‘Muslims need to assimilate into Europe’

[JayAtl]

First we should decide if we are talking about immigrants or born citizens. In the first case, the onus is on the immigrant to conform but, for born citizens, especially later generations, the debate changes drastically.

The question then becomes whether some citizens have a right to change the 'predominant culture'. Was it acceptable for pro-choice citizens to lobby for abortion rights? How about prayer in school (for or against)? Or use of certain religious texts in court rooms? In all these cases, the proponents of change were going against the 'dominant culture'. We don't hear much about it, but many of the challenges to overt Christian symbolism in the US/Canada come from Jewish plaintiffs.

What makes these citizens more equal than the Muslim ones?

we don't hear much because its meme made up by the likes of you and a lie... thats why.

Thats another thing relgious fanatics like to do- is spread conspriracy theories.

The ACLU which fights these cases is not a jewish organization... but then again that would mean you would have to know whom files these cases on vilolation of the constitution or civil rights on state vs church cases overwhlemingly. Btw church does not mean " church"... it means any religious body.

 

[Developereo]

we don't hear much because its meme made up by the likes of you and a lie... thats why.

Thats another thing relgious fanatics like to do- is spread conspriracy theories.

The ACLU which fights these cases is not a jewish organization... but then again that would mean you would have to know whom files these cases on vilolation of the constitution or civil rights on state vs church cases overwhlemingly. Btw church does not mean " church"... it means any religious body.

You're frothing at the mouth again.

National organizations like the ACLU and the SPLC often get involved later, when the situation fails to resolve locally. The ACLU isn't on a national hunt for challenging the church: the challenge is initially filed by individual privte citizens and then the ACLU gets involved.

Muslims are a recent phenomenon in the US. During America's history, most of the challenges to local prayer and Christmas ceremonies have been brought by individual citizens -- either Jewish, atheist or otherwise. Not Muslims.

Even today, there are instances of demands for change to established practices by Hindus, Sikhs and others. These stories die at the community level; rarely do they make the national headlines as they do when Muslims are involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale

The case was brought by the families of public school students in New Hyde Park, New York who complained that the voluntary prayer to "Almighty God" contradicted their religious beliefs. They were supported by groups opposed to the school prayer including rabbinical organizations, Ethical Culture, and Judaic organizations

http://www.secularontario.ca/zylberbergdecision.html

Of the three remaining appellants one is of the Jewish religion and another is
a Moslem. The third practises no religion but his wife is Roman Catholic

http://www.hafsite.org/?q=media/pr/prayer-public-schools

The Hindu American Foundation believes strongly that the separation of church and state must be maintained and that prayers should not be mandated in public schools during instructional time.

 

[Vinod2070]

This thread is nothing but another hate Muslim throwup.

If Muslims can assimilate in hindu (180° opposite to Islam) state than why can't they assimilate in a Christian state...

It's actually the other way round!

Half of the world's Muslims are converts from Hinduism. They must have found the new ideology (180° opposite to Hinduism) pretty odd, won't you say?

 

[Vinod2070]

In my opinion, comparing Muslims to Jews and/or Europeans Christians and then making claims is a waste of time. The issues involved are different.

One can either be sanctimonious about the issue or one can try and understand the real issues.

The real issues for Muslim integration in the West are different from Jews/European Christian migrants. They are better compared to other Asian/African migrants.

 

[Kazhugu]

"stuffing your own culture/law on them" would be something equally applicable on those already residing in the nation one immigrates to, and therefore would mean that native residents respect the cultural and religious beliefs of the immigrant residents, so long as they do not conflict with the nations laws - that does not preclude the immigrant or native residents from campaigning against proposed or enacted laws if they disagree with them, as long as this is done in a constitutional manner.

that is the most important keyword btw..

also it is not incumbent upon the natives to chnage themselves to suit the immigrants..rather its the other way round....if the majority of the natives for example feel that burqa is a security threat and must be banned...it must be banned....the immigrnats must learn to live with it..and it goes for all immigrants of all religions..not specifically for muslims...but then again other immigrants have shown they are much more capable of assimilation than the muslims...

 

[JayAtl]

You're frothing at the mouth again.

National organizations like the ACLU and the SPLC often get involved later, when the situation fails to resolve locally. The ACLU isn't on a national hunt for challenging the church: the challenge is initially filed by individual privte citizens and then the ACLU gets involved.

Muslims are a recent phenomenon in the US. During America's history, most of the challenges to local prayer and Christmas ceremonies have been brought by individual citizens -- either Jewish, atheist or otherwise. Not Muslims.

Even today, there are instances of demands for change to established practices by Hindus, Sikhs and others. These stories die at the community level; rarely do they make the national headlines as they do when Muslims are involved.

Engel v. Vitale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The case was brought by the families of public school students in New Hyde Park, New York who complained that the voluntary prayer to "Almighty God" contradicted their religious beliefs. They were supported by groups opposed to the school prayer including rabbinical organizations, Ethical Culture, and Judaic organizations

Secular Ontario Page

Of the three remaining appellants one is of the Jewish religion and another is
a Moslem. The third practises no religion but his wife is Roman Catholic

Prayer in Public Schools | Hindu American Foundation (HAF)

The Hindu American Foundation believes strongly that the separation of church and state must be maintained and that prayers should not be mandated in public schools during instructional time.

really- how fanatical can you be? how radicalized is your upbringing? - that you cite the odd the cases and wants us to believe that such is in the majority ? you are yet to show me an iota of proof to dispute the overwhleming FACT! that of the cases being brought forth, is by the agnostic crowd/ organizations.

DID YOU KNOW MUSLIMS BRING CASES TOO! as violations of chruch vs. state creed in the US too( see north carloina case and other odd cases about building mosques on private lands)? does that mean that it would be true if someone says that all muslims who bring it are hidden by the media like you stated about the jews?

ACLU gets involved later? do you even know their mandate? do you know how many cases they initiated in this sphere?... or is everything about big bad jews for you , as evident from your weekly mantra here..

do you even realize that other than your crowd of like minded folks-- rest of the world laughs about how your ilk is quick to crib about the same culture, democracry and like minded thinking that you covet- as evident from your choice of residency?


psst- ACLU does not need to be on a national hunt-- its a national civil rights gate keeper...,

stick to austrailian politics dundee... while you are at it, give my thanks to the PM for making the INDIAN/US alliance come closer -- and the forth coming uranium del- oh! let's not forget the US bases as a permanent fixture in your land --

 

[Kazhugu]

Many people around the world, Muslim and others, feel that Western culture is intruding upon their indigenous culture and lifestyle. So some Muslim conservatives feel it is only right for them to challenge Western culture 'at the source' as a tit-for-tat.

Btw, I noticed I brought in the concept of extremism by mistake -- we should probably get the discussion back to ordinary Muslims who fail to 'assimilate'.

then dont go the country for earning your living after all your culture is at stake....

they want to go there to earn money,....because their own countries are shithole when compared to west...but then they crib about how the western culture is destroying them and they must have revenge......

i dont know where these people get such ingenious logic frm....

---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------

My guess: They think the Western civilization is based on Judo Christian values.

exactly....and it has been emitted from the horse's mouth many times when the western leaders have openly admited that their culture is based on judeo-chritian values and not arabic or islamic just like indian culture is based on dharmic values or chinese culture is based on confucian/buddhist values.......why dont these people understand that simple point....

 

[Kazhugu]

@jayatl....dude among the islmists there are two types...one is the explicit islamist...semi-illiterate one with the skull cap and a funny beard....these are the ones that are muscle ...they participate in all the rallies...shout hate slogans...burn flags and in extreme cases go around wearing a suicide jacket like a gucci...

the second category is the literate,suave , urbane western looking one in high positions but only with the mind of the former....using the pen as their propaganda weapon....they are the complement of the former type and in my mind the more dangerous one because they are difficult to spot and cause much more damage with their idealogy.....the poster you replied comes in this category...

 

[TruthSeeker]

I must say, i agree with superkaif bhai's posts. we need to be careful in the usage of the word 'assimilation'. i was not born in America, I only immigrated here about 9 years ago, but i respect it completely, I have total respect for its constitution & its laws, & would never impose my religious beliefs over anything that violates the constitution/law of this country. That's pretty much what I think.

Your statement above, in my opinion as a native born, Christian European-American, encapsulates the American "ideal" of assimilation.That is, an "assimilated" American believes that the US Constitution is the basis for American law and does not seek to change "America" in any way other than the ways that are provided in the US Constitution. As a corollary, I, as a multi-generational immigrant (German-Scottish heritage dating from the 19th century) accept that more recent immigrants have the complete right to bring their culture, and even change the existing American culture, as long as they operate within the bounds of the US Constitution to do so.

Further, I firmly believe, that the strength and success of the USA is, in large measure, the result of the continuous improvement of American culture by the critical contributions of "assimilated" immigrants who have come to America for the past 300+ years.

 

[JayAtl]

Your statement above, in my opinion as a native born, Christian European-American, encapsulates the American "ideal" of assimilation.That is, an "assimilated" American believes that the US Constitution is the basis for American law and does not seek to change "America" in any way other than the ways that are provided in the US Constitution. As a corollary, I, as a multi-generational immigrant (German-Scottish heritage dating from the 19th century) accept that more recent immigrants have the complete right to bring their culture and even change the existing American culture as long as they operate within the bounds of the US Constitution to do so.

lo behold the greatness of america( his comment above)... how many of you would accept your 50 generations of minorities as america does with its first?

all they ask .. follow our constitution and keep your " original" countries religious , political, regional politcs to your kitchen table. and IF you are to seek its citizenship - show some loyalty . would you ask any different of your immigrants?

 

[jeypore]

What most people do not understand is that assimilating represents accepting and living within the culture of given country, when you push that culture, law begins to change accordingly, to keep oneself close to that culture or laws of the country. So saying this, Muslims in the western culture are pushing there on culture that existed in there former country, and the question I would ask why so? and If so, if it is really an important part of your life, why not move out to an environment that would suit your need....


For example in Minnesota, there were these Muslim taxi cabs that did not allow any customers, caring any wine/alcohol, in there cabs. They took this incident to court and lost, but this was an direct push on the culture of America.

thanks..

 

[jeypore]

lo behold the greatness of america( his comment above)... how many of you would accept your 50 generations of minorities as america does with its first?

all they ask .. follow our constitution and keep your " original" countries religious , political, regional politcs to your kitchen table. and IF you are to seek its citizenship - show some loyalty . would you ask any different of your immigrants?

That one achilles heel that America has can be Pushed and Pushed, compare/study, the achilles heel, of any other nation, and the results will be gloomy, that is why you are living in Atlanta, GA..........

 

[JayAtl]

That one achilles heel that America has can be Pushed and Pushed, compare/study, the achilles heel, of any other nation, and the results will be gloomy, that is why you are living in Atlanta, GA..........

huh, sorry I did not get what you trying to imply.

 

[TruthSeeker]

What most people do not understand is that assimilating represents accepting and living within the culture of given country, when you push that culture, law begins to change accordingly, to keep oneself close to that culture or laws of the country. So saying this, Muslims in the western culture are pushing there on culture that existed in there former country, and the question I would ask why so? and If so, if it is really an important part of your life, why not move out to an environment that would suit your need....


For example in Minnesota, there were these Muslim taxi cabs that did not allow any customers, caring any wine/alcohol, in there cabs. They took this incident to court and lost, but this was an direct push on the culture of America.

thanks..

Jeypore,

I don't think they should feel that they have to "move". Rather, they merely need to learn to "live and let live". Many religious minorities have created local neighborhoods wherein their unique mores can dominate. So, if you are a Mennonite who does not want the "modern" world to overly influence your children, then so be it. Buy farms in the same part of Pennsylvania, send your children to Mennonite schools, and carefully manage their interactions with the non-Mennonite world. But don't try to make Pittsburgh give up their Steelers because playing sports is a Mennonite "sin". Live your way, lawfully, but don't interfere with others living their different, but equally lawful, way as well.

 

[jeypore]

huh, sorry I did not get what you trying to imply.

Read your own words to what I replied too, instead of your own ego!!!!!!!!!

Thanks.......