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NEED FOR PAK MARINES SEPARATE AVIATION WING

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Why 12k marines and no amphibious/assault ships?

Any branch's special forces should be capable of operating in a naval setting (see e.g. 2 and 4 para in the Falklands). IMHO additional branches are just needless complications. Fund the navy (so it can actually support special forces)!
 
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Why 12k marines and no amphibious/assault ships?

Any branch's special forces should be capable of operating in a naval setting (see e.g. 2 and 4 para in the Falklands). IMHO additional branches are just needless complications. Fund the navy (so it can actually support special forces)!

there are some news on PDF that PN is building some Landing Craft's ... still does not make any sense , why ??
we are surely not in position to be invading some Land or been Aggressive in any Naval War ..
 
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there are some news on PDF that PN is building some Landing Craft's ... still does not make any sense , why ??
we are surely not in position to be invading some Land or been Aggressive in any Naval War ..
A ship like the French Mistral normally can carry 450 troops (1 btn) or double that for very short durations. As compared to 12000 marines ...
 
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A ship like the French Mistral normally can carry 450 troops (1 btn) or double that for very short durations. As compared to 12000 marines ...

well this huge increase in Marines is out of my head ... i really have no idea what PN is thinking ..
 
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Sir the helicopter production is a 25 year commitment.

It is,, an answer to our long term requirements and a project with long term implications. Still i think it is a totally new industry and we will find it difficult to start this at this point of time. Once we are done with some of other ROUTINE projects may be then...

This said, there is no doubt that if somehow we can go that route now, there is nothing better!

Fund the navy (so it can actually support special forces)!

Totally agreed!!
i guess this is something similar to going for a good Omni role multi role fighter jet rather then separate air superiority, groind attack and interceptor fighter!!
Fund the navy equip them to support different tasks and once that is done adequately, still if there is a need for dedicated arm for some special role then we should go for that.
 
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To make marines an effective force we need amphibious assault ships, helicopters both transport and attack, air defence missiles and may be a fighter squadron to provide air cover against enemy fighters
 
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Problem in pakistan military is not the men but the equipment

Raising a 12,000 marines is fair enough how do we actually plan to equip them

It's like the SSW for the Air Force, they need their own Transport and light utility vehicles and air borne equipment but we know it's not going to happen

Navy situation is even worse
 
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Though an old document but something interesting to read.


By LIEUTENANT COMMANDER SAQIB HASAN

CONFERENCE GROUP 12

MAJOR TEDD VEGGEBERG

USMC04 JANUARY 2010


NEED FOR A PAKISTAN MARINES SEPARATE AVIATION WING

Introduction

It was a usual summer morning on a remote Pakistan Marines surveillance detachment near the hostile creeks border of Pakistan with India, consisting of marshy and swampy area around Arabian Sea. After the roll call, the duties of individuals were being briefed when a young Marine just fell on the ground. It was a source of serious concern when a small snake was spotted fleeing from scene. A casualty evacuation (CASEVAC) message through helicopter was made on radio. The response was quite discouraging as all the Pakistan Navy (PN) helicopters (the only air assets available to Pak Marines) were at sea for a major maritime exercise. The detachment had to wait for at least 30 minutes which was crucial for the individual’s life. Detachment commander took risk and evacuated the casualty on a fast boat through sea. The life of individual was saved but the event highlighted the integrated aviation capability shortfall with Pakistan Marines, independent of PN.

In 1986, changes in geo-political situation necessitated the raise of an amphibious force for Pakistan and so the Pakistan Marines were raised in 1990, under Pakistan Navy.1

Initially the Marines were only utilized for perimeter security duties at naval installations, but soon were increased in strength and organized for complex duties like defense of 960 kilometers long Pakistan coastline 2.

Although since its inception, the aviation support for the Pak Marines was provided by PN Aviation but the same started overburdening its assets in terms of material / manpower resources. For example, as it is well known that besides its routine operational requirements, PN had to participate in US led Coalition Maritime Campaign Plan (CMCP) against GWOT. The said participation is with a destroyer (along with an organic helicopter) at Arabian Sea since 2004. Moreover, the PN helicopters (which the Marines predominantly require) are configured in the typical Anti Surface Vessel (ASV), Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Search / Rescue (SAR) roles at sea.Whereas Marines require helicopters in gunship and cargo/transport roles. Moreover, when these helicopters are reconfigured time and again to switch into the two roles, it causes effort / time elapse and equipment wear / tear.3
Therefore, separate aviation wing for Pakistan Marines would not only take the burden off the PN to support Marines but would support in the most desired roles i.e. cargo/transport and gunship.

Pakistan Naval Aviation Assets (Rotary Wing)


5. According to 2009 statistics 4, the rotary wing assets of PN are as follows:

a. Westland Sea King MK-45 / 45-A Helicopters.

It is a 2 to 4 crew, typically naval warfare oriented helicopter which is primarily capable of ASW, ASV and SAR at sea. Itis fitted with radar, variable depth sonar, communication suite, winch system for rescue, AM 39 air to surface missiles, MK 46 torpedoes and depth charges (against submarines)5. PN has six of these helicopters in service 6.

As per procedure of PN aviators, four of these can be deployed as organic helicopters on board two of PN tanker ships as two each on one ship. This very rarely fulfills the requirement of PN Fleet since there remain only two helicopters as reserve. The situation is further worsened if the operational availability of these helicopters falls down to the required number to PN Fleet and there is a simultaneous requirement by Pak Marines.

Note: Considering above characteristics of this flying machine it is concluded that its utilization at land for Pak Marines gunship role is unsuitable. Moreover, its use in transport role for Marines is it’s under utilization.The same would also be at the cost of ASW, ASV and SAR capabilities of PN Fleet at sea as organic helicopters on board tanker ships.

b. SA 319 B Allouette Helicopters.

It is a 2-crew helicopter which is primarily capable of limited SAR,reconnaissance and command / liaison duties for PN Fleet at sea 7. The helicopter is only fitted with a radar and communication suite and is ideal for deployment on board PN destroyers only as organic helicopter; since its size is compatible to limited landing space available at those destroyers 8. PN has six of these helicopters in its inventory 9 and are scarcely available as organic helicopters on board six of PN destroyers, with no reserve helicopters.

Note: Considering the above characteristics it is concluded that it is unsuitable for the Pak Marines gunship role due to no weapon on board. It is also unsuitable for cargo carrying and CASEVAC due to very limited space.Furthermore, its utilization at land operations with Marines would deprive the surface ships of the organic helicopter capability at sea, which is essential for surveillance, command and liaison duties.

Roles / Tasks of Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Marines


6. The shortfall of PN helicopters to support Pak Marines in quantity and configuration has become evident from the discussion above. The arguments (which in turn pave the way for separate aviation wing for both services) are further substantiated by the distinct roles of the two. Although the roles / tasks of Pak Marines are derived out of the over all roles / tasks of Pakistan Navy but are appended below separately, to qualify the need of separate aviation wings for both the organizations:

a. Roles / Tasks of Pakistan Navy 10.

(1) Defense of maritime borders of Pakistan on surface, sub-surface, air and amphibious dimensions.

(2) Surveillance / Reconnaissance of the national territorial waters.

(3) Maintenance of liaison between other national maritime agencies.

(4) Search and Rescue Operations at sea.

b. Roles / tasks of Pakistan Marines 11.

(1) Amphibious and anti-amphibious operations along Pakistan Coast.

(2) Harbor Defense of all the naval harbors along Pakistan Coast.

(3) Maintenance of Harbor Protection Organization(HPO) against unconventional attacks on naval vessels stationed inside Pakistan harbors along the Coast.

(4) Humanitarian assistance / disaster relief operations along coast.Comment: By scrutinizing the above, it is evident that the PN requires typical ASW, ASV and SAR configured flying machines whereas Pak Marines requires helicopters in gunship, cargo carrying /transport and CASEVAC roles at land.

Impediments on the way of Marines Aviation Wing (MAW)

7. Not denying the fact that the requirement of a separate aviation wing is very essential but keeping in view the recent financial crunch and logistics / technical support infrastructure required to be raised for a MAW; would be the hurdles on way. The same are discussed as under:

a. Cost factor.

The major hurdle to buy the new helicopters is the cost factor due to crippled national economy. PN is already getting the least share (27.5 Billion PK Rupees i.e. almost 25 %12) of defense budget of Pakistan (342.9 Billion PK Rupees 13) and that too for Marines who are getting further lesser from within the PN budget. In these circumstances, the purchase of new or even refurbished helicopters may an un affordable option. For comparison the cost of some major helicopters is given below:

Helicopter Origin Single Helicopter Cost (US $)

UH-60 (Black Hawk) US 14 Million 14

Mi-24/28 (HIND) Russian 15- 12 Million 15

EC 665 Eurocopter EU 46 Million 16

CH-46 US 6 Million in 1987 17

MV-22 Osprey US 68 Million 18


Table 1: Cost of Combat Helicopters

b. Additional infrastructure for
Aviation Group.

The formation of a separate aviation wing does not only mean the purchase of helicopter or aircraft but requires certain aviation infrastructure for the operations, training,logistics and technical support. Each one segment needs to be either raised from beginning or to be shared with any other counterpart organization. The salient of a setup for combat helicopters may be as follows:

(1) Training of pilots, air crew, ground crew and technical officers / men.

(2) Air to ground armament storage, inspection and delivery systems.

(3) Technical Support (avionics, electronics, aero engineering).

(4) Logistics support.

Suitable choice for Pakistan Marines

8. Mi-17 is the only suitable choice for Pakistan Marines as
the helicopter is already with Pakistan’s Army and Air Force 19 and is a cargo carrying/ CASEVAC capable and armed helicopter.It is a 3-crew multipurpose helicopter which can carry a maximum weight of 28700 lbs. Besides being spacious for 4 CASEVAC stretchers, it can also be armed with up to 3,300 lbs of disposable stores on six hard points (where a weapon can be attached), including bombs, rockets, and gun pods 20.

9. Further details of the counter arguments for raising a MAW by choosing this helicopter are as follows:a. Cost. To avoid the high purchase cost and maintenance thereafter, the Russian helicopters are being considered cost effective. Initially, only two of these helicopters are to be purchased. It will cost only 16 million $, at the rate of 8 million $ per machine 21, as compared to a single US helicopter Black Hawk of 14 Million US $ and that of a single Russian MI-24 (HIND) of 15-12 Million US $ excluding the infrastructure set up.b. Additional infrastructure for Aviation Group. The formation of a separate aviation wing by purchasing the already held helicopters in the inventory of Pakistan armed forces may not be needed to build from the scratch. The details of instituting the captioned setup / facilities maybe as follows:

(1) Training of Pilots, Air Crew, Ground Crew and Technical Officers / Airmen. The existing training set up of Officers and men of Pakistan Naval Aviation will remain the same, i.e. as it is well known fact that rotary wing pilots are being trained by Pakistan Army and fixed wing pilots including all branches of Air men (warfare and technical) are being trained by Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Therefore, the PAF trained PN Aviation Officers and Airmen may be deputed to serve in MAW.

(2) Air to ground armament storage, inspection and delivery systems. As it is very common knowledge that Pakistan Navy Ordnance depots are amply self sufficient and expert on all the air delivered weapons storage, inspection and maintenance. Therefore MAW would not have any potential snag in this regard.

(3) Technical Support (Avionics, Electronics, Aero Engineering). The contemporary infrastructure of Pakistan Naval Aviation (as is well-known) for the technical support of naval aviation is amply sufficient. The experience of running the engine over hauling, instrument repair / calibration and radar /navigation sensors are being handled since 1975.Therefore, adding an aviation technical support to the existing would make less concern

(4) Logistics Support. The Naval Air Stores Depot of Pakistan Navy has come a long way from 1975 to support the naval aviation logistically. The same may continue to support the Pak Marines MAW. The latest state of the art Inventory Management Systems, computerized issue points and connections of reliable contractors worldwide make the Pakistan Navy Air Stores Depot aviable option to logistically support the technical stores of Pakistan MAW.

Conclusion

10. The separation of Pakistan Naval Aviation into two exclusive wings for maritime and land operations can now be realized. It has to be given consideration since the current thin and inadequate equipped naval aviation is barely supporting the expanding land based Marine operations of Pakistan Marines.The contemporary market of helicopters is full of such machines but the economic conditions and related infrastructure would make it expensive. The only viable choice may be the purchase of gunship / cargo helicopters already held in the inventory of flying machines with Pakistan. But the fact remains undeniable that the inter services (between Army and Air Force) or inter arm (between naval aviation) coordination of Pak Marines is essential for the initiation of a MAW.

Will Mi-35's latest version will be good for Marines alongside Mi-17s?
 
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In future what will be the command structure for Marines? Will they still be under the same structure and will be subordinate to COMCOAST or will it be a new ARM of Pakistan Military? Secondly where exactly will they be deployed. All over Balochistan or ill be limite to specific areas ?
 
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Well we should give them BTR armored vehicles and other equipment may be even the new light Tank recently produced by China
 
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Necessary Equipment for Pakistan Marine Corps

Chinese Light Tank
194025z0e0m09o7ar4ef20.jpg



ZBZ-2000 Amphibious light tank
zbd_2000_light_tank.jpg


AAV 7

aav7_l1.jpg


QBZ 95 AUTOMATIC GRENADE LAUNCHER
B71G2WPIAAMcsRJ.png


Type 71 LPD

SO3bC.jpg


turkish landing craft
SSM_Landing-Craft-Tank.jpg
 
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@kaonalpha

Turkish Landing craft is being built.
The tanks that you have posted are Chinese but what Pakistan Navy Marines require a western one because the numbers would be far less in numbers then that required by Pakistan Army to do their operations on high elevation areas.
 
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Problem in pakistan military is not the men but the equipment

Raising a 12,000 marines is fair enough how do we actually plan to equip them

It's like the SSW for the Air Force, they need their own Transport and light utility vehicles and air borne equipment but we know it's not going to happen

Navy situation is even worse
why cant Pakistan makes all the tri services of forces operate as one unity like IDF?

centralizing the special forces of army navy airforce as well as other things is an effective way to tackle such problems.
 
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