Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

[Abingdonboy]

Who the heck are you to tell someone to stop? It is his thread, his board. He can do as he please.

It's entirely out of line to propagate such lies about a democratically elected head of state that has been cleared by the judiciary in their land.

It is against forum rules to insult elected government officials anyway.

 

[Judge]

More rapid, more venomous , more intolerant.

Basically all negative?

 

[SQ8]

Basically all negative?

Yup. Essentially, I have seen the "level" of Indian(and for that matter Pakistani) go down since the new social media political phenomenons.

 

[Didact]

More rapid, more venomous , more intolerant.

A Pakistani General wouldn't be too concerned with rhetoric streaming from this side of the Wagah border. What he would and should be worried about is the colossal,relentless build up of intelligence capability by the IB, RAW and a host of other intelligence agencies inside Pakistan since 26/11.

It's almost astounding as to how low profile this build up has been, even though there has been more than enough signs of this for a while now. The recent capture, entrapment, kidnapping of top "freedom fighters" isn't just good luck, the machine behind the scene is gathering steam.

As of right now, this build up is focused against the terror outfits, almost to exclusion of everything else. But then again, it only takes a couple of meetings and a couple of verbal orders to realign it against an hostile entity, any entity.

Up until now, there really has been no realistic retaliation against "non-state actors", save for foaming in the mouth or getting hysterical fits. But signs are, this will change soon enough. For good or bad, I must reserve judgement I'm afraid.

 

[SQ8]

A Pakistani General wouldn't be too concerned with rhetoric streaming from this side of the Wagah border. What he would and should be worried about is the colossal,relentless build up of intelligence capability by the IB, RAW and a host of other intelligence agencies inside Pakistan since 26/11.

It's almost astounding as to how low profile this build up has been, even though there has been more than enough signs of this for a while now. The recent capture, entrapment, kidnapping of top "freedom fighters" isn't just good luck, the machine behind the scene is gathering steam.

As of right now, this build up is focused against the terror outfits, almost to exclusion of everything else. But then again, it only takes a couple of meetings and a couple of verbal orders to realign it against an hostile entity, any entity.

Up until now, there really has been no realistic retaliation against "non-state actors", save for foaming in the mouth or getting hysterical fits. But signs are, this will change soon enough. For good or bad, I must reserve judgement I'm afraid.

This is the change in the Indian "establishment/ think-tank" I have referred to. A rapid one infact, all things considered the Indian "Think tank" was still willing to talk and settle issues pre-Modi(or rather VIF) .

 

[Judge]

Yup. Essentially, I have seen the "level" of Indian(and for that matter Pakistani) go down since the new social media political phenomenons.

You are looking at things from purely Indo-Pak interactive perspective. There has been a lot more change in the last 6 months - though one that may escape your attention.

Nonetheless..
Let me ask a different question then - What has been the change in India (as a country) in the last 6 months ?

A Pakistani General wouldn't be too concerned with rhetoric streaming from this side of the Wagah border. What he would and should be worried about is the colossal,relentless build up of intelligence capability by the IB, RAW and a host of other intelligence agencies inside Pakistan since 26/11.

It's almost astounding as to how low profile this build up has been, even though there has been more than enough signs of this for a while now. The recent capture, entrapment, kidnapping of top "freedom fighters" isn't just good luck, the machine behind the scene is gathering steam.

As of right now, this build up is focused against the terror outfits, almost to exclusion of everything else. But then again, it only takes a couple of meetings and a couple of verbal orders to realign it against an hostile entity, any entity.

Up until now, there really has been no realistic retaliation against "non-state actors", save for foaming in the mouth or getting hysterical fits. But signs are, this will change soon enough. For good or bad, I must reserve judgement I'm afraid.

This is the change in the Indian "establishment/ think-tank" I have referred to. A rapid one infact, all things considered the Indian "Think tank" was still willing to talk and settle issues pre-Modi(or rather VIF) .

I am afraid the build up has not been enough and neither has it been fast.
It will gather steam now. Give it the coming 5 years and you will have a setup that rival's the depth of ISI's setup in India.

 

[SQ8]

Let me ask a different question then - What has been the change in India (as a country) in the last 6 months ?

Actually my lens is different to that as well. India as a country.. as infrastructure, jobs economy has been on the rise.
Indians as a people, as a society with tolerance, human capacity, balance.. are a different matter.

 

[Didact]

This is the change in the Indian "establishment/ think-tank" I have referred to. A rapid one infact, all things considered the Indian "Think tank" was still willing to talk and settle issues pre-Modi(or rather VIF) .

The hint about VIF is well taken. But to their credit, their stance has always been unshakable about this issue, not the wild groping in the dark style shown by the previous administration.

But as far as the 'Indian Establishment' is concerned, you may have been misled by the change in positions by the same bureaucrats. The structure here is very clear; The top dispensation decides the approach, the bureaucrats will absolutely fall in line, or find themselves being shunted out. They have very little room for maneuver in these matters, so blaming the establishment would be fallacious.

But that aside, let me ask you a counter question: You have an approach that's absolutely not working, rather your analysts are reporting to you that your approach is actually harming your interests. There is this other approach on the table, which you know now is more decisive, if more aggressive. Which one would you take?

It's the age of question once again: To do, or not to do? The stakes, well, couldn't be higher.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Indians as a people, as a society with tolerance, human capacity, balance.. are a different matter.

Please elaborate and explain or is it just plain old prejudice

 

[Judge]

Please elaborate and explain or is it just plain old prejudice

Nope, He is not much for prejudices that way. He has explained this in previous posts in another thread.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Instead of just posting bull crap, take a look at your history of bravery. 2002, you guys puss*ed out and went home, 2008, when you had ALL the reasons to start a war, you guys puss*ed out again and went home.

These empty threats like who is going to bring us to the negotiation table is useless crap in today's world. Macho talk is one thing. Macho talk with 0 action is just running your mouth. So next time, try to make some history and THEN say who is going to stop you. Your leaders don't have the back bone or the fire power to take it to the next level. It's a big guy with huge muscles and all....with a weak heart. If he tries to use his muscles, he may have chest pains so its all for people to see.

Last, 100 J-11's or even more -16's will ONLY make it more threatening to cross the border to be frank with you. I can't imagine the image of IAF and moral after losing 50-75 SU-30's......can you?

This is Neither 2002 nor 2008

After events of May 2 / 2011 ; India has the world opinion with us
Nobody will support Pakistan

And be assured that in the past six years post 26/ 11 ; we HAVE been building up our
capability AND now the intent is also there

The reference to " Heavies " ie J 11 was a repitition of what @MastanKhan Sir is
ALWAYS Quoting

That India can be FORCED to negotiate if PAF gets A few squadrons of HEAVIES

That is absolute NONSENSE

First of all you cant get heavies in a day or two

And India's conventional LEAD is absolutely UNASSAILABLE

And India will move heaven and earth but will NOT allow anybody to dictate terms for peace

If nobody could force India to negotiate in 1990 when we were bankrupt ;
then making India bow down will ONLY remain a dream or rather a delusion

 

[SQ8]

Please elaborate and explain or is it just plain old prejudice

Indians as a people I refer to the collective behaviour, or rather common behaviour towards both other Indians and those outside of India. There is a general rise in intolerance in terms of both religious, ethnic(to a small extent) and basic issue based differences(such as women's dress). This all stems from the social media phenomenon and the stark polarization it brought in. Emotions previously kept in closets were more routinely let out since the leadership itself was prone to these outbursts.
The result is the current Indian we see portraying himself/herself on the internet. Rapid, intolerant, spiteful against all those who disagree with their PoV.

If it were prejudice, I would not say that a similar effect is being seen in Pakistan.

If you ever follow the TV series "newsroom".. the current season has an interesting "debate" on whether news should be done by reporters or anyone with a smartphone should do it. The premise is that without the controlling hand of balance(as such almost withdrawn from the media today), all you have is ranting and rumour-mongering.
The same goes for today's internet Indian(or Pakistani). Have you ever heard about godwin's law? Take a look at it, and then replace the idea for what represents the idea of "worst examples" such as Hitler or Facism in our society(yes, there is much more common than we like to admit.. possibly 70%).
Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ive been here and on online forums on and off for a good 10 years now, and I can tell you that the time it takes for the law to take effect has been brought down exponentially over the last year.

 

[Viper0011.]

This is Neither 2002 nor 2008

After events of May 2 / 2011 ; India has the world opinion with us Nobody will support Pakistan

And be assured that in the past six years post 26/ 11 ; we HAVE been building up our capability AND now the intent is also there

That India can be FORCED to negotiate if PAF gets A few squadrons of HEAVIES.That is absolute NONSENSE

First of all you cant get heavies in a day or two. And India's conventional LEAD is absolutely UNASSAILABLE

And India will move heaven and earth but will NOT allow anybody to dictate terms for peace

If nobody could force India to negotiate in 1990 when we were bankrupt then making India bow down will ONLY remain a dream or rather a delusion

1) You are right. It is not 2002 or 2008. It is 2014. The calendar has shifted a few years ahead and IAF has more planes and all.....but the bottom line fact hasn't changed. India can't go to war with Pakistan. Period! When you do, come back and we'll debate it.

2) Capability and intent is there for a small scale conflict. But what your generals have said many times, the issue is, you can't make others to play your game. They don't know the red lines of escalation so why take a venture where there is a dead end at the end, without a turn in any direction for either party???

3) Heavies don't mean that India will negotiate. If you are a victim of terrorism, you should respond. Same goes for the Pakistanis, if you support terrorism through Afghanistan into their country (Baluchistan, Sindh, etc), they will do something about it too. So that's either party's right.
But heavies in a case of general war, will make it MUCH harder for India to rule the skies. The losses will be tremendous. You can write all these grandiose statements on here. But no one wants to lose 5 billion dollars worth of military hardware (specially SU-30 types of jets) and have half empty air force or top tier. Not to mention, such a war will also hit India much harder than Pakistan due to its economy and business industry.
Wars are not started due to a few's wishes, you always have to count for your loss and the reason you are going to war to begin with. In this case, you two are neighbors. You can work things out. Why put so many people's lives and an already poor region at much more risk of further degradation of human living conditions?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Nope, He is not much for prejudices that way. He has explained this in previous posts in another thread.

Could you please refer me to that thread

BTW what has changed so much in the last SIX months that warrants this statement
Indians as a people, as a society with tolerance, human capacity, balance.. .are a different matter.

What exactly has Modi Done

He has made India more assertive
Just because India has become more assertive NOW ; so we have become BAD

Secondly he is determined to take India to the NEXT LEVEL
both economically and militarily

All this spotlight on Modi and India is perhaps unpalatable
considering what is the relative situation in India and Pakistan

@orangzaib

This is the ANALYSIS of your own Expert Air Marshal Shehzad Chaudhry

Managing Modi - Shahzad Chaudhry

How might then Pakistan manage him? The first apprehension is will he war with Pakistan. Here is how it will go. He will begin with an immediate assessment of what his armed forces will need to gain an assured level of readiness – armed forces are always short of what they assume is absolute readiness; remember the nine months that Manekshaw needed before the 1971 war, or how the Indian army dithered after Mumbai from a reprisal action.

Modi’s aim will not be to seek a war. But come another situation like Mumbai 2008, he would like his military to respond with effect; of that there should be little confusion. Pakistan will then need to evolve its own plan to first deter and then respond to such a reprisal. That will put them both on a slippery slope of escalation dominance.



What both sides will need instead are measures and processes that will control and manage escalation, not dominate it. Failing these the spiral down the stability regime will be rather rapid; consequences untold and horrendous. It will also help if another Mumbai does not occur. We can be assured of Modi working hard to find space for an armed retribution if he was tested with something as horrible as that.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Indians as a people I refer to the collective behaviour, or rather common behaviour towards both other Indians and those outside of India. There is a general rise in intolerance in terms of both religious, ethnic(to a small extent) and basic issue based differences(such as women's dress). This all stems from the social media phenomenon and the stark polarization it brought in. Emotions previously kept in closets were more routinely let out since the leadership itself was prone to these outbursts.
The result is the current Indian we see portraying himself/herself on the internet. Rapid, intolerant, spiteful against all those who disagree with their PoV.

If it were prejudice, I would not say that a similar effect is being seen in Pakistan.

If you ever follow the TV series "newsroom".. the current season has an interesting "debate" on whether news should be done by reporters or anyone with a smartphone should do it. The premise is that without the controlling hand of balance(as such almost withdrawn from the media today), all you have is ranting and rumour-mongering.
The same goes for today's internet Indian(or Pakistani). Have you ever heard about godwin's law? Take a look at it, and then replace the idea for what represents the idea of "worst examples" such as Hitler or Facism in our society(yes, there is much more common than we like to admit.. possibly 70%).
Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ive been here and on online forums on and off for a good 10 years now, and I can tell you that the time it takes for the law to take effect has been brought down exponentially over the last year.

I understand what you are saying about the dangers of social media (an avid newsroom viewer here) but I also think that what we see today, not just in India but across the world, of social media being accused of causing xyz could also be a case of over reporting. Things can be reported today that would never be reported even 15 years ago. So it's actually quite hard to gauge what effect social media has had on society when social media itself is only a modern creation.