News for Mirage-2000 upgrade

[KEETARP]

Guys hang on .

Before pointing guns , do you know the prices of Aircraft before making statements.
Mig29K without weapons and spares has been signed at 1.5Billion for additional 29in numbers more.

Su30mki price is up 3billion for 42 fighters.

Gripen NG price is 70 miilion per piece and additional 3 billions for maintenance of 36 for Brazil air force

Rafale's flyaway cost is 80-90 million , do you know French have quoted 6.4 billion for 36 rafales and additional 2.8 billion for spares for next 30 years for BRAZIL. Even this is discount by 2 billions what initial offer was.

Read my previous post abt cost of missile of MICA. And even more India's OFFSET policy ensures 30% of cost returns to India itself. Are you aware 30% of 2.2 bill will come back to Indian local Industry itself
Sextant India in this case.

 

[deckingraj]

GUYS HOLD ON before jumping into conclusions -YES the upgrade deal is COSTLY but dont just say that gripens can be bought at the same price as the gripens may cost nearly as much as the upgrade deal but induction and assimilation into the force structure takes lots more money and most importantly time
HECK the iaf is not buying cars for gods sake so be patient the mirage is not a bad aircraft at all it was the main strike aircraft for the strategic neuclear command for delivering nukes maybe even now it has the same job to do
exept for the engines and the airframe this will be a brand new jet so dont whine for every small thing

With all due respect sir if i am the customer and out there to buy a product i will surely buy stuff which provides me the bast buck for my money...Now if i am going for an upgrade deal and see that there is another plane that can do the same job but is new and latest than i surely would go for it...If the upgrade Mirage can complement the IAF inventory for 20 years than new Gripen can do the same for 40 years...and here we are talking about a 4.5 generation aricraft which is one of the bidder for MMRCA....


As far as time and training is involved then yes your point is valid but can't we divide and conquer???? As i said in previous post it seems IAF is sucking up the cost to deny avionics to JF17 Thunder....

 

[manish123]

I guess we Indians should take it a bit easy.Unless we know what sort of missiles we are getting as part of this deal all estimates are just guesses.Better to talk about things when we know which weapons/missiles have the french are fitting. This business of too expensive is just pure hot air without knowing the types of weaponry/missiles being purchased.As far as Israelis go,, they offered something cheaper but maybe are not in a position to supply the same missiles we want or we want to diversify our souces of weapons.So my guess is to enjoy this package till the missles are made public.

 

[karan.1970]

GUYS HOLD ON before jumping into conclusions -YES the upgrade deal is COSTLY but dont just say that gripens can be bought at the same price as the gripens may cost nearly as much as the upgrade deal but induction and assimilation into the force structure takes lots more money and most importantly time
HECK the iaf is not buying cars for gods sake so be patient the mirage is not a bad aircraft at all it was the main strike aircraft for the strategic neuclear command for delivering nukes maybe even now it has the same job to do
exept for the engines and the airframe this will be a brand new jet so dont whine for every small thing

bang on! and dont forget this was the best option India was able to deploy in Kargil...

 

[imran iqbal]

With all due respect sir if i am the customer and out there to buy a product i will surely buy stuff which provides me the bast buck for my money...Now if i am going for an upgrade deal and see that there is another plane that can do the same job but is new and latest than i surely would go for it...If the upgrade Mirage can complement the IAF inventory for 20 years than new Gripen can do the same for 40 years...and here we are talking about a 4.5 generation aricraft which is one of the bidder for MMRCA....


As far as time and training is involved then yes your point is valid but can't we divide and conquer???? As i said in previous post it seems IAF is sucking up the cost to deny avionics to JF17 Thunder....

Case is simple really, our babu's has put all the eggs in same basket. Su30 MKI are also equipped with French radars and EW suite. IAF is really scared by the mere fact of Pakistan getting their hands on same tech. Rather its a win for France as they armtwisted their way through in negotiating price.

Ditching Mirage and equipping Gripen would have been a wiser choice considering the fact that our LCA is going to have same GE engine. So no logistical rhetoric is believable.

This deal would have been fair if french agreed to overhaul engine and airframe. But then again, it cannot be compared to Swedish Gripen NG.

On the Second thought....

I suspect Rafale is out of MMRCA and that's why IAF upgraded Mirage due to Kargill paranoia. Gripen uses Uncle sam's hardware subject to sanctions anytime. Typhoon is heading home, that's what i get.

 

[prototype]

it seems a lot of these deals r directly associated with the MMRCA deal

russia is our biggest defense supplier and we have ordered them an additional order for new s-30 mki's--seems mig 35 is out of the race

france-3rd biggest supplier--they got mirage upgrade offer---i think rafael is also out of race+forget J-17,we can give u enough

seems eurofighter is on the way,a consortium that include german,italian and british companies,so r these companies also a no go for pakistan

 

[lhuang]

it seems a lot of these deals r directly associated with the MMRCA deal

russia is our biggest defense supplier and we have ordered them an additional order for new s-30 mki's--seems mig 35 is out of the race

france-3rd biggest supplier--they got mirage upgrade offer---i think rafael is also out of race+forget J-17,we can give u enough

seems eurofighter is on the way,a consortium that include german,italian and british companies,so r these companies also a no go for pakistan

Is India also going to join the consortium?

 

[prototype]

Is India also going to join the consortium?

no india will not,but these companies may have some kind of partnership with india's HAL if we go for the deal

 

[Haanzo]

As far as time and training is involved then yes your point is valid but can't we divide and conquer???? As i said in previous post it seems IAF is sucking up the cost to deny avionics to JF17 Thunder....

what do you mean by divide n conquer ?????
we dont have the details of the upgrade path like the mig-29 yet on the public forum - we will know this only after signing the deal .....new weapons maybe which the israelis cant provide .... PLEASE DONT FORGET the original MMRCA tender was for additional 100 odd mirage -2000s this clearly shows why the iaf is treating this bird like a golden goose and again youre using the car logic .... let me say one more thing in this multi polar world large arms deals are nothing more than political decisions >> we have already treated the israelis well with plethora of arms deals its time to suck up the french

 

[sancho]

Case is simple really, our babu's has put all the eggs in same basket. Su30 MKI are also equipped with French radars and EW suite. IAF is really scared by the mere fact of Pakistan getting their hands on same tech. Rather its a win for France as they armtwisted their way through in negotiating price.

Ditching Mirage and equipping Gripen would have been a wiser choice considering the fact that our LCA is going to have same GE engine. So no logistical rhetoric is believable.

This deal would have been fair if french agreed to overhaul engine and airframe. But then again, it cannot be compared to Swedish Gripen NG.

First of all, MKI does not have a French radar, or EW suit, they are Russian and Israeli, France provided navigation systems as far as I know.

Gripen for Mirage 2000 upgrade would definitely not be the wiser choice, because that would be Gripen C/D versions, which have a thrust of only 80kN, what is even less than LCA MK1 offer and IAF consider that as underpowered. They are also a totally new fighter for IAF, which means the pilots have to train more to induct it, we need other weapons, radars and engine that we don't have in the fleet yet, which means increased logistical costs.
All these trouble just for not upgrading 2 squads of Mirage 2000?

Don't get me wrong, the upgrade is expensive, which I often said before, but the alternatives would have been costlier, or very complitcated and keep in mind that we will induct 3-4 new fighters in this decade anyway (MKI, LCA, MMRCA and Pak Fa/FGFA), so Gripen would be the wrong choice.
Btw, the airframe will be overhauled and the engine are the latest versions if I'm not wrong.

it seems a lot of these deals r directly associated with the MMRCA deal

russia is our biggest defense supplier and we have ordered them an additional order for new s-30 mki's--seems mig 35 is out of the race

france-3rd biggest supplier--they got mirage upgrade offer---i think rafael is also out of race+forget J-17,we can give u enough

seems eurofighter is on the way,a consortium that include german,italian and british companies,so r these companies also a no go for pakistan

Again these kind of conclusions!
Mate, by that logic, the EF must be out soon too, because we upgrade our British Jaguars possibly with a new British engine, as well as weapons. We buy a lot of US arms and techs these days, so the F16 and the F18SH are out to right?
As you can see, that has nothing to do with MMRCA, not even the engine procurement of LCA will be directly linked to MMRCA. These upgrades for Mig 29, Su 30, Mirage 2000 and Jaguars are necessary to extend their life and improve their capabilities. We don't do it to make those countries happy, but to make our fighters deadly!

 

[Justin Joseph]

Upgrading Mirages better option than buying new aircraft: PV Naik

Gandhinagar: Air Chief Marshal PV Naik today said that upgrading old Mirage fighter aircraft is a better option than buying new fighter planes.

When asked why Air Force was spending millions of dollars in upgrading old Mirages as the money could well be used in buyingnew Sukhois, Naik said, "When you buy an (fighter) aircraft itis not only the aircraft that you buy, you spend money in training people, erecting infrastructure, logistics, spares supply and life time support."

"The residual life of the 50 odd Mirages that are left is another 20 years. If I throw them away I have wasted 20 years of that residual life. But upgrading them, with the infrastructure already available, seems a better option, considering the life time cost," he added.

Talking about the Air Force's long-term perspective planning, Naik said, "Wherever there is residual useful life left, in any system not only aircraft, we try and upgrade. So that at least part of that residual life is used. But wherever there is no residual life left we try and replace."

He further said that when you upgrade an aircraft the cost is higher than 50% of the original cost.

When asked about the role of Air Force in coastal security, the Air Chief Marshall said the Indian Navy has acquired crucial assets for the same purpose.

"For coastal security, fighter aircraft are not required. For that you require slow moving aircraft which can have cameras and other sensors," Naik said.

"As far as Air Force is concerned there is one great asset we can use for coastal security and that is the UAVs (Unmanned Ariel Vehicles). They are already being used in areas like Haraminala," he added.

"With more UAVs we can use them more often. They can remain airborne for longtime. They do not have to come back and give the information. Whatever they see, hear or locate is transmitted simultaneously . Hence these become important assets in coastal areas," Naik added.

He said IAF they had used UAVs in the naxal affected areas 3-4 years ago. "We have used these in Raipur and Jagdalpur. But the problem in these areas is that they are covered by jungles. So, as far as visual clues are concerned, we can't get there as there is a thick forest cover."

"However one can get some clues using Infra Red lights or detect some metals. Also, naxals are very fleeting targets, so locating them under the jungle cover is very difficult. But in open areas we can definitely use UAVs more," he added.

Talking about situation at Indo-China border, Naik said, "There are border problems. Such problems cannot be solved so fast. How to proceed is the matter for the government to decide. We are just the military and have to ensure that the border is secure."

Upgrading Mirages better option than buying new aircraft: PV Naik - dnaindia.com

 

[gowthamraj]

very good. i think those who critisize this upgrade now understand the reason

 

[angeldemon_007]

I think I still oppose the deal. I have said this before in some other forum. Why can't India ask for an exchange offer. UAE is thinking about replacing its mirage with Rafale. Dassault will help them sell mirage. Thus they will get a latest fighter in a very reasonable cost.
As per those infra-structure, maintenance, repair, training etc. points, Rafale and mirage are based on the same platform so these problems won't be there. It is because of this reason Dassault might win MMRCA.

 

[sancho]

I think I still oppose the deal. I have said this before in some other forum. Why can't India ask for an exchange offer. UAE is thinking about replacing its mirage with Rafale. Dassault will help them sell mirage. Thus they will get a latest fighter in a very reasonable cost.
As per those infra-structure, maintenance, repair, training etc. points, Rafale and mirage are based on the same platform so these problems won't be there. It is because of this reason Dassault might win MMRCA.

Dassault and France for sure offered them to IAF, because it is in their interest to find a buyer for them and clear the Rafale sale to UAE. The question is only at what price? Those M2K-9 are the most developed versions and are pretty new, which means UAE will ask for a good ammount of money, just like Qatar did when we asked for their M2K-5. I believe they were more costly than the $40 millions each and that's why we gor for the upgrade.

 

[luckyyy]

When asked why Air Force was spending millions of dollars in upgrading old Mirages as the money could well be used in buyingnew Sukhois, Naik said, "When you buy an (fighter) aircraft itis not only the aircraft that you buy, you spend money in training people, erecting infrastructure, logistics, spares supply and life time support."

on this argument , why MIG-35 won't be given the mmrca deal mr.naik..?

also inplace of upgrade if IAF buys a new su-30mki , don't the trained people, erecting infrastructure, logistics, spares supply and life time support is already there for su-30mki..?