New Pictures of Sahand Frigate

[Penguin]

Only offended by nonsense!!!!!!!! I have no trouble admitting that DPRK Submarines are far more capable than Iranian Subs in range, depth & firepower basically in everything that makes a sub a sub!!!!!!!!!!!! Because that is a FACT!
And I have great admiration for them in that aspect!

And as much as that is a FACT Iran's Mowj class is also superior to their corvette in almost every aspect!

It can detect, track and engage areal threats at a great range! FACT
It can detect, track & engage sea threats at a greater range!
It's cannon can hit sea & ground targets as far as 16km! again, superior!
It's haul is 60ft longer & that means it can carry more fuel! So it has a greater range!

And that doesn't mean I don't respect N.Korean tech! As I said, they are ahead of Iran when it come so Subs & they are also ahead of Iran when it comes to Liquid Fueled Ballistic Missiles!
But in terms of Radars, SAM's, Cruise Missiles, Solid Fueled Ballistic Missiles, Optical Sensors, UAV's,..... Iran is ahead of our friends in DPRK

Keep it up. All you do is mess up the thread. Because you HAVE to chest pound. Good luck with that buddy.

DPRK It does not serve the AK-176, as it already uses a copy of the Oto Melara 76/62

Any medium gun would do in this case. But an Oto 76/62 copy will do nicely. Oh, how inferior to Iran's 76mm ;-)

 

[AmirPatriot]

I believe it to be superior to both the Fajr-27 & AK-630

Fajr-27 is a completely different type of gun.

AK-630 is superior to Mesbah-1 in every measurable way. And it can be mounted on the back to replace the 40 mm gun.

shivalik class is not destroyer. It is Multi role Frigate...INS DELHI IS destroyer.
Thanks.

How does that work, when the Shivalk has a a full load of 6,800 tons, and the Delhi a full load of 6,200 tons?

This is INS KOCHI.Can u pin point on what grounds Indian naval ship is having less anti air focus.as it is having BARACK and Shtil Sam system.

Well, it prefers to have a high capacity anti-ship focus with those BrahMos missiles. This leaves less deck space, so it has less anti-air VLS cells than either a British Type-45 or an American Arleigh Burke, despite being bigger than both of those. The missiles also have shorter range.

 

[sahureka2]

[Quote = "Pinguino, posta: 9017325, membro: 13259"]Ogni Pistola Medio avrebbe Fatto in this Caso. Ma Una copia Oto 76/62 fara bene. Oh, andiamo inferiore a 76 millimetri dell'Iran; -) [/ citazione]
The DPRK compact 76/62, con collaborazioni passate, potrebbe anche essere il Fajr-27

 

[Penguin]

[Quote = "Pinguino, posta: 9017325, membro: 13259"]Ogni Pistola Medio avrebbe Fatto in this Caso. Ma Una copia Oto 76/62 fara bene. Oh, andiamo inferiore a 76 millimetri dell'Iran; -) [/ citazione]
The DPRK compact 76/62, con collaborazioni passate, potrebbe anche essere il Fajr-27

Concordare. Ci sono un certo numero di paesi con le licenze per la produzione di questa pistola. Questo include ad esempio India, Israele, Sud Africa. Ma l'Iran in questo caso può effettivamente essere una fonte probabile.

How does that work, when the Shivalk has a a full load of 6,800 tons, and the Delhi a full load of 6,200 tons?

Delhi class is a 1990s design, Shivalik is post-2010. There has been 'ship type inflation'. See also the Euro-Frigates: all are now 5000-7000 tons. Whereas the generation before was just 3000-4000 tons.

 

[VEVAK]

Fajr-27 is a completely different type of gun.

AK-630 is superior to Mesbah-1 in every measurable way. And it can be mounted on the back to replace the 40 mm gun.


How does that work, when the Shivalk has a a full load of 6,800 tons, and the Delhi a full load of 6,200 tons?


Well, it prefers to have a high capacity anti-ship focus with those BrahMos missiles. This leaves less deck space, so it has less anti-air VLS cells than either a British Type-45 or an American Arleigh Burke, despite being bigger than both of those. The missiles also have shorter range.

Fajr-27 is a cannon that can hit targets as far as 16km away
AK-630 shoots in a straight line witch is good on a larger more stable platform but if it was so good the Russian wouldn't of needed to build the M-2 version & yes I would take the M-2 over the Mesbah-1 but NOT the one Iran has!

I would take the Mesbah-1 for the Sina Class to put of a wall against incoming antiship missiles over the AK-630's or the Fajr-27!!!!!!! And again NOT ON ALL OF THEM!

Fajr-27 is extremely heavy compared to the Mesbah-1 that means you can move up the deck add more fuel and range & fire power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also think it's a mistake to have all Sina Class ships with almost the same capabilities & countermeasures!
Also in terms of price it is far more expensive!

We have 3-4 Sina Class hauls just sitting around & Iran can build the hauls really quickly if we just simplify some of them and bring down some of the costs on half of them to increase production!

If you get rid of the Fajr-27 you can make the command deck thinner & longer which will allow you to put your anti-ship missiles on the sides of the deck pointing forward 2 on each side placed on top of each other and this will allow you to put additional modified YaAli LACM or SAM in the back

A Sniper regardless of how accurate it is can't take out an incoming anti ship cruise missile! If I wanna hit a moving target while on a moving ship I don't need precision I need a wall! and Mesbah-1 can put up that wall and it doesn't need pin point accuracy!

And you know I love "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" pass asabani nasho!

 

[Penguin]

This is INS KOCHI.Can u pin point on what grounds Indian naval ship is having less anti air focus.as it is having BARACK and Shtil Sam system.
Thanks.

Ths is not INS Kochi (second P15A). It is INS Tarkash (F50), which is a batch 2 Talwar (project 11356). It has 24 × Shtil-1 medium range missiles. No Barak-8 or Barak-1. Backed by 100mm A-190 gun and 2x Ak630. Batch 1 Talwars carrier 2 Kashtan CIWS, which each have 2x 30mm gatling + at least 8 (32 if reload system fitted) 9M311-1 two-stage solid-propellant SAM.

There are no IN ships combining Barak-8 and Shtil, there are ships combining Barak-1 and Shtil (2 project 65 Rajput, P15 Delhi, P17 Shivalik)

Fajr-27 is a cannon that can hit targets as far as 16km away
AK-630 shoots in a straight line witch is good on a larger more stable platform but if it was so good the Russian wouldn't of needed to build the M-2 version & yes I would take the M-2 over the Mesbah-1 but NOT the one Iran has!
View attachment 361194

n 1983, a decision was made to update the design and modify the AK-630 system to include a second gun mounted above the first, which provides 10,000 rpm in total. The AK-630M1-2 "Roy" was roughly the same size and weight allowing installation in existing AK-630 mounts. Though the system proved to be successful, the AK-630M1-2 Roy was not accepted for production due to the maturity of a combined missile and gun system, then designated the 3M87 Kortik, but later called Kashtan. The single example of AK-630M1-2 Roy remains installed on the Project 206.6 class missile boat # P-44.
In July 2007 at IMDS-2007, a modernized version of the AK-630M1-2 was showcased by OAO AK Tulamashzavod under the new name "Duet". Visually "Duet" differs from "Roy" in having a new mount with a stealthy low RCS design compared with the more traditional rounded AK-630 mounts.
In 2012 it was announced that the new Ivan Gren-class landing ship would be armed with the modified AK-630M-2 system

 

[VEVAK]

Ths is not INS Kochi (second P15A). It is INS Tarkash (F50), which is a batch 2 Talwar (project 11356). It has 24 × Shtil-1 medium range missiles. No Barak-8 or Barak-1. Backed by 100mm A-190 gun and 2x Ak630. Batch 1 Talwars carrier 2 Kashtan CIWS, which each have 2x 30mm gatling + at least 8 (32 if reload system fitted) 9M311-1 two-stage solid-propellant SAM.

There are no IN ships combining Barak-8 and Shtil, there are ships combining Barak-1 and Shtil (2 project 65 Rajput, P15 Delhi, P17 Shivalik)


n 1983, a decision was made to update the design and modify the AK-630 system to include a second gun mounted above the first, which provides 10,000 rpm in total. The AK-630M1-2 "Roy" was roughly the same size and weight allowing installation in existing AK-630 mounts. Though the system proved to be successful, the AK-630M1-2 Roy was not accepted for production due to the maturity of a combined missile and gun system, then designated the 3M87 Kortik, but later called Kashtan. The single example of AK-630M1-2 Roy remains installed on the Project 206.6 class missile boat # P-44.
In July 2007 at IMDS-2007, a modernized version of the AK-630M1-2 was showcased by OAO AK Tulamashzavod under the new name "Duet". Visually "Duet" differs from "Roy" in having a new mount with a stealthy low RCS design compared with the more traditional rounded AK-630 mounts.
In 2012 it was announced that the new Ivan Gren-class landing ship would be armed with the modified AK-630M-2 system

This is what I wanna see on Iran's Sina class with SAM or LACM in the back

Mesbah-1 or the AK630 M-2 is more suitable for this size vessel

AK-630 M2

Mesbah-1

Both can put up a wall against low altitude incoming Ant ship cruise missiles!!!!!!

 

[AmirPatriot]

View attachment 361201

This is what I wanna see on Iran's Sina class with SAM or LACM in the back

Mesbah-1 or the AK630 M-2 is more suitable for this size vessel

AK-630 M2

View attachment 361202

Mesbah-1
View attachment 361203
View attachment 361204

Both can put up a wall against low altitude incoming Ant ship cruise missiles!!!!!!

Watch this video and you can be assured it has no lack of spread.

 

[VEVAK]

Watch this video and you can be assured it has no lack of spread.

Yes for larger more stable vessels and yes if you have 2 or more working in unison it can put up a wall but you can't do that on the Sina class!

The point is to remove the heavy, massive & expensive Fajr-27 on only SOME to bring down costs so you can increase your fleet at a faster pace!
Also, Fajr-27 is a massive cannon do you know how much more range you can give the Sina class by replacing it with something lighter like the Mesbah-1
Again, I'm not saying Fajr-27 needs to go on all Sina Class ships but not all Sina Class ships should be the same they should be unpredictable to the radars that pick them up
This is massive!

This is the AShM configuration I'd like to see on some of our Sina Class ships & u can't do that as long as you have the Fajr-27 upfront
and in the back I would like to see either SAM, Torpedo's or LACM (500-700km)

 

[Hack-Hook]

Yes for larger more stable vessels and yes if you have 2 or more working in unison it can put up a wall but you can't do that on the Sina class!

The point is to remove the heavy, massive & expensive Fajr-27 on only SOME to bring down costs so you can increase your fleet at a faster pace!
Also, Fajr-27 is a massive cannon do you know how much more range you can give the Sina class by replacing it with something lighter like the Mesbah-1
Again, I'm not saying Fajr-27 needs to go on all Sina Class ships but not all Sina Class ships should be the same they should be unpredictable to the radars that pick them up
This is massive!
View attachment 361434


View attachment 361435

This is the AShM configuration I'd like to see on some of our Sina Class ships & u can't do that as long as you have the Fajr-27 upfront
and in the back I would like to see either SAM, Torpedo's or LACM (500-700km)

well by removing that fajr-27 you severely reduce the ship capability , It'll have no ground attack capabilities and can not attack attack any boat that is more than 1-2kmaway when ran out of its 2-4 anti ship missile , it will be useless in sieges and it cant attack port facilities and radar installment in shores.

 

[Penguin]

Mesbah 1 anti aircraft artillery system uses 4 Iranian built Russian ZU-23-2 (i.e. 4x2 barrels) installed on a rotatable mount (chassis & electric system of a Oerlikon twin 35mm gun). Each autocannon has its own feed magazine and ammo box (i.e. 8 ammo boxes on the mount).The system uses Radar and IR/Optical sensors (seperate trailer mount) to find its target automatically.

Weight (indicative):

• A complete ZU-23-2 mount weighs 950kg (excl. ammunition). 4x 950 = 3,800 kg.
  
• A Bofors 40L70 single gun mount weighs 5,000kg.
  A complete Oerlikon twin 35mm gun mount with carriage, ammunition and standard accessories weighs 6,700 kg (238-280 rounds at 1.565 kg per round = 372 - 438 kg).
  
• The seperate FCU will easily weigh another 1-2 tons.
• Mesbah-1 system (incl FC) will easily weigh 4.5-5.5 tons.

Dimensions of Oerlikon 35mm mount (consider this max. dimensions for Mesbah 1)

• Length, 7.8 m travelling; 8.83 m firing
  Width, 2.26 m travelling; 4.49 m firing
  Height, 2.6 m travelling; 1.72 m firing

Rate of fire: 4000 rpm (higher rate probably possible, but limited to conserve ammo usage)

Maximum firing range 4 km
Effective firing range 2.5 km

Munition: 23×152mm Belted
Round Length 236 mm
Mass Total 455 g
Cartridge Case Length 152 mm
Projectile Diameter 23 mm
Rim Diameter 33 mm
Projectile Mass 185 g
Muzzle velocity 970 m/s

Ammo types and explosive weights
HE Impact 19.6 g RDX/Alum
HE-T Impact 16.3 g RDX/Alum + 3.5 s tracer
HEI Impact 19.6 g RDX/Alum
HEI-T Impact 16.3 g RDX/Alum + 3.5 s tracer
API Base delay 5 g TNT/Alum + incendiary
API-T Base delay 5 g TNT/Alum + incend + red tracer
TP ballistic match with HE for training and testing
TP- T like TP except that round is fitted with tracer

http://www.ordtech-industries.com/2products/ZU-23/23x152NG.html

4000 x 0.0163kg = 65.2kg explosive on target per minute
4000 x 0.0196kg = 78.4kg explosive on target per minute

How about the "heavy, massive & expensive" Fajr-27?

Oto Melara 76/62 Compact naval gun mount (including magazine and munitions hoist)

• without ammunition: 7,439 kg ( pf which Gun Weight [tube and liner] is 765 kg)
  
• with ammunition and off-mount components: 8,520 kg

Ammunition stowage per gun: 80 ready rounds on mount

Rate Of Fire Compact: 80 - 85 rounds per minute in automatic mode (100 with retrofit kit).

Elevation: -15 / +85 degrees, at 35 degrees per second
Train: unlimited (uses a slip ring), at 60 degrees per second

Max. Possible range (@ 45 degrees):

• 5 km w. DART (antimissile round w. Strales gun system only)
  
• 16.0 km w. 6.5 kg SAPOM w. Super Rapid gun only
  
• 18.4 km w. 6.296 kg HE-MOM and HE-PF-OM w. Compact gun
  
• 20.0 km w. 6.6 kg SAPOMER w. Super Rapid gun only
  
• 40.0 km w. Volcano only

Max. Effective Range: 8.0 km
Max. Effective Altitude (AAA @ 85 degrees): 4.0km

Cartridge: 76.2 mm x 635.5 mm
Weight of Complete Round All except Vulcano: 12.34 kg
Projectile Types and Weights Compact, all types: 6.296 kg
Propellant Charge HE: 3.56 kg
Bursting Charge HE: 0.75 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 914 - 925 mps

85 x 0.75 kg = 63.75 kg on target per minute (excluding weight of tungsten cubes used as penetrators in MOM-type rounds)

Conclusions:

• Not a whole lot of system weigh and volume difference.
• Similar amount of explosive on targert per minute
• Fajr-27 gives better range and versatility (ammo types)
  
• proximity fused 76mm munition has heavier, more destructive fragments upon bursting (greater effectiveness).

 

[AmirPatriot]

I don't understand this love affair with the Mesbah-1... and clearly you can't replace a 76 mm gun with a CIWS. They are just not the same role. Furthermore, you can't compare a 500 ton Tarantul class corvette with a 250 ton Sina Class missile boat.

Clearly Iranian Navy knew better and went for the AK-630. Which, by the way, weighs about the same or less than the Mesbah-1, when loaded up with ammo and the Fire Control System. And gatlings are actually more stable than 8 standard autocannons.

 

[Fafnir]

I don't understand this love affair with the Mesbah-1... and clearly you can't replace a 76 mm gun with a CIWS. They are just not the same role. Furthermore, you can't compare a 500 ton Tarantul class corvette with a 250 ton Sina Class missile boat.

Clearly Iranian Navy knew better and went for the AK-630. Which, by the way, weighs about the same or less than the Mesbah-1, when loaded up with ammo and the Fire Control System. And gatlings are actually more stable than 8 standard autocannons.

You`re right the gatling does seem to have the edge over the linear systems,altho I can think of one ciws with more barrels than the mesbah,the spanish meroka which has 12 barrels[!!] in one mount

 

[VEVAK]

Even 4 x AZU-23-2 would be heavier then the mesbah-1 AAA and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out!!!!!!!! VS Fajr-27 tha't +7 Tonnes!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means +7 AZU-23-2

So I really don't know what it is your trying to say!!!!!!!!!

My GOD man!!!!!!!!!!! Check yourself in!

I don't understand this love affair with the Mesbah-1... and clearly you can't replace a 76 mm gun with a CIWS. They are just not the same role. Furthermore, you can't compare a 500 ton Tarantul class corvette with a 250 ton Sina Class missile boat.

Clearly Iranian Navy knew better and went for the AK-630. Which, by the way, weighs about the same or less than the Mesbah-1, when loaded up with ammo and the Fire Control System. And gatlings are actually more stable than 8 standard autocannons.

That's the whole POINT! It's not spouse too the point is to get rid of it... & we just have to respectfully agree to disagree!!!!!! And I would take the Mesbah-1 over the AK-630 on the Sina class any day

Fajr-27 is not the only naval cannon Iran produces

40mm

 

[Penguin]

Even 4 x AZU-23-2 would be heavier then the mesbah-1 AAA and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out!!!!!!!! VS Fajr-27 tha't +7 Tonnes!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means +7 AZU-23-2

So I really don't know what it is your trying to say!!!!!!!!!

You don't read well. It has 4x the cannon mountings (not the trailer) but this whole contraption has been placed on the carriage of an Oerlikon twin 35mm AAA gun. That has a certain weight, irrespective of whether it mounts the twin 35 or the octuple 23. That carriage hasn't gotten any lighter. And you still have the 4 gun sets, with their associated ammo feed and boxes, and azimuth and elevation controls.

So, what I gave you is a range in which the real system weight likely falls, also including the fire control shelter. Because that is what you need in order to compare with the weight of the Oto 76mm mount. That is not difficult to comprehend, even for a half-wit.

If Mesbah 1 is SO INCREDIBLY LIGHT, how come it is mounted on a three axle truck and not a 4x4 Toyota Landcruiser?

By comparison, the German 20mm Flak 30/38 Vierling weighs 1,509 kg, and that has half the number of cannon and feed and munition of the Mesbah. So 2.5-3 tons just for the gunset is reasonable, then there is the extra weigh of using the big Oerlikon twin 35 carriage, and the FCU equipment. So, 3.5 tons is quite a reasonable minimum weight estimate.

Compare also to quad 20mm Polsten:
Mounting weight 3910lb (1777kg)
Platform weight 1320lb (600kg)
Carriage weight 1665lb (757kg)
Total weight of quad gun 6895lb (3134kg)

The Oto 76mm is not only very volume and weight efficient, it is also more allround, and very effective out to greater ranges than Mesbah 1. It would seriously reduce ship effectiveness to replace the 76mm with Mesbah-1.