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On Free Will and Destiny

H. Dawary

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Everything has a reason why... When an event occurs it must happen for a reason, even this thread, there was a reason as to why I began writing it, and there will be a reason why you will refuse to read further and a reason why you will read further.

There is a reason for everything, as the world is Cause & Effect, and if any person were to trace every cause down to its atomic structure therein will be cause, and a reason why it occurred, and it will be illuminated to the understand mind as to, why, if it were possible to investigate it...

This principle also applies to human beings, if for everything there is a cause and effect, then there is a reason as to why we do certain things and a reason as to why we don't. This brings us to the question of necessity, we recognise the necessity behind a ball touching the ground when it is let go off, taking into account gravity, mass etc. This simple cause and effect ratio is also apparent in human beings as each and every one of their actions there is that necessity also, but it is not realised due to the immediacy of the act.

Free will is a complicated affair... Do we have it or do we not? Take into question an athlete that shows up to a race track; Take this persons actions beforehand, there is the training process, the preparation, the application, the attendance to the race track. And finally as he is prepared, just when the ring blows, is there any shadow of a doubt that this person will change their mind at the sound of the ring? It is possible, but highly unlikely. Did this person possess any free-will? At some point this person may have when he was at a crossroads of reaching a decision in there might have been a semblance of free will, but as soon as the decision was made to become an athlete, everything thereafter was destiny.

Destiny is the result of a decision that is decided upon and every decision thereafter reflecting that decision that was made in the beginning.

Individually, each one of us is technically a free acting agent, but from afar and from a perspective, this is not the case. Although each one of us believes in being free, but as we have all each made a decision at some point we are only simply heading in the destined direction and are simply going through the process of cause and effect eventually reaching that destined point.
 
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What are your thoughts @Mangus Ortus Novem do you believe we are free, or do you believe in the middle ground as is illustrated in Islam destiny and free will.


Brother mine,

Mechanical Universe = Free Will

Magical Universe = Destiny

If there is only FreeWill then the need for God is not there. And if there is only Destiny then need for Action is not there.

I, however, believe that the Universe is a Personal Choice.... and that is the Gift and Curse we are given at birth... though we live our lives...most anyways, as the continum of where and to whom we are born... some Individuals do arise to change the continum...

Why you and I are not in OurLand? Was it written that we shall find ourselves here or is it just the mechanical consequence of what it is?


How did the Universe come about? Just happened... BigBang... to create all matter/energy...but out of nothing? If so then isn't it Magical?

Now .... at this phase in life... well... whatever really.... mostly a bemused observer.... but TheObserverEffect is real as well...

Perhaps, it is our deep uncertainty within that we cann't Manage The Paradox and try to make things Black n White to Function...

The question you ask is Simple. The Answer requires Manifestions of the either ...mentioned above.

Mangus

P.S. Would be nice if you see what it all means : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/mangusoniandialectics-mysteries-resolved-and-unresolved.654842/
 
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Brother mine,

Mechanical Universe = Free Will

Magical Universe = Destiny

If there is only FreeWill then the need for God is not there. And if there is only Destiny then need for Action is not there.

I, however, believe that the Universe is a Personal Choice.... and that is the Gift and Curse we are given at birth... though we live our lives...most anyways, as the continum of where and to whom we are born... some Individuals do arise to change the continum...

Why you and I are not in OurLand? Was it written that we shall find ourselves here or is it just the mechanical consequence of what it is?


How did the Universe come about? Just happened... BigBang... to create all matter/energy...but out of nothing? If so then isn't it Magical?

Now .... at this phase in life... well... whatever really.... mostly a bemused observer.... but TheObserverEffect is real as well...

Perhaps, it is our deep uncertainty within that we cann't Manage The Paradox and try to make things Black n White to Function...



The question you ask is Simple. The Answer requires Manifestions of the either ...mentioned above.

Mangus

P.S. Would be nice if you see what it all means : https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/mangusoniandialectics-mysteries-resolved-and-unresolved.654842/

Is the mechanical universe dependent upon cause and effect? Can the necessity of cause and effect beget free will?
 
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Is the mechanical universe dependent upon cause and effect? Can the necessity of cause and effect beget free will?


Yes... however, what is the Original Cause?

What drives Causation and
Why?

Why sometimes things don't happen even when the Conditions for them to happen are there?

Why there are coincidences?

Causation... reflect in Effect....

What is TheObserverEffect then?

We need to understand the 'Scope' or 'Range' of FreeWill...

I am FREE to Ask Laniakea to Grieve ... but Can I Cause Laniakea to Grieve?

Even though I can 'feel'/'see'/'imagine' Laniakea... and I am made of Stardust just like yourself and everything everywhere in the Universe...

Easy way out is to choose either Mechanical or Magical Universe... and nothign wrong with it... because to the Universe it won't make a difference....

The FreeWill is nothing other than Framing the ExternalWorld with a Mechanical Absolutism... the core essence of the Western Thought... nothing wrong with it... given that this has made the Material Gain/Development possible... does this prove that there is no God?

Any assending movement with its gains imposes itself on the object... from Human Progress/Revolutions to a flood in Kabul/Swat River...

Can we see it all without being in HumanCondition? Is it possible even and if not why not?

Perhaps, the great challenge to be able to believe in both and still Function... Managing The Paradox... if I don't eat I shall die...but God has promised me food...

You always start great discussion... that is why people like you deserve to be TT and not the mass accumulated thus far @Slav Defence
 
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Yes... however, what is the Original Cause?

What drives Causation and
Why?

Why sometimes things don't happen even when the Conditions for them to happen are there?

Why there are coincidences?

Causation... reflect in Effect....

What is TheObserverEffect then?

We need to understand the 'Scope' or 'Range' of FreeWill...

I am FREE to Ask Laniakea to Grieve ... but Can I Cause Laniakea to Grieve?

Even though I can 'feel'/'see'/'imagine' Laniakea... and I am made of Stardust just like yourself and everything everywhere in the Universe...

Easy way out is to choose either Mechanical or Magical Universe... and nothign wrong with it... because to the Universe it won't make a difference....

The FreeWill is nothing other than Framing the ExternalWorld with a Mechanical Absolutism... the core essence of the Western Thought... nothing wrong with it... given that this has made the Material Gain/Development possible... does this prove that there is no God?

Any assending movement with its gains imposes itself on the object... from Human Progress/Revolutions to a flood in Kabul/Swat River...

Can we see it all without being in HumanCondition? Is it possible even and if not why not?

Perhaps, the great challenge to be able to believe in both and still Function... Managing The Paradox... if I don't eat I shall die...but God has promised me food...

You always start great discussion... that is why people like you deserve to be TT and not the mass accumulated thus far @Slav Defence

If there is a limited number of determination points, and I can only choose within that limit and not unlimited then is my range of free will by necessity constrained?
 
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If there is a limited number of determination points, and I can only choose within that limit and not unlimited then is my range of free will by necessity constrained?


Conundrum!


And within that range we can make whatever think we can.... always trying to extend our range... is that OurDestiny?


If you have time please critique the MangusonianDialectics... you might find them not totally useless...

Regarding the range ...why is everything fixed within it own Nature? Is that Accident or Design?

If it was/is Accident then why there are Laws governing the Universe? Why the Universe then doesn't as a Composite have a FreeWill?

And if the Universe as Composite doesn't have a FreeWill then how come we can claim a total Freedom?

Why there is Paradox?
 
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Conundrum!


And within that range we can make whatever think we can.... always trying to extend our range... is that OurDestiny?


If you have time please critique the MangusonianDialectics... you might find them not totally useless...

Regarding the range ...why is everything fixed within it own Nature? Is that Accident or Design?

If it was/is Accident then why there are Laws governing the Universe? Why the Universe then doesn't as a Composite have a FreeWill?

And if the Universe as Composite doesn't have a FreeWill then how come we can claim a total Freedom?

Why there is Paradox?

I will for sure...

Unfortunately this is the limit of my understanding that Allah (God) has given me. If I had more perhaps I could have illuminated more, but I have reached my limit therefore I can't give an answer.
 
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I will for sure...

Unfortunately this is the limit of my understanding that Allah (God) has given me. If I had more perhaps I could have illuminated more, but I have reached my limit therefore I can't give an answer.


Brother mine,

You are one of us... even to others I never ask questions to prove anything.... you should know by now...

Perhaps, I was not asking questions...but rather attempting to draw your attention to something... so that you make the 'discovery' yourself!!!

Chin up, you!!!

Mangus
 
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We can not freely control our heart beat the way we do with our hands and feets at will. Our neuron and hormone activities are outside of our control in the same way. Therefore, even the act of moving voluntary mussles like our hands may NOT be out of our free will. My take on this is that absolute free will doesn't exist in the known universe.
 
.
Everything has a reason why... When an event occurs it must happen for a reason, even this thread, there was a reason as to why I began writing it, and there will be a reason why you will refuse to read further and a reason why you will read further.

There is a reason for everything, as the world is Cause & Effect, and if any person were to trace every cause down to its atomic structure therein will be cause, and a reason why it occurred, and it will be illuminated to the understand mind as to, why, if it were possible to investigate it...

This principle also applies to human beings, if for everything there is a cause and effect, then there is a reason as to why we do certain things and a reason as to why we don't. This brings us to the question of necessity, we recognise the necessity behind a ball touching the ground when it is let go off, taking into account gravity, mass etc. This simple cause and effect ratio is also apparent in human beings as each and every one of their actions there is that necessity also, but it is not realised due to the immediacy of the act.

Free will is a complicated affair... Do we have it or do we not? Take into question an athlete that shows up to a race track; Take this persons actions beforehand, there is the training process, the preparation, the application, the attendance to the race track. And finally as he is prepared, just when the ring blows, is there any shadow of a doubt that this person will change their mind at the sound of the ring? It is possible, but highly unlikely. Did this person possess any free-will? At some point this person may have when he was at a crossroads of reaching a decision in there might have been a semblance of free will, but as soon as the decision was made to become an athlete, everything thereafter was destiny.

Destiny is the result of a decision that is decided upon and every decision thereafter reflecting that decision that was made in the beginning.

Individually, each one of us is technically a free acting agent, but from afar and from a perspective, this is not the case. Although each one of us believes in being free, but as we have all each made a decision at some point we are only simply heading in the destined direction and are simply going through the process of cause and effect eventually reaching that destined point.

IMO, the answer lies in "consciousness". But then again what is that? Is it something derived by intrinsic constrains of fear, joy, reward, loss? Or just a window to your reality? Or is it more than that. If these constrains are taken away from you, what would be your choice? That's the part where one put an effort in to making choice say between a, b and so on and so forth. But then there are times where you don't make choice and it's done for you unconsciously. Does that count as free will?

they are interlinked, but once you change the parameters, it doesn't matter. You take away the strains, your whole choices will change. If today i tell you that you will be having food, health, security, house with out working for it, will you be making the same choices that you are making today? Your family's health, security if they are guaranteed what would be your choices in life. So does these factors are driving your free will or other way around?

What is your consciousness? that you are present? and you perceive certain things? friends, family, happiness. It is nothing a window given to you to look in to your realities. But if you break free from those conditions. That's where the possibilities of answers start from.
 
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IMO, the answer lies in "consciousness". But then again what is that? Is it something derived by intrinsic constrains of fear, joy, reward, loss? Or just a window to your reality? Or is it more than that. If these constrains are taken away from you, what would be your choice? That's the part where one put an effort in to making choice say between a, b and so on and so forth. But then there are times where you don't make choice and it's done for you unconsciously. Does that count as free will?

they are interlinked, but once you change the parameters, it doesn't matter. You take away the strains, your whole choices will change. If today i tell you that you will be having food, health, security, house with out working for it, will you be making the same choices that you are making today? Your family's health, security if they are guaranteed what would be your choices in life. So does these factors are driving your free will or other way around?

What is your consciousness? that you are present? and you perceive certain things? friends, family, happiness. It is nothing a window given to you to look in to your realities. But if you break free from those conditions. That's where the possibilities of answers start from.

Very good, I am astonished that you came across consciousness by yourself, this is something Philosophers in succession through one another uncovered...

Although this is still uncharted territory as it hasn't been full uncovered (and I doubt it will be in the future), I will write down the most important points that have been discovered...

Freedom is a negative, meaning to "NOT" (the not gives it its negtive form) be constrained.

Freedom is of three types... 1) Intellectual, 2) Physical, 3) Moral

The moral is linked with consciousness.
 
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