Nemesis Sitting Together

[jamahir]

For war to end greed and hate need to end

Yes, those must be the goals.

can we do that? Maybe in my grandkids time

That's a bit cynical, right??

If at least some of us get ourselves into prominent positions and work towards a single world government or at least the same ideology in different nations, then we need not wait for a third generation.

I speak of Communism which has been given a unfair bad reputation.

Yes i do but in an ideal condition. I want both countries (Pakistan and India) to reduce its armed forces by 60% atleast. Both Pakistan and India should agree on a defence pact and then we can talk to China, who will (surely) promise no intervention if three of these countries agree on current border lines. But that isn't gonna happen. We both know that.

Brainstorming session : How about , Pakistan have an army of 200000 men and India 350000.

Agreed.

And this can happen under the umbrella of SCO ( Shanghai Cooperation Organization ) to which China is a party, other than Russia.

Russia can be the stabilizing force, when, as you say, the three countries talk about border lines.

 

[Dazzler]

My grandfather was used to say that smart people learn from others' experiences and mistakes...

I do hope that Asia learns the lesson from Europe to live peacefully without suffering like they did in world wars...

On this forum only, two European were fighting to prove the superiority of Euro Fighter Typhoon and Rafale fighter jets... and challenged that they will prove the mettle of these jets in war...

I raised the question... there is no war between their nations, so where are you going to test them in war... and reply was a wink...

Look at Europeans and Americans... they sell WEAPONS to both parties and make money...

While fools like us keep fighting with each other and our people keep suffering...

May the saner minds take charge of affairs on both sides.

 

[Nilgiri]

Do you agree with novice's post ( post# 10 )??

I agree.

@Zibago @django @BDforever @Bilal9 @Nilgiri

@Mentee @RealNapster

@padamchen

Agree wholeheartedly.

It is a human psyche problem that as leaders get distilled over to the top of power (through whatever process society has put into place for it)...the worst traits of human nature (this desire for undue conflict and hate of other) get concentrated in those echelons (either overtly or stealthily)....till sight is lost of the prevalence/relevance to the large body that they came from and supposed to be putting first. This seems to be problem whatever the political wing (left or right) or the entity (country etc) itself.

Unfortunately I do not see it changing, so we have to find ways to best mitigate and counter it with what we the laymen have.

Yes i do but in an ideal condition. I want both countries (Pakistan and India) to reduce its armed forces by 60% atleast. Both Pakistan and India should agree on a defence pact and then we can talk to China, who will (surely) promise no intervention if three of these countries agree on current border lines. But that isn't gonna happen. We both know that.

Brainstorming session : How about , Pakistan have an army of 200000 men and India 350000.

I say each year december 25th - 30th, have a single cricket test match (or some combination of friendly competition of some sort) between India and Pakistan. If India wins, whole of Kashmir is governed by India that following year (or whatever political term length decided). If Pakistan wins, same policy for Pakistan. If its a draw, Kashmir governs itself for said period. This way people have some way to judge how all 3 options are for them (removed as much can be of the tensions and violence etc)...without anyone feeling they have conceded and lost face.

Have this as the policy till some percentile (say 75th) in socioeconomic development w.r.t the world is reached for all 3 parties...and then negotiation for a permanent concrete solution can be commenced at that stage if its desired at that point.

This will improve sports performance (sorely needed for all), create economic avenues (imagine the ratings and audience + tourism for it each year hah) and bring some semblance of peace and trust building....and can have agreement that Kashmir has its own separate parliament for its domestic/economic affairs.

Whole area is demilitarised and also have demilitarised zones across the border zones of both countries (i.e only small arms equipped border guards etc).

Its just one idea with a bit of offbeat humour but we need some unconventional solutions I feel lol. Also gives opportunity for a new simpler and more effective constitution for India in my opinion is long overdue (I don't know about what you think of Pakistan's).

But of course it wont happen, too much blood and face has been invested by all concerned. I suppose we just have to see out the status quo , however long it takes till its much less relevant.

@waz @django @Zibago @Hell hound @PaklovesTurkiye

 

[Hell hound]

Agree wholeheartedly.

It is a human psyche problem that as leaders get distilled over to the top of power (through whatever process society has put into place for it)...the worst traits of human nature (this desire for undue conflict and hate of other) get concentrated in those echelons (either overtly or stealthily)....till sight is lost of the prevalence/relevance to the large body that they came from and supposed to be putting first. This seems to be problem whatever the political wing (left or right) or the entity (country etc) itself.

Unfortunately I do not see it changing, so we have to find ways to best mitigate and counter it with what we the laymen have.



I say each year december 25th - 30th, have a single cricket test match (or some combination of friendly competition of some sort) between India and Pakistan. If India wins, whole of Kashmir is governed by India that following year (or whatever political term length decided). If Pakistan wins, same policy for Pakistan. If its a draw, Kashmir governs itself for said period. This way people have some way to judge how all 3 options are for them (removed as much can be of the tensions and violence etc)...without anyone feeling they have conceded and lost face.

Have this as the policy till some percentile (say 75th) in socioeconomic development w.r.t the world is reached for all 3 parties...and then negotiation for a permanent concrete solution can be commenced at that stage if its desired at that point.

This will improve sports performance (sorely needed for all), create economic avenues (imagine the ratings and audience + tourism for it each year hah) and bring some semblance of peace and trust building....and can have agreement that Kashmir has its own separate parliament for its domestic/economic affairs.

Whole area is demilitarised and also have demilitarised zones across the border zones of both countries (i.e only small arms equipped border guards etc).

Its just one idea with a bit of offbeat humour but we need some unconventional solutions I feel lol. Also gives opportunity for a new simpler and more effective constitution for India in my opinion is long overdue (I don't know about what you think of Pakistan's).

But of course it wont happen, too much blood and face has been invested by all concerned. I suppose we just have to see out the status quo , however long it takes till its much less relevant.

@waz @django @Zibago @Hell hound @PaklovesTurkiye

of course will love any solution that can bring peace between us and is acceptable to all 3 parties involved.
add few more terms like pakistan won't lose access to china when india and kashmir is controlling the valley and same will be the case with water and dams for india we won't divert water or damage any dam in the area
plus all the revenue earned by kashmir will only be spent in kashmir not a single rupee will flow out to pakistan or india

enough with this war and hatred. we have already lost too many valuable lives and resources to it.

 

[Nilgiri]

of course will love any solution that can bring peace between us and is acceptable to all 3 parties involved.
add few more terms like pakistan won't lose access to china when india and kashmir is controlling the valley and same will be the case with water and dams for india we won't divert water or damage any dam in the area
plus all the revenue earned by kashmir will only be spent in kashmir not a single rupee will flow out to pakistan or india

Basically most of such issues will be left to Kashmir parliament/govt and so they will definitely take into account best way to ensure non-friendly actions are not taken against any neighbour, since they depend on all of them for peace, stability, foreign policy, joint customs/immigration system etc.

All this can be worked out by negotiating for sure....and also maybe have lobby groups (one from india, other from pak) with some sort of veto power when it comes to certain defined sensitive issues and have a tripartite dialogue arena for that stuff too.

In this day of technology, there is no reason not to make something visionary rather than be stuck in era of colonialist partition kind of thinking.

But it just seems to me everyone is satisfied with status quo, any thought of movement is seen as backing down basically....unless it comes at complete gain for one self and cost to the other etc.

 

[RealNapster]

I say each year december 25th - 30th, have a single cricket test match (or some combination of friendly competition of some sort) between India and Pakistan. If India wins, whole of Kashmir is governed by India that following year (or whatever political term length decided). If Pakistan wins, same policy for Pakistan. If its a draw, Kashmir governs itself for said period. This way people have some way to judge how all 3 options are for them (removed as much can be of the tensions and violence etc)...without anyone feeling they have conceded and lost face.

Have this as the policy till some percentile (say 75th) in socioeconomic development w.r.t the world is reached for all 3 parties...and then negotiation for a permanent concrete solution can be commenced at that stage if its desired at that point.

This will improve sports performance (sorely needed for all), create economic avenues (imagine the ratings and audience + tourism for it each year hah) and bring some semblance of peace and trust building....and can have agreement that Kashmir has its own separate parliament for its domestic/economic affairs.

Whole area is demilitarised and also have demilitarised zones across the border zones of both countries (i.e only small arms equipped border guards etc).

Its just one idea with a bit of offbeat humour but we need some unconventional solutions I feel lol. Also gives opportunity for a new simpler and more effective constitution for India in my opinion is long overdue (I don't know about what you think of Pakistan's).

But of course it wont happen, too much blood and face has been invested by all concerned. I suppose we just have to see out the status quo , however long it takes till its much less relevant.

@waz @django @Zibago @Hell hound @PaklovesT

.. you seems like very impress from one of NTR movie. In which 2 Parties do the same to have control of the village for next whole year. Can't remember its name.

 

[Nilgiri]

.. you seems like very impress from one of NTR movie. In which 2 Parties do the same to have control of the village for next whole year. Can't remember its name.

Hah you know NTR, I am assuming the one acting these days?

I don't know this movie...it sounds funny though.

 

[RealNapster]

Hah you know NTR, I am assuming the one acting these days?

I don't know this movie...it sounds funny though.

Yes i know him. And the movie name is "Dhammu".

 

[Nike]

Basically most of such issues will be left to Kashmir parliament/govt and so they will definitely take into account best way to ensure non-friendly actions are not taken against any neighbour, since they depend on all of them for peace, stability, foreign policy, joint customs/immigration system etc.

All this can be worked out by negotiating for sure....and also maybe have lobby groups (one from india, other from pak) with some sort of veto power when it comes to certain defined sensitive issues and have a tripartite dialogue arena for that stuff too.

In this day of technology, there is no reason not to make something visionary rather than be stuck in era of colonialist partition kind of thinking.

But it just seems to me everyone is satisfied with status quo, any thought of movement is seen as backing down basically....unless it comes at complete gain for one self and cost to the other etc.

Came on, War and conflict is the greatest means to propel humanity through a new level, after each great wars humanity as a whole reinvent themselves and getting themselves much better and efficient to fight the next wars.

Napoleonic War bring us toward Industrial Revolution in England and much of Western Europe, American Civil War bring us toward How Industry affect the flow of war and arts of logistic issues, WW I bring us toward the new stage of political and ideology campaign of human and early mechanized era of warfare, WW II bring us toward Nuclear age and how modern industry and society is taking shape, the end of feudalism and colonialism in many parts of the world, and so on.

 

[Nilgiri]

Came on, War and conflict is the greatest means to propel humanity through a new level, after each great wars humanity as a whole reinvent themselves and getting themselves much better and efficient to fight the next wars.

Napoleonic War bring us toward Industrial Revolution in England and much of Western Europe, American Civil War bring us toward How Industry affect the flow of war and arts of logistic issues, WW I bring us toward the new stage of political and ideology campaign of human and early mechanized era of warfare, WW II bring us toward Nuclear age and how modern industry and society is taking shape, the end of feudalism and colonialism in many parts of the world, and so on.

Periodic wars and upheavels/chaos are fine from time to time (within reason/ defined purpose), given the whole war is just extension of politics (and politics can be argued to the be the spearhead/aegis of human existence)...but that was back when no weapons available that wipe out entire cities and civilisations in one fell swoop.

Or do you propose it would have been evolutionary in a positive way to have cuban missile crisis turn into a hot war?

From India and Pakistan point of view anyway (even removing nukes from the argument), we are too poor still to have reached the point where there is any real benefit to war, we are not world technology/innovation creators in any broad enough sense.