and even adopting Western names isn't going to make him look any better.

I don't need to look any better, just need to make sense to the sensible. But you wouldn't know about that, would you?
 
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To be honest, a very bad and ill-thought through article. I could go into detail on other points as well, but restrict myself only to consideration of the status of Gilgit (and incidentally, Baltistan). The points for those who would read the article are listed below, in bullet points:
  • Status of Gilgit (not Gilgit-Baltistan)
    • Question of sovereignty and the different rights of the lessor and the lessee: are the lessor's rights extinguished by the existence of a lessee and the administration of a property by a lessee?
    • Can the Maharaja be deemed to have never exercised sovereignty, when in fact his lessee was in full control, and reverted the control to the lessor on premature termination of the Lease?
  • Definition of Terra Nullius
    • No Man's Land - does it mean not administered, or not occupied and not administered?
    • Australian court judgement in the aborigine case - terra nullius necessarily requires an absence of a population
    • Gilgit was well-populated
    • Application of terra nullius to Gilgit is wholly mistaken
  • Transmission of sovereignty over Gilgit
    • Did the Maharaja have the right to transmit sovereignty to India?
    • Did the Maharaja have the sovereignty?
    • Did the Maharaja obtain the sovereignty without any gaps from his lessee?
    • If the Maharaja's lessee exercised administrative control over the territory, is it different from the Maharaja exercising administrative control?
  • Status of Baltistan
    • None of the arguments affect Baltistan
    • Present occupation is a forcible occupation
    • Considerations of effective sovereignty and possible terra nullius status do not apply to Baltistan
    • On what grounds is this still held?



On the contrary, the Maharaja and the British jointly conquered the territories involved; it was only later, upon the increase in insecurity of the British during the farcical period of the Great Game, that the territory was leased by the British.

Please consider the nature of a lease. During this period, the occupation and enjoyment of the property in question is with the lessee, in this case, the British; it is the lessee's administration that is exactly and precisely the administration of the lessor. At no time is the lessor's right of ownership vitiated by the presence of a lessee. The lessee 'effectively' controlled Gilgit; that is precisely and exactly the same as the lessor controlling Gilgit.

In addition to this, the author of the article you have cited, Howley, has claimed the status of terra nullius for Gilgit; this is an obvious and glaring error. A terra nullius refers to a patch of land which is not administered by anyone. Such terra nullius may be occupied by an individual, a corporation or a state, and no one can object to it, as the land effectively had not been in anybody's possession.

That was NOT the case in the case of Gilgit. The land was populated; populated land cannot be terra nullius, according to the Australian court judgement that I have cited several times now. The land was administered on the lessor's behalf, by the lessee; where is the question then of a terra nullius?



Not so, according to the Howley article that you have yourself cited. Pakistan flat out refused, when there was a UNCIP team trying to bring about a settlement, and refused to take even the first step required. So where then is the question of allowing a plebiscite?

You are trying to reject/discredit an article/comment by an expert on international law, published by a reputed law journal. The article/comment is well referenced and makes some strong arguments which I believe require much more than just a personal opinion (what you are trying to do) to refute them.
 
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You are trying to reject/discredit an article/comment by an expert on international law, published by a reputed law journal. The article/comment is well referenced and makes some strong arguments which I believe require much more than just a personal opinion (what you are trying to do) to refute them.

It is not a personal opinion, it is a professional opinion. Please look up NALSAR.

I found the arguments singularly weak, and have explained why, in detail. Do let me know which part of my response you find inadequate. Or should I take it that there is in fact no reaction to be sought, and the Howley article is the sum and substance of the argument, warts and all?
 
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Not so, according to the Howley article that you have yourself cited. Pakistan flat out refused, when there was a UNCIP team trying to bring about a settlement, and refused to take even the first step required. So where then is the question of allowing a plebiscite?

Pakistan never refused to hold a plebiscite in Gilgit. I hope you realize that there is a difference between "flat out refusal" to conduct plebiscite/implement UN Resolutions and rejecting certain proposals made by UNCIP
 
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Pakistan never refused to hold a plebiscite in Gilgit. I hope you realize that there is a difference between "flat out refusal" to conduct plebiscite/implement UN Resolutions and rejecting certain proposals made by UNCIP

Those were not, in fact, proposals made by UNCIP, but were the stipulations of the main body. The UNCIP even pleaded with the Pakistani delegates not to seek any changes as they were not authorised to discuss or to negotiate any changes. Do look up the proceedings of the body; they are available as published documents.
 
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It is not a personal opinion, it is a professional opinion. Please look up NALSAR.

NALSAR ? India ?

India itself is a party to the dispute therefore it's not a neutral/credible source

And a properly referenced article/refutation will be much appreaciated
 
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