‘Our budget was stagnant for 5-6 yrs. This has been restored’ Director General, DRDO

[livingdead]

So what do you suggest ?
Disband DRDO and out source allour defense need to UK ?


DRDO is like an underachieving son,yes.
But its ours.

first of all give gagging order to the maha feku head of DRDO, I guess they are chosen for that talent. Any claim should be validated by end user first (most of the time Indian armed forces).

 

[sancho]

@sancho DRDO has delivered a lot of products and technology
Don't be so biased that it clouds your judgement.

LOL so you think A.K. Antony, Arun Jaitley and the PM are biased when they all told DRDO the same thing? Not to mention that the forces are saying it as well.

DRDO is like an underachieving son,yes.
But its ours.

And what do you do with such a son? Teach him to how to improve, or keep spoiling him?

 

[greatone]

LOL so you think A.K. Antony, Arun Jaitley and the PM are biased when they all told DRDO the same thing? Not to mention that the forces are saying it as well.



And what do you do with such a son? Teach him to how to improve, or keep spoiling him?

Why are you asking me this ?
What purpose does it serve ?

 

[sancho]

Why are you asking me this ?

Because you brought up the example

 

[greatone]

Because you brought up the example

My point is- that question served no purpose.
Its not even rhetorical.

 

[sancho]

My point is- that question served no purpose.

Of course it does, since it asked for a solution on what to do with the son. Either keep spoiling him, or the parent to take action and teach him. So what would you do as a parent of such a son?

 

[greatone]

Of course it does, since it asked for a solution on what to do with the son. Either keep spoiling him, or the parent to take action and teach him. So what would you do as a parent of such a son?

In that case I humbly request you to not quote me asking such obvious questions in the future as I believe the answer is pretty clear.Going further with this line of questioning is a waste of time for both of us.

Thank you.

 

[Krate M]

What you say

it was about not delivering anything in return and simply starting new projects.

Is very very different from

Even the current PM criticized DRDO for not finishing projects according to the time lines.

I agree that DRDO needs to finish project in time, that there is wasteful spending by them, that they need to be reorganized. But unlike you I will not make a blanket statement that they have not given anything in return. That is where your bias lies. Also no DM or PM has said what you said above.

And any technology development as a rule does not follow stipulated time line, there are always delays. F35 A400m etc are current examples.

DRDO has delayed more than it should have, and I agree with that. But the fact that the forces and the government were also responsible to an extent. The money allotment that you think was adequate was not.

The lack of infrastructure is appalling and this kind of piecemeal allotment has hindered its development.

DRDO was forced to do a lot and I mean hell lot of reverse engineering of foreign supplied parts instead of
denovo design and development of technology and products. This lead to a lot of DRDO engineers becoming demoralized and large scale attrition. Wings of fire describes the aftermath of this. Disparaging attitude towards domestic product is an Indian attribute which has only started to change recently

The diluted SQRs for foreign products and stringent requirements for domestic is not a one off occurrence, but the general trend.

Tell me why has nag missile not been inducted.

Why almost at the end of development tests do AFs suddenly get urge to have new fangled features, and tranche or block or mk1,2 wise induction not happening.

The role of DPSUs in tarnishing domestic product image is another aspect. INSAS and arjun as well as other domestic products image was tarnished due to OFB QC or lack of it.

You have read or heard only one side, I have done both. I understand that the way forward is to force DRDO to develop products in reasonable time and to force the services to accept domestic product even if they are slightly inferior, so that future development can be used to improve the next version. Also private sector involvement in the production as well as design of basic stuff.

M16, merkava F16 and so on have become world class due to such continued support.

 

[sancho]

What you say...Is very very different from...

It's not, since the point is always the same, urging DRDO to deliver and not looking to more projects only and that's what all of them and I have in common.

I agree that DRDO needs to finish project in time, that there is wasteful spending by them, that they need to be reorganized. But unlike you I will not make a blanket statement that they have not given anything in return.

They did have some success, in missile, radar developments, or the naval field, but that's it. The IA developments for tanks, IFVs, ATGMs are all hugely delayed and troubled and as a result, we have to go to foreign counterparts.
The aviation side is even a huge disaster for DRDO, LCA, Kaveri, MMR and AWACS radar development, indigenous weapons for fighters, UAV's, all highly delayed or even failed, which not only forces us to foreign procurements, but are hitting the operational capability of the forces big times!
So with that track reckord, on what basis are they asking for more money for future developments (AMCA, AWACS INDIA...), when they didn't even have delivered the basics our forces need?
Don't let yourself blind by their PR and celebrations after a successful test or trial, because that doesn't help our forces as long as the product can't be fielded into operational service and that's why "delivering and focusing on finishing" developments is what the MoD has to remind DRDO on and on.

DRDO was forced to do a lot

No they wasn't, they chose to do a lot of unnecessary things and that complicated and delayed several developments. The LCA project is full of such unnecessary things, which is why DRDO is to blame for the situation of the fighter, not sanctions, not requirement changes after years of developments, not low orders when the products didn't meet the requirements..., so you can't excuse the faulty decisions they took.

You have read or heard only one side, I have done both.

Lets see, the former DM, the last part time DM, the new PM, the CAG and the forces, they all slams DRDO for delays and failed developments. Are these enough point of views to understand where the problem lies? I think so.

M16, merkava F16 and so on have become world class due to such continued support.

On the contrary, they were properly developed and fulfilled the requirements! => That's why they could be produced and inducted into operational service, => that's why they could be exported, => that's why the customer kept supporting and upgrading them.
You have to have a product first, before you can support it, not only the promise that you will get it someday. But that is what we see from DRDO, too many promises and too little results!

 

[Krate M]

So now you have come from

it was about not delivering anything in return

to

They did have some success, in missile, radar developments, or the naval field, but that's it.

The IA developments for tanks, IFVs, ATGMs are all hugely delayed and troubled and as a result, we have to go to foreign counterparts.

And in each case, the IA has been one of the major causes of delays,the arjun saga has now been laid bare. Nag missile is ready, so now IA is fibbing with the namica carrier, which you nicely sidestepped, so I ask again why has Nag missile not been inducted. BTW abhay TD is far better than BMP2M.(the next upgrade we are going to go for) But you know what, it is the DRDO that's responsible for the stringent only for domestic products requirement of the IA.

The aviation side is even a huge disaster for DRDO, LCA, Kaveri, MMR and AWACS radar development, indigenous weapons for fighters, UAV's, all highly delayed or even failed, which not only forces us to foreign procurements, but are hitting the operational capability of the forces big times!

Yup, the fact that setback happened to airavat project by death of most of its team in an accident, and then IAF stopped future development funding, which when resumed has lead to the highly capable AEWCS should not stop you from saying that. If you any idea about about what those humps and bumps on the AEWCS mean you will know how many capabilities we have crammed on that one plane.
And the aviation side is such a disaster that now a lot of avionics in Su-30MKI, Jaguar Darin III, Mig upgrades etc are now indigenous, and Mig 27 upgrade was done inhouse without OEM support.

Kaveri yes I agree with you has not been a success, but the challenge was not small by any measures, see the Chinese efforts with far better infrastructure and national impetus and their achievements.

UAV side nishant had to jump from all hoops army threw at it and succeeded. The delays in remaining projects are within reason and many due to external factors like moog actuators for Rustom-2.

And on one hand you want DRDO to take only a few projects and on the other saying it has not fulfilled so many needs.

No they wasn't, they chose to do a lot of unnecessary things

Completely false, DRDO was forced to reverse engineer a lot of Russian and other suppliers items after OEM support stopped due to various reasons. The Russians used different types of screws, nuts and bolts (difference in measurement due to use of different scale) than ones manufactured domestically and even they had to be reverse engineered. DRDO HAL BRD and various other research organizations were involved. This was a serious problem after collapse of the Soviet Union.

On the contrary, they were properly developed and fulfilled the requirements! => That's why they could be produced and inducted into operational service, => that's why they could be exported, => that's why the customer kept supporting and upgrading them.
You have to have a product first, before you can support it, not only the promise that you will get it someday. But that is what we see from DRDO, too many promises and too little results!

You my friend have no idea about development of M16, F16 and merkava then.

 

[Krate M]

@sancho What I am really against is your use of superlatives like all items are disaster, not delivered any thing in return, complete waste etc. Tone down your rhetoric and that would help you have a sensible discussion with all.

Hyperbole is not going to solve anything, it only makes your argument look biased and questionable.

DRDO isnt the next thing after sliced bread and armed forces are not gods who can make no mistakes. Nor is our MoD the best administrator etc. All are human beings from our own society.

For every chariot that DRDO wastes our money on, armed forces spend on golf carts and caps, lavish parties. The problem is not them, but us, because it is our mentality that everybody in the government misuses government money, our desire of things from foreign country over ours (like a gripen as a display pic ). That is an all pervading malaise. People in Armed Forces, DRDO and Government come from our midst. And for every rotten apple you also have people who have given everything for the country, that is true for Armed forces, DRDO and even babus.

Understand the system, everybody has flaws, but to know flaws, reduce or remove them and move forward is the way ahead.

 

[rubyjackass]

@sancho
DOD | BUDGET and ACCOUNTS
DRDO budget
2010-11 10148.92
2011-12 9893.84
2012-13 9794.80
2013-14 10610.17
So actually he is right, in fact the budget shrunk, and since this includes capital expenditure as well inflation has to be considered. So it shrunk by good margin. Given the fact that DRDO's projects have increased and several are in testing phase which would get priority, money for newer projects would have dried up as told by the director. Not to mention priority to strategic systems over tactical ones.

Both DRDO and Indian armed forces have wasteful expenditure and both should be reined in to utilize the public resources in a better way.

On the same note, if they damned produced a successful product, they would have gotten funds to put it on a production line. No sensible government, even the one under MMS, would have said no to funds for a production line.

 

[Krate M]

On the same note, if they damned produced a successful product, they would have gotten funds to put it on a production line. No sensible government, even the one under MMS, would have said no to funds for a production line.

DRDO is not a production agency. DPSU like HAL BHEL etc make the products. Production funds go to them example for Akash to BHEL, BEL etc.
There are times when successful products are not given production runs, Kalam's hovercraft is an example. And the less said about MMS government the better.
MMS government had lead to ammunition stock problems, which were solved recently, battery crisis in submarine leading to resignation of naval chief and many more.
They have cleaned out the treasury on their failed MGNREGA and other schemes.