NYT: Modi Pushes Xi to Resolve Border Issue in Kashmir

[Europa]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/19/w...-to-resolve-border-issue-in-kashmir.html?_r=0

This time, Indian analysts seemed happy to concede that their side was largely to blame for the escalation of tensions along the Kashmiri border. “The Indians have normally been very placatory,” Mr. Guruswamy said. “But this time, it’s India’s show of force.”

NEW DELHI — Smiles rarely left the faces of the top leaders of India and China here on Thursday, but India’s new prime minister sent a tough message to his Chinese guest by pressing him for a resolution to a border dispute that escalated abruptly.

A large contingent of Indian troops, which one official said numbered in the thousands, was mobilized on Thursday to face an equivalent number of Chinese troops in Ladakh, Kashmir, a largely high-altitude barren Himalayan landscape where jingoism and military misery have dominated for decades.

Only India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, could have ordered such a mobilization, said Mohan Guruswamy, a military analyst with the Observer Research Foundation.


The Chinese president, Xi Jinping, is in the middle of a three-day Indian visit that has been billed as the beginning of a great economic and political partnership between China and India. A number of deals, including those for high-speed trains and economic zones, had been promised at a total price tag that officials hinted could reach as much as $100 billion — nearly three times what Japan, China’s foremost Asian rival, recently promised to India.

But Mr. Modi made clear to the Chinese that India’s patience with an uncertain border situation had worn thin and that any great crop of deals must await a territorial resolution, analysts said.

“The prime minister sent a very strong signal that the Chinese have to agree to a fixed line of actual control before we start doing serious business with them,” Mr. Guruswamy said.

Instead of $100 billion in deals, the two sides agreed to a more modest target of infrastructure and industrial development that was valued at $20 billion to $50 billion. In a news media briefing, Mr. Modi made some of the most pointed remarks about the border uncertainty with China that any Indian leader has uttered in decades.

“I raised our serious concern over repeated incidents along the border,” Mr. Modi said.

“While our border-related agreements and confidence-building measures have worked well, I also suggested that clarification of the Line of Actual Control would greatly contribute to our efforts to maintain peace and tranquility and requested President Xi to resume the stalled process of clarifying the L. A. C,” he added, referring to the border between the two countries.

India has been pressing China for years to delineate a clear boundary between the two countries, hundreds of miles of which are in dispute. Both sides have been building up their military presence in the region in recent years.

“We’ve always been the ones pressing for a defined and well-controlled line of control, but the Chinese have always been very evasive about it and have refused to give us a map,” said K. Shankar Bajpai, a former Indian ambassador to China. “We’ve always struggled with the question of why.”

Leaders of the Bharatiya Janata Party, which now leads the government, long complained that the previous government under Manmohan Singh was too timid in its dealings with Pakistan and China regarding territorial disputes and incursions. Last year, when a platoon of Chinese troops camped out for weeks in Ladakh, Mr. Singh mostly sought to defuse the crisis. Indian officials said at the time that it was the People’s Liberation Army that created the standoff.

This time, Indian analysts seemed happy to concede that their side was largely to blame for the escalation of tensions along the Kashmiri border. “The Indians have normally been very placatory,” Mr. Guruswamy said. “But this time, it’s India’s show of force.”

Indian military and paramilitary officials declined to provide official comment about the standoff with the Chinese.

A call to the press line of the Chinese foreign ministry was not answered.

Mr. Bajpai, the former ambassador, said Mr. Modi was clearly sending a message to China.

“And his message is that it’s all very nice to talk about business,” Mr. Bajpai said, “but this territorial stuff is not an area where you can play ducks and drakes with us as you have in the past.”

Hari Kumar contributed reporting from New Delhi.



to know more about border dispute in kashmir, read here

Officials dismiss China's Kashmir border claims - The Hindu

 

[Europa]

This time, Indian analysts seemed happy to concede that their side was largely to blame for the escalation of tensions along the Kashmiri border. “The Indians have normally been very placatory,” Mr. Guruswamy said. “But this time, it’s India’s show of force.”

do chinese cheerleaders have anything more to say?

 

[danger007]

Only way is a thermonuclear 1962.

ok good night son..

 

[ranjeet]

Only way is a thermonuclear 1962.

we gonna duck that ... a la Bush style !!!

 

[Europa]

had the former indian government been so aggressive towards chinese, they would have already supported india for unsc,

Will support India's UNSC bid, says China | Business Standard News

you have to understand chinese psychology, when you deal with china, be aggressive and humiliate the chinese, they will become tamed and will follow your orders obediently.

this victory for india, which means pre-september 10 status quo or reclaiming at least 4000 square km of lands from chinese is a first step to recover occupied aksai chin from china but it will continue. excellent job done by the government of india.

this has made india proud and made india earn respect from the world. strength earns respect, weakness earns humiliation. new delhi will certainly celebrate this victory.

 

[isro2222]

it seems modi slaped snake, dog eating chinese president. china came around american ship and when america sended its most advanced battle ship suddenly chinese ships runaway. they like to poke when no one around but when a country gets aggressive suddenly coward snake dog eating chinese gay army runaway. funny they sended local people into 5 km indian side and hidden behind them. Modi makes china shiver. modi meeting dalai lama and than he off to america. it seems more bad news for snake and dog eaters.

 

[Europa]

it seems modi slaped snake, dog eating chinese president. china came around american ship and when america sended its most advanced battle ship suddenly chinese ships runaway. they like to poke when no one around but when a country gets aggressive suddenly coward snake dog eating chinese gay army runaway. funny they sended local people into 5 km indian side and hidden behind them. Modi makes china shiver. modi meeting dalai lama and than he off to america. it seems more bad news for snake and dog eaters.

it was planned long ago, today, the government of india shares its victory with every indian

 

[jbond197]

Its like 100th thread on the same topic.. Can someone merge?

it was planned long ago, today, the government of india shares its victory with every indian

So we sent our forces to protect our land. How exactly you claim this as a victory?

 

[Europa]

Its like 100th thread on the same topic.. Can someone merge?

So we sent our forces to protect our land. How exactly you claim this as a victory?

its victory because the land was reclaimed from chinese occupation. chinese have retreated to pre-sept 10 position. just wait, they will retreat more and more and more and more, and their cheerleaders will be shocked more and more and more. chinese cheerleaders can't take chinese defeat, they can't believe in chinese defeat. but fact is fact. you will know more about indian victory after a few days. meanwhile, let the chinese members keep posting photographs of their plastic toys.

 

[Genesis]

its victory because the land was reclaimed from chinese occupation. chinese have retreated to pre-sept 10 position. just wait, they will retreat more and more and more and more, and their cheerleaders will be shocked more and more and more. chinese cheerleaders can't take chinese defeat, they can't believe in chinese defeat. but fact is fact. you will know more about indian victory after a few days. meanwhile, let the chinese members keep posting photographs of their plastic toys.

I have just one question, since you mentioned plastic toys, can you name me one nation that has bought a major system from India in the last whatever years.

I usually don't like to do any bashing cause it's lame and stupid, but I seen too many of your posts that screams troll, so I will troll you in return.

At least our weapons exist, at least we can induct things, at least our industry is confident of exporting, not like the Indian industry, 30 years on a crap fighter like LCA, and can't even export a gun on the international market for private use and scrutiny.

At least we don't build one ship in 10 years, and wait for it to be obsolete, at least our GDP isn't less than a nation with only 1/20 of our population, at least we have trains that go faster than a cow cart, and somehow at that speed still kills far far more than our accidents.

At least we have major cities that are clean and runs smoothly, unlike yours that have major power outages.

I can go on and on.


If you want to be nationalistic, be one, don't use cheap insults, cause India is far less developed than China, it be like us laughing at the US. It's stupid.

 

[Europa]

I have just one question, since you mentioned plastic toys, can you name me one nation that has bought a major system from India in the last whatever years.

I usually don't like to do any bashing cause it's lame and stupid, but I seen too many of your posts that screams troll, so I will troll you in return.

At least our weapons exist, at least we can induct things, at least our industry is confident of exporting, not like the Indian industry, 30 years on a crap fighter like LCA, and can't even export a gun on the international market for private use and scrutiny.

At least we don't build one ship in 10 years, and wait for it to be obsolete, at least our GDP isn't less than a nation with only 1/20 of our population, at least we have trains that go faster than a cow cart, and somehow at that speed still kills far far more than our accidents.

At least we have major cities that are clean and runs smoothly, unlike yours that have major power outages.

I can go on and on.

If you want to be nationalistic, be one, don't use cheap insults, cause India is far less developed than China, it be like us laughing at the US. It's stupid.

all the toys become plastic toys, when the operators of those toys don't find their balls hanging.

i know its difficult for you to accept defeat but hey, burying head in the sand will not going to change facts on ground. do you know english, read the nyt report in my first post.

Indo China talks force China pull back troops in Ladakh



there were some chinese who thought narendra modi would be taken for granted, lol, they had no idea what was coming to them still, you have chance to vacate entire aksai chin peacefully because you have no idea who you are dealing with, you don't know narendra modi and rss

Significantly, through the day, the BJP’s communication cell regularly tweeted the PM’s tougher comments on the Line of Actual Control as well as visas. It finally tweeted on its official handle @bjpsamvad, “Chinese had been halted and pushed back from Chumar in Ladakh by Indian Army.”

Under Sangh pressure, Modi takes hard line on incursions - The Hindu

 

[Genesis]

all the toys become plastic toys, when the operators of those toys don't find their balls hanging.

i know its difficult for you to accept defeat but hey, burying head in the sand will not going to change facts on ground. do you know english, read the nyt report in my first post.

Indo China talks force China pull back troops in Ladakh



there were some chinese who thought narendra modi would be taken for granted, lol, they had no idea what was coming to them still, you have chance to vacate entire aksai chin peacefully because you have no idea who you are dealing with, you don't know narendra modi and rss

Significantly, through the day, the BJP’s communication cell regularly tweeted the PM’s tougher comments on the Line of Actual Control as well as visas. It finally tweeted on its official handle @bjpsamvad, “Chinese had been halted and pushed back from Chumar in Ladakh by Indian Army.”
Under Sangh pressure, Modi takes hard line on incursions - The Hindu

Funny, you didn't try to refute any of my claims, though, trolling it is, even you accept them as true. So let's just both avoid trolling from now on.


Before we get to the point of this, let me ask you, why would you even consider Congress to be selling out, it was them that fought for India's independence.

Modi may have had tougher comments, I don't know, but he essentially is working with the same army, same economy that Congress was. If he can do more than Congress must be selling out the country which is ludicrous if you think about it.

That leaves just one conclusion, today Modi can do no more than Congress regardless of what he says.


You are just like those Chinese youth pre-1937, 1937, full Japanese invasion was on, it was apparent to the students, it wasn't the government selling out the country, it was the decision makers are all too aware of the difference in power. The battle of Shanghai completely destroyed the Elites of China. After that people no longer accused the government of cowardice.


At present, the chinese army in Tibet is far stronger than any Indian can master, we have every weapon needed form Space to underground. While India must place tenders for mundane things like artillery, China is going for the next generation in precision strikes.

The difference between India and China is actually bigger than China US. While China US equation has China with inferior weapons, India cannot make those weapons period. For example India must import Apache, while Chinese Z-10 is less effective in terms of armor and range, we already have 100+ of these with more on the way, not to mention Z-19, the equivalent to your LCH, yours is still in prototype, while we have been working with them for half a decade, with about 200 in service.

Most of these weapon systems are about how many places can you deploy them to support your troops, a Apache can support the same number as a Z-10 while being better, it can still be destroyed just as easily if not given the proper protection.

So, with the weapons you imported like Apache, you do have an advantage, but you don't have enough of them to make a difference. At any one time you maybe able to launch 12 Apache if all are in the area, but 12 can only support about 12-15 companies, that's only a regiment, but India has divisions after divisions there. If you launch all of them for a while you will be without support, so you must hold some in reserve, that and other reasons as well.

While Tibet military zone, we can have a amy aviavtion brigade there, and if it calls, supporting aviation brigades will move to support from Xinjiang, Chengdu, and Lanzhou. We can gather about 500 helicopters with just those regions and at about 150 of them will be attack helicopters.

That's just the helicopters.

 

[Europa]

Funny, you didn't try to refute any of my claims, though, trolling it is, even you accept them as true. So let's just both avoid trolling from now on.

Before we get to the point of this, let me ask you, why would you even consider Congress to be selling out, it was them that fought for India's independence.

Modi may have had tougher comments, I don't know, but he essentially is working with the same army, same economy that Congress was. If he can do more than Congress must be selling out the country which is ludicrous if you think about it.

That leaves just one conclusion, today Modi can do no more than Congress regardless of what he says.

You are just like those Chinese youth pre-1937, 1937, full Japanese invasion was on, it was apparent to the students, it wasn't the government selling out the country, it was the decision makers are all too aware of the difference in power. The battle of Shanghai completely destroyed the Elites of China. After that people no longer accused the government of cowardice.

At present, the chinese army in Tibet is far stronger than any Indian can master, we have every weapon needed form Space to underground. While India must place tenders for mundane things like artillery, China is going for the next generation in precision strikes.

The difference between India and China is actually bigger than China US. While China US equation has China with inferior weapons, India cannot make those weapons period. For example India must import Apache, while Chinese Z-10 is less effective in terms of armor and range, we already have 100+ of these with more on the way, not to mention Z-19, the equivalent to your LCH, yours is still in prototype, while we have been working with them for half a decade, with about 200 in service.

Most of these weapon systems are about how many places can you deploy them to support your troops, a Apache can support the same number as a Z-10 while being better, it can still be destroyed just as easily if not given the proper protection.

So, with the weapons you imported like Apache, you do have an advantage, but you don't have enough of them to make a difference. At any one time you maybe able to launch 12 Apache if all are in the area, but 12 can only support about 12-15 companies, that's only a regiment, but India has divisions after divisions there. If you launch all of them for a while you will be without support, so you must hold some in reserve, that and other reasons as well.

While Tibet military zone, we can have a amy aviavtion brigade there, and if it calls, supporting aviation brigades will move to support from Xinjiang, Chengdu, and Lanzhou. We can gather about 500 helicopters with just those regions and at about 150 of them will be attack helicopters.

That's just the helicopters.

lets discuss facts:

The Indian defence establishment feels the People's Liberation Army troops, given their "weak tactical position" at Chumar, may themselves withdraw after "a few more days of posturing to save face". Intervention at a "higher" government or diplomatic level to de-escalate the situation is also underway, said sources.

Tactically, the Indian positions at Chumar are better-placed on the ridge at a height of around 15,000 feet, which "overlook" the Chinese positions. Far ahead of their bases, the PLA troops are now being "sustained" on a regular basis by their helicopters air-dropping rations and supplies.

Moreover, the Indian Army has 15 battalions (800 soldiers each) deployed across eastern Ladakh, including five Ladakh Scouts units as well as four units each under the 70 Kiari and 114 Tangtse brigades, all "acclimatised" for the high-altitude region.

"There are other reserve battalions under the 14 Corps headquartered at Leh. The PLA, however, cannot swiftly build up its troop strength in Chumar beyond a point.

but hey, its too late, you lost the game, your president has already signed the agreement which means chinese soldiers's retreat. thank you.

 

[StormShadow]

it seems modi slaped snake, dog eating chinese president. china came around american ship and when america sended its most advanced battle ship suddenly chinese ships runaway. they like to poke when no one around but when a country gets aggressive suddenly coward snake dog eating chinese gay army runaway. funny they sended local people into 5 km indian side and hidden behind them. Modi makes china shiver. modi meeting dalai lama and than he off to america. it seems more bad news for snake and dog eaters.

Dont comment on the food brother. Hunger is same for a Chinese or an Indian.

 

[Genesis]

lets discuss facts:

The Indian defence establishment feels the People's Liberation Army troops, given their "weak tactical position" at Chumar, may themselves withdraw after "a few more days of posturing to save face". Intervention at a "higher" government or diplomatic level to de-escalate the situation is also underway, said sources.

Tactically, the Indian positions at Chumar are better-placed on the ridge at a height of around 15,000 feet, which "overlook" the Chinese positions. Far ahead of their bases, the PLA troops are now being "sustained" on a regular basis by their helicopters air-dropping rations and supplies.

Moreover, the Indian Army has 15 battalions (800 soldiers each) deployed across eastern Ladakh, including five Ladakh Scouts units as well as four units each under the 70 Kiari and 114 Tangtse brigades, all "acclimatised" for the high-altitude region.

"There are other reserve battalions under the 14 Corps headquartered at Leh. The PLA, however, cannot swiftly build up its troop strength in Chumar beyond a point.

but hey, its too late, you lost the game, your president has already signed the agreement which means chinese soldiers's retreat. thank you.

See everything you pointed out is subjective, weak in what way, Allies invasion was weak, but because of superior fire power and support, after that initial lose they quickly over ran the Nazi positions.

PLA troops can be supported by Y-8 medium transport plane, and the helicopters. Right now I will admit, we are not in a strong position, but wait until Z-20 and Y-20 finish by about 2017-18.

India could probably do more in a you have more men kind of way. Tibet lacks the strategic importance of Beijing, as all our elites with the best toys are concentrated there and Shanghai.

Yes, eventually we have to leave, but give it time. We still lack the equipment for a sustained offensive, but the same concerns don't seem to affect the Indian side.


Just a fun fact, Japanese invasion actually took place in 1931 when they took "manchuria," but they didn't continue due to limitations, but by 37 they overcame much and the actual assault began. Unless India built up at 10 times the current projections, you will have major problems facing us in just 5 years.