What's new

Officially becoming a secular liberal person

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, they have.
And I am one of those who have complained about it as well. And no one has complained of Muslims being in leadership roles.

The entire complaints here were that Congress was/is treating Muslims as a vote bank and taking sides instead of making laws and taking actions to treat individuals as individuals. We call it vote bank politics here and it has led to the word 'minority appeasement' becoming common parlance along with tokenism. The Congress was not doing anything to genuinely help out the Muslims into becoming prosperous and educated, they were just coopting the mullahs so that they can get votes.

Nehru did not do this, neither did Indira.

People have voted against votebank politics. I see it as a progressive step forward.


Then like every decent human being, I will not do it.

Considering that I run around this forum handling complaints like that on and off, I cannot agree to it.
Votebank politics exist for a reason. They play on human nature, which is exactly what I discussed earlier. Human nature as a collective that can be manipulated depending on education and on the makeup of the society. News articles being posted here on a daily basis only support that idea that regardless of claims on "why" Modi came to power. the ones who are celebrating it the most are hardline Hindus, and those that have been killed or prosecuted as "celebration" are Muslims.
So far in his first few days as the beacon of progress, Modi has not looked into nor has shown concern for the welfare of Indian Muslims; you may call it appeasing of his votebank or secularism...but it only solidifies my point further: People are best represented by those from their community because at the end of the day its the ties that count.
 
Yes, they have.
And I am one of those who have complained about it as well. And no one has complained of Muslims being in leadership roles.

The entire complaints here were that Congress was/is treating Muslims as a vote bank and taking sides instead of making laws and taking actions to treat individuals as individuals. We call it vote bank politics here and it has led to the word 'minority appeasement' becoming common parlance along with tokenism. The Congress was not doing anything to genuinely help out the Muslims into becoming prosperous and educated, they were just coopting the mullahs so that they can get votes.

Nehru did not do this, neither did Indira.

People have voted against votebank politics. I see it as a progressive step forward.


Then like every decent human being, I will not do it.
Now there GOES YOUR NATURAL DESIRE and in comes the flexible decency ....ha ha .
 
As I said before. Hadith from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are of highest caliber. When the Prophet directly orders us to do something then It will be preferred over what we derive from the Quran. (the way you did)

Anyways I just contacted a scholar from CII and he says that the hadith is sahih and he agrees that a disbeliever will be a second class citizen.

Now you can put me back to your Ignore list. I won't be bothering because I find the way it censors posts, very annoying.
No idea who or what is CII

Browse through this: Rules of Greeting Non Muslims In Islam.

Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 8, Book 74, Number 275:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "If the people of the Scripture greet you, then you should say (in reply), 'Wa'alaikum (And on you).' "

Saheeh Muslim

Book 026, Number 5380:

Anas b. Malik reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When the People of the Book offer you salutations, you should say: The same to you.


Book 026, Number 5381:

Anas reported that the Companions of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to him: The People of the Book offer us salutations (by saying as-Salamu- 'Alaikum). How should we reciprocate them? Thereupon he said: Say: Wa 'Alaikum (and upon you too).


So here from the Hadith we see how we should reply back to the People of the Book. But why did this command come about in the first place?


The reason could be made clear by reading the following Hadith…


Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 8, Book 74, Number 274:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "When the Jews greet you, they usually say, 'As-Samu 'alaikum (Death be on you),' so you should say (in reply to them), 'Wa'alaikum (And on you)."



Volume 8, Book 75, Number 404:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Jews used to greet the Prophet by saying, "As-Samu 'Alaika (i.e., death be upon you), so I understood what they said, and I said to them, "As-Samu 'alaikum wal-la'na (i.e. Death and Allah's Curse be upon you)." The Prophet said, "Be gentle and calm, O 'Aisha, as Allah likes gentleness in all affairs." I said, "O Allah's Prophet! Didn't you hear what they said?" He said, "Didn't you hear me answering them back by saying, 'Alaikum (i.e., the same be upon you)?"



Volume 9, Book 84, Number 62:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "When the Jews greet anyone of you they say: 'Sam'Alaika (death be upon you); so you should say; 'Wa 'Alaika (and upon you).'"

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 60:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

A Jew passed by Allah's Apostle and said, "As-Samu 'Alaika." Allah's Apostle said in reply, "We 'Alaika." Allah's Apostle then said to his companions, "Do you know what he (the Jew) has said? He said, 'As-Samu 'Alaika.'" They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we kill him?" The Prophet, said, "No. When the people of the Book greet you, say: 'Wa 'Alaikum.'"

Saheeh Muslim

Book 026, Number 5382:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When the Jews offer you salutations, tome of them say as-Sam-u-'Alaikum (death be upon you). You should say (in response to it): Let it be upon you.


Book 026, Number 5384:

'A'isha reported that a group of Jews came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and sought his audience and said: As-Sam-u-'Alaikum. A'isha said in response: As-Sim-u-'Alaikum (death be upon you) and curse also, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: 'A'isha, verily Allah loes kindness in every matter. She said: Did you bear what they said? Thereupon he said: Did you not hear that I said (to them): Wa 'Alaikum.


Book 026, Number 5386:

'A'isha reported that some Jews came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and they said: Abu'l-Qasim (the Kunya of the Holy Prophet), as-Sam-u-'Alaikum, whereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Wa 'Alaikum. A'isha reported: In response to these words of theirs, I said: But let there be death upon you and disgrace also, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: 'A'isha, do not use harsh words. She said: Did you hear what they said? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Did I not respond to them when they said that; I said to them: Wa'Alaikum (let it be upon you).



Book 026, Number 5388:

Jabir b. Abdullah reported that some people from amongst the Jews said to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) Abu'l-Qasim. as-Sam-u-'Alaikum, whereupon he said: Wa 'Alaikum, A'isha was enraged and asked him (Allah's Apostle) whether he had not heard what they had said. He said, I did hear and I retorted to them (and the curse that I invoked upon them would receive response from Allah), but (the curse that they invoked upon us) would not be responded.

Abu Dawud

Book 41, Number 5187:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of the Jews greets you saying: Death may come upon you, reply: The same to you.


Taken from Greeting Non-Muslims

If all the texts of this Hadith are collected and analyzed, what comes to light is the fact that the People of the Book used to mischievously twist their tongue in a swift manner and instead of saying the proper words of the salutation would say Assamu ‘alaykum (Death be to you all), which when quickly pronounced sounded very near to the original words of Assalamu ‘alaykum. It was to counter this devilish prank that the Muslims were directed to say: Wa ‘alaykum (To you too). It must be borne in mind that the Muslims were asked to give this particular reply only after the truth had been revealed in its ultimate form by the Prophet (sws) to the People of the Book after many years of propagation, and in spite of that they were not willing to submit to it. Had this ultimate stage not come, one can safely conclude that Muslims would never have been asked to reply with equally harsh words and would have continued to say the words: Assalamu ‘alaykum, the best of prayers and the best of wishes.


It also comes in Hadith that Muslims should greet every body they see…

Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 104:

Narrated Al-Bara' bin 'Azib:

The Prophet ordered us to do seven (things) and forbade us from seven. He ordered us to visit the patients, to follow the funeral procession, to reply to the sneezer (i.e., say to him, 'Yarhamuka-l-lah (May Allah bestow His Mercy upon you), if he says 'Al-hamdulillah' (Praise be to Allah), to help others to fulfill their oaths, to help the oppressed, to greet (whomever one should meet), and to accept the invitation (to a wedding banquet). He forbade us to wear golden rings, to use silver utensils, to use Mayathir (cushions of silk stuffed with cotton and placed under the rider on the saddle), the Qasiyya (linen clothes containing silk brought from an Egyptian town), the Istibraq (thick silk) and the Dibaj (another kind of silk). (See Hadith No. 539 and 753).



Volume 7, Book 69, Number 539:

Narrated Al-Bara' bin 'Azib:

Allah's Apostle ordered us to do seven things and forbade us from seven. He ordered us to visit the sick, to follow funeral processions, (to say) to a sneezer, (May Allah bestow His Mercy on you, if he says, Praise be to Allah), to accept invitations, to greet (everybody), to help the oppressed and to help others to fulfill their oaths. He forbade us to wear gold rings, to drink in silver (utensils), to use Mayathir (silken carpets placed on saddles), to wear Al-Qissi (a kind of silken cloth), to wear silk, Dibaj or Istabraq (two kinds of silk).



Volume 7, Book 70, Number 553:

Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:

Allah's Apostle ordered us to do seven things and forbade us to do seven other things. He forbade us to wear gold rings, silk, Dibaj, Istabriq, Qissy, and Maithara; and ordered us to accompany funeral processions, visit the sick and greet everybody. (See Hadith No. 104)



Volume 8, Book 74, Number 253k:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:

A man asked the Prophet, "What Islamic traits are the best?" The Prophet said, "Feed the people, and greet those whom you know and those whom you do not know."


We see in these Hadith that the Prophet ordered us to greet people. He did not specify a limit as to whom we should greet. However, when we look at other Hadith we see that Muslims are not to initiate greetings with the People of the Book…


Saheeh Muslim

Book 026, Number 5389:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.


Book 026, Number 5390:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Suhail with the same chain of transmitters but with a slight variation of wording. The hadith transmitted on the authority of Waki', the words are 'When you meet the Jews." And in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Shu'ba, the words are: 'When you meet the People of the Book." And in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Jarir the words are:" When you meet them," but none amongst the polytheists has been mentioned explicitly by name.

Abu Dawud

Book 41, Number 5186:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

Suhayl ibn AbuSalih said: I went out with my father to Syria. The people passed by the cloisters in which there were Christians and began to salute them. My father said: Do not give them salutation first, for AbuHurayrah reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not salute them (Jews and Christians) first, and when you meet them on the road, force them to go to the narrowest part of it.

It is possible that the Prophet only meant it for the Jews as we can see in the Hadith above because the Jews were known to have said ‘death be upon you and therefore it was a way for Muslims to show their disapproval of them.


The Prophet most likely gave the commands to greet everybody at first and then when the problem of Jews coming along saying ‘death upon you’, the Prophet would have had to reverse his judgment.


It is unknown why the Prophet issued the order as to why Muslims shouldn’t greet nonbelievers first. The Prophet also gave other orders as to whom who should greet who first…


Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 8, Book 74, Number 250:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The young should greet the old, the passer by should greet the sitting one, and the small group of persons should greet the large group of persons. "


Volume 8, Book 74, Number 252:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The riding person should greet the walking one, and the walking one should greet the sitting one, and the small number of persons should greet the large number of persons."



Volume 8, Book 74, Number 252e:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The younger person should greet the older one, and the walking person should greet the sitting one, and the small number of persons should greet the large number of persons."


Saheeh Muslim

Book 026, Number 5374:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The rider should first greet the pedestrian, and the pedestrian the one who is seated and a small group should greet a larger group (with as-Salam-u-'Alaikum).


As there is some wisdom to the why the Prophet had ordered why certain individuals greet others first there must be some wisdom as well behind why non-Muslims should greet Muslims first.


Imam Malik was of the opinion that it’s not that big of a problem if a Muslim did greet a non-Muslim first….


MALIK MUWATTA

Book 53, Number 53.2.3:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abdullah ibn Dinar that Abdullah ibn Umar said that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When a jew greets you, and says 'Death to you' (as-samu alaykum) say, 'And to you.' "

Yahya said, "Malik was asked whether a person who greeted a jew or christian, should apologise for it. He said, 'No'."


Lets take a look at the opinions of scholars about all the issues discussed…


Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani has in his commentary…



greetings_2.jpg





:Source الرئيسة - الحديث - موقع الإسلام


A group of the Salaf (early generation of Muslims) said that you should reply back saying ‘Alaykum Assalam’ just like how you would reply back to a Muslim, and others using God’s statement stating that you should greet and Al Maroudi said that the opinion of some of the Shafi’s is that you should not say ‘Rahamatullah’ (and mercy of Allah be upon you), and should be done at all times, and on the authority of Ibn Abbas and A’lqama that it should be done only at a time of necessity, and on Awzaa’ee: If you greet then the righteous have greeted, and if you left then they left and a group of scholars said: Their greetings should not even be replied back to, and some of them said it is a differentiation between the Dhimmis and enemies of war.



Imam Nawawi has in his commentaries…

greetings_3.jpg



Source: الرئيسة - الحديث - موقع الإسلام



The scholars have agreed that a response should be given if the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) give greetings, but it should not be said to them: “Wa Alaykum Assalam”, and only say: “Wa Alaykum”


Another group said that we are obliged to begin greetings with them.


And some of our companions said: It is disliked to greet them first, but not forbidden, and this is weak as well because the Prophet had forbidden it. So it is forbidden to greet them first, and Al Qadi said that you should only greet them first if there is a need or reason to, and this is the opinion of Alqama and Nakha’ee.


And some of our companions said: You should reply back saying ‘Wa Alaykum Assalam”, but not “Wa Rahamatullah”, says Maaroodi and this is weak because it contradicts the Hadith and God knows best.



greetings_4.jpg




Source: الرئيسة - الحديث - موقع الإسلام


Our companions said: The Dhimmi is not left to walk in the middle of the pathway, he should be forced to walk on its sides if the Muslims are walking through, if the pathway is not crowded then it is okay (for them to walk in the middle of the pathway), and the forcing them to the sides should not be done as to let him be in a congested and uncomfortable position, and that he should not hit a wall, and God knows best.



Imam Malik has in his commentary…
greetings_5.jpg


Source: الرئيسة - الحديث - موقع الإسلام



And it is narrated on Al Sha’bi that he said to a Jew: “Wa Alaykum Assalam Wa Rahmatullah” so it was said to him: You told a Jew “Wa Rahamatulla” (and mercy of Allah be upon you)? So he replied back saying: Isn’t he living under the mercy of Allah? And some other people said that you should say “Wa Alaykh Assalam” (and on you be peace) by saying “Siilam”



greetings_6.jpg




Awn Ma’bood has in his commentary…


Source: الرئيسة - الحديث - موقع الإسلام


And Ibn Maalik said: meaning don’t leave them walking the main pathway if it is in a situation of crowdedness but if the pathway was empty and not crowded then it is okay.





Conclusion


To sum it all up, there are different opinions. Some may think that the Prophet only ordered the rules of greeting the non-Muslims for that particular time because of the tension between them and the majority believes that it is still applied to this day. Shaykh Mahmood Ghaith of Ajman, UAE states that Muslims could greet non-Muslims first but not with the Islamic greeting. He could say eg. Hello, good morning etc.


Even if a non-Muslim tells a Muslim the Islamic greeting, the Muslim is still returning the peace of God upon him. So there is nothing offensive in the reply anyway. The Prophet probably stated that Muslims should return the greeting to other Muslims in a better way to increase the love and brotherhood within the Muslim community. This could be a special greeting that only Muslims should do for each other just like how both Paul and Peter urged first-century Christians to greet each other with holy kisses (Romans 16:16; 1 Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:26; 1 Peter 5:14) and God knows best.



 
i have always supported a conservative islamic pakistan, but recent events and experiences in my life have changed my mind quite a bit. from here on i am official a liberal Pakistani and will always advocate for a secular democratic Pakistan.
i would like to apologize to some of the secular members on here for anything i might have said to them to make them mad or angry.
maa sadkay, i need to choke u.
 
Considering that I run around this forum handling complaints like that on and off, I cannot agree to it.
Votebank politics exist for a reason. They play on human nature, which is exactly what I discussed earlier. Human nature as a collective that can be manipulated depending on education and on the makeup of the society. News articles being posted here on a daily basis only support that idea that regardless of claims on "why" Modi came to power. the ones who are celebrating it the most are hardline Hindus,
Votebank politics agree because people are less educated.
And the part you highlighted is just self serving bias - youv done an MBA - you understand the term.
Most people in India voted for Modi. Are you telling me that not all those who voted for Modi are celebrating his win? Just the hardline Hindus? The logic is very shaky.

and those that have been killed or prosecuted as "celebration" are Muslims.
So far in his first few days as the beacon of progress, Modi has not looked into nor has shown concern for the welfare of Indian Muslims; you may call it appeasing of his votebank or secularism...but it only solidifies my point further: People are best represented by those from their community because at the end of the day its the ties that count.

Are you aware that Muslims have voted very heavily for him as well? Almost all the Shias and Ahmadis voted for him? Even many Sunni's though majority of Sunni's voted against him.

Now corelate this with the fact that Sunni's are amongst the poorest and most illiterate people of India. The mullah's guide their voting behaviour.
There is a reason I said that Congress has done nothing real for Muslims in bringing them education or prosperity and have instead coopted the mullah's. It is in the collective interest of both Congress and mullah's that the Muslims(Sunni's) remain poor, uneducated and constantly frightened so that they remain under the control of these 'leaders'.

What does this tell you?

A substantial number of Muslims who are educated and prosperous even among Sunni's have voted for Modi.
What does this tell you?

I am not quite sure what you expect Modi to do for Muslims in his first 7 days in office. Heck, I am not sure what you expect Modi to do for any Indian in first 7 days.

What I do know that he will do is - increase the economy. Make law and order better.All these things will help each Indian. Focus on providing schools in each area. There is a reason why Muslims are the least educated group - schools are not close enough or good in their areas. I expect these fundamental changes in the country as a whole - where every Individual of any group or affiliation will prosper and better his life.
 
Last edited:
I dont even get what you are saying here. Please be more lucid.
So ,if you can not find a like minded female who wants to enjoy sex with you voluntarily ,you will suppress the natural urge with decency for as long as the desired one does not come along.Good,but what about those in society, who are not well endowed with the tool of decency?........Is that lucid enough?.
 
So ,if you can not find a like minded female who wants to enjoy sex with you voluntarily ,you will suppress the natural urge with decency for as long as the desired one does not come along.Good,but what about those in society, who are not well endowed with the tool of decency?........Is that lucid enough?.
Those are criminals who will exist even in a Sharia governed state or even when Martians rule the Earth.
 
then do one thing,,,,stfu and don't reply to me again and again.
i have an allergy to stupid people like u

as usual u can cal
The only thing you dont carry with you is perhaps Kirpan,the other 4 Ks you wear all the times,advertising your
religion of SIKHISM and still call yourself an Atheist?.

oh yeah,i do because sikhism is a cultural identity rather than a religious one for me.
but i am gonna get a revolver pretty soon though,lol.

i don't care whether u have beard,wear skullcap or whatever......................its the thinking that matters
 
damn man i wish i hadn't lol.
the response kinda rough.
You call this forum rough!?
Guess what happened to me when my friends knew about my secular thoughts, they turned on me!
Dude you've no idea about how stuff rolls here!

Your reasoning is sound and to the point. Still have not told us what exactly tipped you to it. That reason could be something that could change countless other lives for my country possibly. It is easy to come to the conclusion you have in the western world. I am surprised it took this long.
Sir with all due respect everywhere i see in this society there are no real Muslims!
Hypocrites and sects is all there is!
And let's forget about the "Mullahs" shall we......
 
Last edited:
as usual u can cal


oh yeah,i do because sikhism is a cultural identity rather than a religious one for me.
but i am gonna get a revolver pretty soon though,lol.

i don't care whether u have beard,wear skullcap or whatever......................its the thinking that matters
"Sikhism is a cultural identity rather than religious one" OEY YAWAY SIKH,HOLI BOL<KITE KOI KHALSA NA SUNN LE.
 
i have always supported a conservative islamic pakistan, but recent events and experiences in my life have changed my mind quite a bit. from here on i am official a liberal Pakistani and will always advocate for a secular democratic Pakistan.
i would like to apologize to some of the secular members on here for anything i might have said to them to make them mad or angry.
I have always been one. Not sure if you are pulling the legs of the folks here!
 
Those are criminals who will exist even in a Sharia governed state or even when Martians rule the Earth.
Forgive me ,but what is it that you smoke? You keep falling off the track...and i am tired of picking you up again and again.Good bye.
 
You call this forum rough!?
Guess what happened to me when my friends knew about my secular thoughts, they turned on me!
Dude you've no idea about how stuff rolls here!


Sir with all due respect everywhere i see in this society there are no real Muslims!
Hypocrites and sects is all there is!
And let's forget about the "Mullahs" shall we......

What did you expect? With all the data you have in today's world only those who can not or do not want the answer are bound to follow idiocy. There is a balance to everything, a balance that it necessary. Without balance this world would not have existed. With no balance those who have this plague are doomed to fade away. There is no bigger fact and all important personalities and divine books and religions have preached it. Its not magic or wisdom unheard of. It is common sense. Those leading the sheep have their goals mapped out, specially for their families in better conditions. Not in the preached world hereafter, but this one. Such is the cruelty of life.
 
Janab time pass hogaya hai aab mein nay jaldi jaldi biryani khali hai aur sath mazaydar chatpatay baingun, aap dur bhatai hain warna tu aap ko invite karta.
It seems your Biryani has become talk of the towns.If it is not some kind of clever publicity for opening
ceremony of your culinary business venture to rival McDonald's,KFC,or Pizza Hut ,can we have the recipe please?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom