PAF Deploys to Northern Territories

[Falcon26]

You misunderstand what I said and are repeating what @MastanKhan said. The argument made by @MastanKhan was that India doesn't need to cover its five times larger space because of the state of PAF. I am categorically stating that viewing Indian procurements through a Pakistan specific lens is highly disingenuous. I am NOT saying that Pakistan will be helped by China. I am saying that Indian acquisition of Su-30 has a larger significance than Pakistan.

To summarize, if India procured SU-30, it DOES NOT automatically make sense for Pakistan to procure a 'heavy strike fighter'.

If the Su-30s were procured for a threat other than Pakistan, then it makes no sense to procure a jet that the supposed enemy already employs in record numbers (China) same with the Rafael. There’s no sense buying 36 Rafaels against China, but it makes sense against Pakistan. Same with every other Indian weapon. It’s illogical to think that at a time of war that all these assets won’t be deployed against Pakistan for decisive outcome in India’s favor.

 

[Trango Towers]

If the Su-30s were procured for a threat other than Pakistan, then it makes no sense to procure a jet that the supposed enemy already employs in record numbers (China) same with the Rafael. There’s no sense buying 36 Rafaels against China, but it makes sense against Pakistan. Same with every other Indian weapon. It’s illogical to think that at a time of war that all these assets won’t be deployed against Pakistan for decisive outcome in India’s favor.

Dont be surprised if war breaks out and there is a massive cruise missile strike againt all forward indian airfields and knowd air defence networks. Thatz the first thing PAK forces will do.

 

[CriticalThought]

If the Su-30s were procured for a threat other than Pakistan, then it makes no sense to procure a jet that the supposed enemy already employs in record numbers (China) same with the Rafael. There’s no sense buying 36 Rafaels against China, but it makes sense against Pakistan. Same with every other Indian weapon. It’s illogical to think that at a time of war that all these assets won’t be deployed against Pakistan for decisive outcome in India’s favor.

When the SU-30 procurement started, the Indians had no other options. They couldn't go and buy the FA/18 or the F-15, or even the EFT. India has been a long time Russian customer, and it makes perfect sense for them to procure the flankers.

Yes, there is a certain synergy for IAF in utilizing a platform against whatever enemy it faces. But the realities of IAF are very different from PAF. Are we at a disadvantage because of the order of battle we wield today? No! What can we make better? Get more numbers. I see one, and only one, case for the latest SU-35 - deep power projection into the Arabian Sea. Other than that, I think PAF should rapidly increase the numbers of Block 3 and Block 4 Thunders and keep working towards the fight gen aircraft.

 

[NA71]

though it is a little older write-up but very much relevant in the current situation:

https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/india-and-pakistan-are-quietly-making-nuclear-war-more-likely

"Here’s another scenario: India knocks out Pakistan’s only VLF transmitter in Karachi. The beleaguered commander of one of Pakistan’s diesel-electric submarines — lost in the fog of war, unable to communicate with the National Command Authority, and under attack by one of India’s highly capable anti-submarine hunters — launches a cruise missile. Is it armed with a conventional warhead or a nuclear warhead? Do Indian authorities wait until it hits a major population center to find out? Or do they order an immediate retaliatory attack?"

the remaining piece is worth reading .....

 

[GriffinsRule]

though it is a little older write-up but very much relevant in the current situation:

https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/india-and-pakistan-are-quietly-making-nuclear-war-more-likely

"Here’s another scenario: India knocks out Pakistan’s only VLF transmitter in Karachi. The beleaguered commander of one of Pakistan’s diesel-electric submarines — lost in the fog of war, unable to communicate with the National Command Authority, and under attack by one of India’s highly capable anti-submarine hunters — launches a cruise missile. Is it armed with a conventional warhead or a nuclear warhead? Do Indian authorities wait until it hits a major population center to find out? Or do they order an immediate retaliatory attack?"

the remaining piece is worth reading .....

Its pretty silly to think one cruise missile will make any difference to the outcome of a war, nuclear or not. Or that a Pakistan Navy or any other forces commander will be that reckless and unprofessional to use the nuclear card on his own.

As for the discussion going on about IAF, I would ask the members to check the map of IAF forward operational bases and then account for how many aircraft could they actually support in wartime, especially if they are within striking range of PAF. Even if IAF was to vacate all their airbases on the East by China and Bangladesh etc, and try to concentrate its assets against Pakistan, there is a saturation point, or vice versa, a bottle neck thanks to the logistics involved. Not only that, air forces actually disperse their fighters during wartime instead of building up concentrations where they might be vulnerable to attach while on the ground.

What the Su-30 offers them is certainly range, and the ability to station further from the Indo-Pak border, but that is also plays in favor for PAF as it will have a larger window of opportunity for early detection. It is helpful that IAF has a token number of A-A refuelers for its size, and they will be over-tasked.

Also, flying from further inland, coupled with a worse pilot-to-aircraft ratio, and on top having too many two-seater aircraft, will actually help PAF as well given that our pilots will be less fatigued and flying in familiar airspace...meaning quicker turn-around time and fresh minds (fewer mistakes). In air warfare, those can be determining factors on which opponent comes on top in an engagement.

Basically, while on paper it might seem like PAF is going to get overwhelmed, but I think in reality, there are many more factors that come into play and our air force is in pretty good shape to counter the IAF as it stands.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Whether the house is big or small the guard only has to watch the door, Indo-Pak common border in this case. WE (PAF) do not have the capability to attack India from any other side, conversely IAF and IN have both the capability and assets to attack us from the sea side also. It is PAF that will be stretched thin due to less number of planes and a two front attack.

Having greater strategic depth provides tactical advantage to IAF, not thins it out.

The IAF has 5 times- FIVE times more land area to cover, two to three fronts to cover and a massive coastline to defend which includes the possibility of duking it out over the far east. The requirements of the IAF against JUST the PAF are better fulfilled by a light fighter such as a combination of the Mig-29 and M2K which was an intial IAF staff requirement back in the 80’s.
The MKI was borne out of the fact that the Chinese were modernizing fast and that their main bases were behind plateu and out of reach of IAF aircraft while PLAAF bombers and Flankers could operate with impunity.
The other concern the IAF brought up was that both the PAF and IAF monitor each others nets and frontal approaches so clearly that it was extremely difficult to get surprises on each other. To offset this the IAF assumed that the range on the flanker would allow the IAF to create a second front with approaches from the ocean(something now negated with the PAF’s extremely thorough AEW assets).
Lastly, knowing the technological prowess of the F-16 even in its 30 year old form the IAF wanted an asset capable of dominating the airspace and by keeping the higher maneuvering assets of the PAF falling back against volleys of missiles to deplete energy especially since at that time it was assumed by the IAF that the PAF did not have BVR(no longer relevant since today’s PAF force is 70% BVR capaable and in most cases capable of earlier engagement-debates on this are like talking about whether cloud x will or wont rain in y square meter) .

More on the IAF and PaF here
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunder-made-for-the-paf.398270/

 

[araz]

Because the Indian geography, and hence the Indian airspace, are completely different from Pakistan.



Pakistan doesn't have the same level of defence capability as India. And India has aggressive, offensive plans backed by a fundamentalist Hindu mindset.

You are displaying absolute lack of knowledge on this subject. I suggest you engage your time in matters more suited to your abilities.

A bad post if I may say so. A worthy opponent should be responded to by logic and kind words, not by degradation. Your post was not worthy of you So you should amend it and answer the questions raised by the poster. He is not being aggressive why do you have to be so??? The underlined words are advise from our leader SAW, so pay heed to it.
A

Dont be surprised if war breaks out and there is a massive cruise missile strike againt all forward indian airfields and knowd air defence networks. Thatz the first thing PAK forces will do.

Unlikely to destroy the targets long enough for it to matter if at all, so unless you are Nuke tipping all your missiles it will not bear fruit. If you nuke tip the missiles, then it will be a free for all with scorched earth being the end result. I would love to say there is not going to be a war between the two nations but unfortunately there will be one with massive devastation.
At the moment PAF does not have an answer to Indian aggression other than making it so costly it will not be worth it. Our dire finances will not even allow us to possibly replenish our stores much less buy newer weapons.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

A bad post if I may say so. A worthy opponent should be responded to by logic and kind words, not by degradation. Your post was not worthy of you So you should amend it and answer the questions raised by the poster. He is not being aggressive why do you have to be so??? The underlined words are advise from our leader SAW, so pay heed to it.
A

Sir, the option to edit is no longer available.

 

[Trango Towers]

A bad post if I may say so. A worthy opponent should be responded to by logic and kind words, not by degradation. Your post was not worthy of you So you should amend it and answer the questions raised by the poster. He is not being aggressive why do you have to be so??? The underlined words are advise from our leader SAW, so pay heed to it.
A


Unlikely to destroy the targets long enough for it to matter if at all, so unless you are Nuke tipping all your missiles it will not bear fruit. If you nuke tip the missiles, then it will be a free for all with scorched earth being the end result. I would love to say there is not going to be a war between the two nations but unfortunately there will be one with massive devastation.
At the moment PAF does not have an answer to Indian aggression other than making it so costly it will not be worth it. Our dire finances will not even allow us to possibly replenish our stores much less buy newer weapons.
A

Only you mentioned nukes.

 

[araz]

Only you mentioned nukes.

And I stand by it. The restt of the post stands.
A

Sir, the option to edit is no longer available.

I merely wrote as I was surprised by a post very unlike you. There are very few here who maintain the standard of their posts so it is a bad taste in the mouth when you see a substandard post from people. There are situations where you use strong and even foul language , however this was not one of them. During the sulha of Hudaibiya Abu Bakr RA told the negotiator to go and eat the pivates of a woman a real insult in front of Rasool Allah SAW and he allowed it. However this was a rare occurrence. On another occasion he asked anotherSahabi to literally "shut his mouth" very sternly. The reason for reciting both instances is that while there is a time and place for insulting your opponent, one should be very careful in using slandrous terms and generally debate with reason and kind words. I only tell you this as I care enough to want you to pump up the standard of your posts not degrade them.
Kind regards.
A

 

[Trango Towers]

And I stand by it. The restt of the post stands.
A


I merely wrote as I was surprised by a post very unlike you. There are very few here who maintain the standard of their posts so it is a bad taste in the mouth when you see a substandard post from people. There are situations where you use strong and even foul language , however this was not one of them. During the sulha of Hudaibiya Abu Bakr RA told the negotiator to go and eat the pivates of a woman a real insult in front of Rasool Allah SAW and he allowed it. However this was a rare occurrence. On another occasion he asked anotherSahabi to literally "shut his mouth" very sternly. The reason for reciting both instances is that while there is a time and place for insulting your opponent, one should be very careful in using slandrous terms and generally debate with reason and kind words. I only tell you this as I care enough to want you to pump up the standard of your posts not degrade them.
Kind regards.
A

And i dont care....and i stand by that looool. Tut tut

 

[thinkingcap81]

I would love to say there is not going to be a war between the two nations but unfortunately there will be one with massive devastation.

Sir, I respectfully disagree with your opinion of nuclear devastation. You may be saying that since nuclear weapons are your mainstay to blunt Indian conventional superiority, but on the other hand we wish to take advantage of this conventional superiority and so nuclear options are less important to us.

Both Pakistan and India are rational actors though as an Indian i disagree with what Pakistan does. I do not think that in case of a conflict PA will do anything to cause devastation to Pakistan itself. I had responded to one of @Oscar 's post saying that PA considers Pakistan to be its baby - how can they cause sudden death to the baby?

It needs to be pondered why this nuclear threat looms large, at least in popular discourse, in the Indo-Pak context, while nothing of this sort happens in Sino-Indian context. In the Doklam incident when Chinese military officials and dailies went ballistic against India warning us of impending military doom, we mostly kept quiet.

I recently met an ex colonel of the IA. He just said that at the end of the day its all about the economy, its economic war. I think that a country more sure footed economically will automatically be more confident, aggressive and successful militarily against its opponents.

 

[SQ8]

Sir, I respectfully disagree with your opinion of nuclear devastation. You may be saying that since nuclear weapons are your mainstay to blunt Indian conventional superiority, but on the other hand we wish to take advantage of this conventional superiority and so nuclear options are less important to us.

Both Pakistan and India are rational actors though as an Indian i disagree with what Pakistan does. I do not think that in case of a conflict PA will do anything to cause devastation to Pakistan itself. I had responded to one of @Oscar 's post saying that PA considers Pakistan to be its baby - how can they cause sudden death to the baby?

It needs to be pondered why this nuclear threat looms large, at least in popular discourse, in the Indo-Pak context, while nothing of this sort happens in Sino-Indian context. In the Doklam incident when Chinese military officials and dailies went ballistic against India warning us of impending military doom, we mostly kept quiet.

Regarding Doklam, we here heard the opposite from India and plenty of news articles are available as proof of that.

However, one should not underestimate the power of emotion and desperation which can take over any rational thought as it has in Pakistan before and India today. A nuclear war is possible as a samson option and as such in itself guarantees peace because at the end India values itself more than Pakistan does.

You can convince 70% of Pakistan that all of them will be in heaven once the bombs fall and their miseries in life will end, you cannot do the same for India.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Regarding Doklam, we here heard the opposite from India and plenty of news articles are available as proof of that.

However, one should not underestimate the power of emotion and desperation which can take over any rational thought as it has in Pakistan before and India today. A nuclear war is possible as a samson option and as such in itself guarantees peace because at the end India values itself more than Pakistan does.

You can convince 70% of Pakistan that all of them will be in heaven once the bombs fall and their miseries in life will end, you cannot do the same for India.

Regarding Doklam, I do not think that we were less aggressive than China because we are more mature, rather i say that we were forced to be relatively much quieter and appear mature because we know China is a lot more powerful economically and militarily than India. And as you said, we value ourselves; at least we think and are somewhat convinced that eventually our destiny will be bright.

Yes there were comments, possibly even a couple from our Home Minister during the Doklam incident. But it seemed to me to be less aggressive, relative to Pakistan's against India, since it was tempered by our understanding of our position vis-a-vis China.

A nuclear war is possible as a samson option and as such in itself guarantees peace because at the end India values itself more than Pakistan does.

For the sake of trying to dominate over Pakistan we will try to negate this Samson option.

I think that you are over-reading the Hindutva influence on Indian strategic and military thinking on the nuclear issue. If Pakistan tried no such thing during the past and present mullah influence, then why would India? We'll still keep concentrating on conventional aspects though adopting a more hardline stance is almost a given.

 

[araz]

And i dont care....and i stand by that looool. Tut tut

More power to you my friend. I have said what I had to say. If you want to debate put up a rational response and we can talk.
Regards
A