New Pictures of Sahand Frigate

[VEVAK]

If you actually manage to hit the darn thing.

I don't think anybody needs to tell you why 8x 23 mm autocannons mounted on a modified chassis with little to no additional strengthening is bad for precision.

The AK-630 is, as @eagle2007 already said, a far better system in every measurable way. And Iran should be able to mount it on its next vessels.

Speaking of the AK-630 - is it possible Iran just acquired a few dozen from Russia, without bothering to produce them? It is, after, employed in small numbers. And it isn't too difficult to maintain. Even better, it's technically an Air Defence System, so it isn't covered by sanctions, just as the S-300 wasn't.

I'd prefer to see Iranian equipment & they don't need precision!!!!! If I'm on a ship the size of the Sina class and it's moving up and down I'd take the 8 barrels over the precision of one & once you place that 1st one onboard then the Navy will work on domestic improvements

Which is the 76 mm OTO Melara. It would be better to replace the 40 mm gun at the back, but unfortunately I don't think the Navy will bother putting a CIWS on such small vessels.


Nobody was saying one is better than the other, he only brought that forward in order to compare with what the Sahand may have, so we would better gauge its capabilities.

Read his previous post brother!!!!!! He is claiming the 77 Meter N.Korean corvette is superior to Iran's Mowj Class!

 

[AmirPatriot]

8 barrels over the precision of one

I'd turn down the 8 barrels of imprecision, I'd rather take the 6 barrels of superior precision, range, power and fire rate, while being significantly smaller.

He is claiming the 77 Meter N.Korean corvette is superior to Iran's Mowj Class!

The only assertion of such I saw is the guns, and to be frank the assertion of a CIWS being better than a 76 mm GP gun is reasonable, though debatable. Regardless, it is not something to argue about.

The rest was talking about tradeoffs, like range for numbers and detection methods.

 

[Penguin]

A bomber at high altitude within 20km of N.Korean ship is way out of range for their SAM but it is not out of range of Iran's SAM's on the Mowj Class! & Sahand is set to have even a greater range!!!!!!!
So again cry all you want that is a fact of life!!!!!!!! Bombers can fly circles around that ship but not so with Iran!

Your ship will -maybe- have 1 chance to fire a missile at that bomber. It has just 2 anti air missiles.

Iran's ship clearly have superior Air & Sea radar! You can't hit what you can't see! Iran can build anti-ship cruise missiles with ranges over 1000km but what would be the point if you can't track & target at that range!

Interesting how you feel offended by a DPRK ship.

76mm cannon vs 40mm cannon! And Iran doesn't need to reinvent the wheel! Wheel goes round & and 76 mm is both more powerful and has a greater range than a 40mm & 20mm
Iran's 76mm cannon can hit Airborne targets at a greater distance than their Manpads

Nobody in their right mind would compare 76mm versus 40mm, since both are on the same ship.
As indicated, the DPRK vessel has space an weight reserved for a medium gun. That could be a Russian AK-176 or its chinese equivalent, which is very comparable to the 76m Oto. So the proper comparison then is single barrel, manned 20mm and 40mm cannon versus 14.5mm and 30mm remote control gatling guns.

Bigger haul = longer range doesn't make a ship superior the other aspects do!

You were the one on about range, not me.

Reduced RCS is by no means stealth & every advanced radar that needs to will have it's signature saved

Never said anything to that extent.

You can bang your head on the wall as much as you like Iran's Mowj call is superior in almost every aspect!

Vevak, do yourself a favor and stop behaving like an idiot.

Read his previous post brother!!!!!! He is claiming the 77 Meter N.Korean corvette is superior to Iran's Mowj Class!

I''ve made no such claim and dare you to quote me. What are you? 14?

 

[Draco.IMF]

I wish Iran will work in future on vessels with own/domestic design
currently these vessels are all copies from english vessels from 60s/70s

 

[eagle2007]

Vevak,

You're comparing apples and oranges. We are talking about using the Mesbah-1 as a de facto (but questionable) CIWS so comparing the amount of deck space it would take up compared to the Fajr-27 is pointless.

Now IF the Mesbah-1 was to be fitted to say, a Sina-class missile boat, the only logical place would be to replace the existing single-barrel 40mm cannon fitted on the aft end of the deck. The Mesbah-1 would definitely be an improvement over that but if the AK-630 is available, there's no need to pursue using the Mesbah-1 for such a role at all.

Again, I didn't say the Mesbah-1 couldn't function as a CIWS on naval vessels, just that it is a poor design based on its limited rate of fire and bulky design. If Iran has access to the AK-630, why bother with such a bulky design?

AmirPatriot,

Initially, I assumed the AK-630 came from North Korea since they have developed a CIWS very similar to the AK-630 several years ago. However, upon closer examination of the few images we have, what Iran showed IS a AK-630, whereas the NK design is not actually a clone of the -630 but a domestically design equivalent based on the older AK-230.

So if it wasn't the North Koreans, that leaves Russia or China as possible sources (Russia likely has a few dozen of these fellas lying around from decommissioned vessels and China manufactures an unlicensed copy). Several navies have vessels equipped with AK-630s but off the top of my head I can't think of any that have retired any vessels recently which would provide one for sale (licit or illicit).

 

[eagle2007]

ALCON,

Just got a lead on the possible source of the AK-630 in Iran.

Just as Iraqi aircraft attempt to flee to Iran during the 1991 Gulf War, there was also attempts by the Iraqi Navy to do the same. For the most part, they were annihilated but a few vessels managed to make it through.

We know at least one Polnocny-class landing craft made it, since Iran has made it a target during several naval exercises. Turns out a single Iraqi patrol vessel also escaped to Iran.

The patrol vessel in question, was a Type 02065 or Bogomol-class. Two such vessels were sold to Iraqi before 1991 and one of them escaped to Iran and guess what was included in it's kit? You guessed it, an AK-630M.

Also included was a AK-176M 76.2mm cannon (late-Soviet/Russian equivalent to the OTO 76mm cannon).

The question then becomes, why not show off this captured kit til now? Perhaps it was never shown off because Iran was working to reverse-engineer it? Doesn't seem like a huge leap given their recent work in several domestic rotary gun designs. This would also make sense of several years of official statements about Iran working on a naval CIWS compared to the American Phalanx. Just my two cents though.

Here is a drawing of the Type 02065 class patrol vessel in question. Haven't been able to find an actual picture yet...

 

[AmirPatriot]

As usual @eagle2007 your posts are valuable and insightful. I never knew that about the Iraqi patrol boat, and now you mentioned it I think it's more likely we copied that instead of bought it. Reverse engineering that would do Iran well, and Iran already probably makes the Ammo for its Su-25 and MiG-29 fleet. And as you already said Iran has some experience in making gatlings.

Iran managed to bring the Mirage F1s into service, surely they can do the copy the AK-630M.

 

[Penguin]

ALCON,

Just got a lead on the possible source of the AK-630 in Iran.

Just as Iraqi aircraft attempt to flee to Iran during the 1991 Gulf War, there was also attempts by the Iraqi Navy to do the same. For the most part, they were annihilated but a few vessels managed to make it through.

We know at least one Polnocny-class landing craft made it, since Iran has made it a target during several naval exercises. Turns out a single Iraqi patrol vessel also escaped to Iran.

The patrol vessel in question, was a Type 02065 or Bogomol-class. Two such vessels were sold to Iraqi before 1991 and one of them escaped to Iran and guess what was included in it's kit? You guessed it, an AK-630M.

Also included was a AK-176M 76.2mm cannon (late-Soviet/Russian equivalent to the OTO 76mm cannon).

The question then becomes, why not show off this captured kit til now? Perhaps it was never shown off because Iran was working to reverse-engineer it? Doesn't seem like a huge leap given their recent work in several domestic rotary gun designs. This would also make sense of several years of official statements about Iran working on a naval CIWS compared to the American Phalanx. Just my two cents though.

Here is a drawing of the Type 02065 class patrol vessel in question. Haven't been able to find an actual picture yet...

"An Iraqi Osa patrol boat" (possibly actually your Bogomol class), an Osa II missile boat and a Polnocny amphibious ship escaped to Iranian waters after the 'Battle of Bubiyan'
http://es.rice.edu/projects/Poli378/Gulf/gwtxt_ch7.html#Battle of Bubiyan

Bogomol class (AK-630 and AK176)

.
http://russianships.info/eng/borderguard/project_02065.htm

Polocny class (has AK230, not AK630)

http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_770.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_771.htm
http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_773.htm

Osa II class (has AK230, not AK630)

http://russianships.info/eng/warfareboats/project_205.htm

 

[VEVAK]

Vevak,

You're comparing apples and oranges. We are talking about using the Mesbah-1 as a de facto (but questionable) CIWS so comparing the amount of deck space it would take up compared to the Fajr-27 is pointless.

Now IF the Mesbah-1 was to be fitted to say, a Sina-class missile boat, the only logical place would be to replace the existing single-barrel 40mm cannon fitted on the aft end of the deck. The Mesbah-1 would definitely be an improvement over that but if the AK-630 is available, there's no need to pursue using the Mesbah-1 for such a role at all.

Again, I didn't say the Mesbah-1 couldn't function as a CIWS on naval vessels, just that it is a poor design based on its limited rate of fire and bulky design. If Iran has access to the AK-630, why bother with such a bulky design?

AmirPatriot,

Initially, I assumed the AK-630 came from North Korea since they have developed a CIWS very similar to the AK-630 several years ago. However, upon closer examination of the few images we have, what Iran showed IS a AK-630, whereas the NK design is not actually a clone of the -630 but a domestically design equivalent based on the older AK-230.

So if it wasn't the North Koreans, that leaves Russia or China as possible sources (Russia likely has a few dozen of these fellas lying around from decommissioned vessels and China manufactures an unlicensed copy). Several navies have vessels equipped with AK-630s but off the top of my head I can't think of any that have retired any vessels recently which would provide one for sale (licit or illicit).

I'd prefer to see the Mesbah-1 in place of the Fajr-27 upfront on every other Sina Class It's apples & Oranges YES but I believe it to be superior to both the Fajr-27 & AK-630 in only 1 thing & that is to counter incoming low flying anti ship cruise missile at close ranges while the ship is on the move.
Fajr-27 can hit targets at sea & on the shore at a range of 16800 meters 16.8km

The point is to not have every Sina Class with exactly the same capabilities with the same countermeasures & weapons
In terms of weight it's by far lighter than the Fajr-27 you can move it further up & extend the deck further up
To allow the Sina Class to carry LACM on top of the Anti-ship Missiles it already has

Also, Iran has 3-4 Sina Class halls that have been completed years ago and are just sitting around for everyone else to catchup so if you simplify some of them with less time consuming weapons, propulsion & equipment then you can produce them at a much faster rate! And Fajr-27 is one of those time consuming weapons that's requested by almost every new warship of the Navy!

So again I stick with original statement I would like to see every other Sina Class equipped with Mesbah-1 in place of the 76mm cannon & instead of a cannon for an offensive weapons I would like to see them equipped with a few modified Ya Ali cruise Missiles making it a sea born threat against land targets up to almost 700km away....

 

[ilia]

Why mesbah-1 ?
While we have this

 

[sputnik]

All ships are made by welding pieces of steel plate together. Welding causes huge local thermal gradient resulting in residual stress inside the plates and thus cause them to slightly deform. Good paint job would help but at the end of the day, all of the ships will look like that if you look at them from a certain angle:

This is Shivalik Class (india) destroyer. You can count the number of plates that are welded together on the super structure:

IVER HUITFELDT-CLASS [DENMARK] Same, look at the superstructure

ADMIRAL GORSHKOV CLASS [RUSSIA] You can see the joint of plates on the lower hull.

Correction..shivalik class is not destroyer. It is Multi role Frigate...INS DELHI IS destroyer.
Thanks.

Most navies don't bother.

Arleigh Burke class with 8x Harpoons launched "standard":

Russian Sovremennyy 8x forward firing Sunburns:

Same case with the Japanese, French, British etc. navies.

Though the Indian Navy does have 16x VLS BrahMos:

That seems to be a very powerful vessel, though as a trade-off it's anti-air capacity is less prolific a more anti-air focused ship like the Arleigh Burke.

This is INS KOCHI.Can u pin point on what grounds Indian naval ship is having less anti air focus.as it is having BARACK and Shtil Sam system.
Thanks.

 

[VEVAK]

I wish Iran will work in future on vessels with own/domestic design
currently these vessels are all copies from english vessels from 60s/70s

1st reverse engineer 2nd upgrade & then design your own that's what Iran has done with almost every weapon platform!

I know for an absolute fact that Iran's Navy is working on a 3 haul design of it's own it's nothing like the Independence class & it's much smaller but they already have computer aided designs & they have all the facilities necessary to test mocked down versions of those designs
Also, it's only the Haul that's 60's/70's designs...

 

[VEVAK]

Your ship will -maybe- have 1 chance to fire a missile at that bomber. It has just 2 anti air missiles.


Interesting how you feel offended by a DPRK ship.
?

Only offended by nonsense!!!!!!!! I have no trouble admitting that DPRK Submarines are far more capable than Iranian Subs in range, depth & firepower basically in everything that makes a sub a sub!!!!!!!!!!!! Because that is a FACT!
And I have great admiration for them in that aspect!

And as much as that is a FACT Iran's Mowj class is also superior to their corvette in almost every aspect!

It can detect, track and engage areal threats at a great range! FACT
It can detect, track & engage sea threats at a greater range!
It's cannon can hit sea & ground targets as far as 16km! again, superior!
It's haul is 60ft longer & that means it can carry more fuel! So it has a greater range!

And that doesn't mean I don't respect N.Korean tech! As I said, they are ahead of Iran when it come so Subs & they are also ahead of Iran when it comes to Liquid Fueled Ballistic Missiles!
But in terms of Radars, SAM's, Cruise Missiles, Solid Fueled Ballistic Missiles, Optical Sensors, UAV's,..... Iran is ahead of our friends in DPRK

Why mesbah-1 ?
While we have this

YES! Because Mesbah-1 on a moving ship can put up a wall to counter incoming anti-ship missiles!

 

[sahureka2]

Interesting how you feel offended by a DPRK ship.


Nobody in their right mind would compare 76mm versus 40mm, since both are on the same ship.
As indicated, the DPRK vessel has space an weight reserved for a medium gun. That could be a Russian AK-176 or its chinese equivalent, which is very comparable to the 76m Oto. So the proper comparison then is single barrel, manned 20mm and 40mm cannon versus 14.5mm and 30mm remote control gatling guns.

DPRK It does not serve the AK-176, as it already uses a copy of the Oto Melara 76/62

 

[Draco.IMF]

DPRK subs more advanced than Iranians? sure?
you can bet DPRK has help from China...