Mullahism V/S Liberalism

[Amaa'n]

@Slav Defence I hope I am not late joining the party
Well I opted for option # 2. Mindset like TTP's version of islam.
Why I said that? because of hypocrisy mate, Hypocrisy. I am not a philosopher nor a scholar on Islam so I will talk straight up on whats on the ground. TTP calls themselves the greatest islamists, and believe there acts pictures the Quran. However I have yet to see where does it say in Quran to behead & blow up innocents. that is hypocrisy.
Maulana sab at our local mosques are very pious, everyday tears come out of his eyes while begging from his Lord (Allah), begging for forgiveness.
But once the Salah is finished and time for Madrasa comes near, you will see maulana sab voilating every single rule of Islam.
If a child can't pronounce the word properly or makes a mistake - maulana sab will force it down his throat - hitting them with a stick, slapping, murgha bna dena etc.
When it comes to Dua on Juma prayers, jo zaida paisay de ga us ke liye dua utnay zoor se ho gi. And some poor lad like me won't pay up to Maulana sab - no dua for me.
If maulana sab himself won't rape or sexually abuse the kid at his madrasa , but he actually will allow the elderly teen at the madrasa do the honor to the younger ones.
Maulana sab will come to my house and lecture me how TV is haram and how bad it is, however you will find their own kids watching tv 24/7 with maulana sab having no issues.

this my dear is bad for Pakistan.
However I wont say liberalism in its current form is also good for Pakistan. it needs to be evolved too. the society is filled with fake liberals

 

[Dubious]

I think you are mistaken.. For me tolerance is respecting other religion and allow them to follow their path.. You do not have to add any more of their practices to your's.. Hinduism done a better job than both Islam and Christians in this regard..

Well, then you have not read some Islamic history....When Prophet moved to Madinah oh wait let me call it Yathrib before someone says I dont know my history as back then it was called that....

Anyway, when he moved there, Muslims, Jews and Christians had a peaceful treat...

Islam IS the most tolerant religion...If Islam wasnt, not 1 person who is of other religion would be present in the areas the Muslims ruled...

Example of Egypt itself that you can find Christian families who have been Christians since 500 yrs or more...Jewish and Christians as well as Zoroastrian families of Iraq and Iran are living proof they were not wiped off! THAT is tolerance....But many just look the other way...If sooo many yrs back when Islam was strong, they didnt wipe these people off....why dont people call this tolerance?

 

[Iggy]

Well, then you have not read some Islamic history....When Prophet moved to Madinah oh wait let me call it Yathrib before someone says I dont know my history as back then it was called that....

Anyway, when he moved there, Muslims, Jews and Christians had a peaceful treat...

Islam IS the most tolerant religion...If Islam wasnt, not 1 person who is of other religion would be present in the areas the Muslims ruled...

Example of Egypt itself that you can find Christian families who have been Christians since 500 yrs or more...Jewish and Christians as well as Zoroastrian families of Iraq and Iran are living proof they were not wiped off! THAT is tolerance....But many just look the other way...If sooo many yrs back when Islam was strong, they didnt wipe these people off....why dont people call this tolerance?

Look dear, both our religion fought a long war in the name of religion just because we couldn't stand against each other.. I can blame it on your religion and you can blame it on my religion.. Anyway the issue was intolerance to other religion.. Both our religions spread to other areas, mainly through swords and money.. Yes, there are many examples to show that both our religions are tolerant.. Yes, what we learn from our books are of love and kindness.. Still, for me Hinduism was more flexible and tolerant religion than Islam or Christianity..

 

[Slav Defence]

@Slav Defence I hope I am not late joining the party
Well I opted for option # 2. Mindset like TTP's version of islam.
Why I said that? because of hypocrisy mate, Hypocrisy. I am not a philosopher nor a scholar on Islam so I will talk straight up on whats on the ground. TTP calls themselves the greatest islamists, and believe there acts pictures the Quran. However I have yet to see where does it say in Quran to behead & blow up innocents. that is hypocrisy.
Maulana sab at our local mosques are very pious, everyday tears come out of his eyes while begging from his Lord (Allah), begging for forgiveness.
But once the Salah is finished and time for Madrasa comes near, you will see maulana sab voilating every single rule of Islam.
If a child can't pronounce the word properly or makes a mistake - maulana sab will force it down his throat - hitting them with a stick, slapping, murgha bna dena etc.
When it comes to Dua on Juma prayers, jo zaida paisay de ga us ke liye dua utnay zoor se ho gi. And some poor lad like me won't pay up to Maulana sab - no dua for me.
If maulana sab himself won't rape or sexually abuse the kid at his madrasa , but he actually will allow the elderly teen at the madrasa do the honor to the younger ones.
Maulana sab will come to my house and lecture me how TV is haram and how bad it is, however you will find their own kids watching tv 24/7 with maulana sab having no issues.

this my dear is bad for Pakistan.
However I wont say liberalism in its current form is also good for Pakistan. it needs to be evolved too. the society is filled with fake liberals

Congratulations Balixd,you are one of the smartest members of PDF who understood my actual point very well,such so called representatives of Islam should be condemn,I will show you a hadith according to which those preachers will suffer of torment who will themselves will not follow the Islamic principles,but will teach other,a/c to Hadith,when people see such preacher on resurrection day they will ask that why he is suffering as he used to preach us about god's commandment?they will be told that he himself avoid to follow,while he lectures other.
Second,according to another Hadith when Rasool Allah was mentioning doom's day,told sahaba that:"A time will come when fools will preach Islam rather then pious one"
So,basically pseudo mindsets who entitle themselves with respectable term like Maulana etc are very poisonous and dangerous,they shouldn't be allowed to take such titles,in fact they should be tested by local committee of mufti's then must be given a licence to lead mosque,I have already shared my experience that how much this venom has effected a life of individual.

 

[Amaa'n]

Congratulations Balixd,you are one of the smartest members of PDF who understood my actual point very well,such so called representatives of Islam should be condemn,I will show you a hadith according to which those preachers will suffer of torment who will themselves will not follow the Islamic principles,but will teach other,a/c to Hadith,when people see such preacher on resurrection day they will ask that why he is suffering as he used to preach us about god's commandment?they will be told that he himself avoid to follow,while he lectures other.
Second,according to another Hadith when Rasool Allah was mentioning doom's day,told sahaba that:"A time will come when fools will preach Islam rather then pious one"
So,basically pseudo mindsets who entitle themselves with respectable term like Maulana etc are very poisonous and dangerous,they shouldn't be allowed to take such titles,in fact they should be tested by local committee of mufti's then must be given a licence to lead mosque,I have already shared my experience that how much this venom has effected a life of individual.

help me out here bro, am trying to find that ayat from Quran where it is said that when nations will be questioned for their deeds they say oh lord we were just following our leaders - and they have strayed us, and it will be said to them , did you not have knoweldge.......i cant find the exact translation for this

 

[Slav Defence]

help me out here bro, am trying to find that ayat from Quran where it is said that when nations will be questioned for their deeds they say oh lord we were just following our leaders - and they have strayed us, and it will be said to them , did you not have knoweldge.......i cant find the exact translation for this

It is all mentioned in Surah e Qasas,the last section of Surah.

 

[asad71]

1."Mullahism" is a term introduced by the wicked Western media to malign a Muslim institution. We must shun this. If Liberalism here implies that Muslims are not liberal or Islam requires liberating,then this is again defective understanding of Islam. Islam is the most open, liberal and practical faith which is so simple and easy to follow / practice.

2. Some people may go to extremes in their zeal. That is exceptional and must not be seen as the rule. Also we need to put things in perspective. There are special conditions in Dar ul Harb - as in India. Muslims in places or in particular periods in history have come under attack. These could be physical or otherwise. We have had varying experience in the winding period of al Andalusuia extending over 300 years. We have had similar experience in the Philippines.

3.In SA a slow and gradual process of devouring us began with the rise of the Marhattas. This is now in exposed. Some physical measures to counter are apparent. However, the more important intellectual and political moves for the survival of SA Muslims is lacking. Allama Iqbal was the first Muslim to say prayers in the famous Cordoba mosque after it was taken by the Christians in 1492. In Karachi Poet Nazrul Islam, then serving as a Havildar in the Bengali Company, came in touch with scholars, thinkers and other people who were concerned about the condition of the Muslims of SA, Ottoman Empire and the world at large. Their input created the concept of Pakistan which was the physical manifestation of the Two Nation Theory. And the SA Muslims found their leader in Jinnah to achieve their objective.

4. Late Mahmud Ali of Sylhet, a cabinet minister in Pakistan for life, had founded a movement called Tanzim e Taqmil e Pakistan (I am not sure I have coined the name correctly). This movement was teaching people that Pakistan was an ongoing project which did not end on 14 Aug 1947. Some people have gone to extremes to come back to the true ideology of Pakistan after half-Qadyiani Musharraf tried to introduce secularism quoting from a speech of Jinnah quite out of context. The rulers and intellectuals of Pakistan should convincingly move to restore Pakistan in the path of its ideology. Only then, and not by using military force, can Pakistan achieve peace and ensure the irrelevance of "Mullaism" if there is such a thing.

 

[Slav Defence]

If Liberalism here implies that Muslims are not liberal or Islam requires liberating,then this is again defective understanding of Islam. Islam is the most open, liberal and practical faith which is so simple and easy to follow / practice


Exactly,very well said Mr @asad71,here are such mindsets who project false image of Islam as extremely conservative,extremely restricted religion,and this impression must be changed,and for this we must condemn such mindsets who are twisting Islam and ruining the actual concept of it.
Second,the west got such chance to demonize Islam because we provided them,our illiterate action,biases,contrary to Islam actions etc provided them a chance to abuse Islam more then before.

 

[Paris]

If Liberalism here implies that Muslims are not liberal or Islam requires liberating,then this is again defective understanding of Islam. Islam is the most open, liberal and practical faith which is so simple and easy to follow / practice


Exactly,very well said Mr @ASAD,here are such mindsets who project false image of Islam as extremely conservative,extremely restricted religion,and this impression must be changed,and for this we must condemn such mindsets who are twisting Islam and ruining the actual concept of it.
Second,the west got such chance to demonize Islam because we provided them,our illiterate action,biases,contrary to Islam actions etc provided them a chance to abuse Islam more then before.

99% Muslim Countries are Theocratic , Racism is Institutionalized in Constitution . Ethnic cleansing of minority is Goal of every Muslim Country .

Islam is not Religion peace , it's Fact. Tolerance is Zero . Place where Islam born there is not a single non-Muslim Religious Existence (Saudi).

All over World Muslims are Troubling non-Muslims (there is no other such community ) . Heat Preaching against non-Muslims is Common practice in Mosques .

 

[Slav Defence]

99% Muslim Countries are Theocratic , Racism is Institutionalized in Constitution . Ethnic cleansing of minority is Goal of every Muslim Country .

Islam is not Religion peace , it's Fact. Tolerance is Zero . Place where Islam born there is not a single non-Muslim Religious Existence (Saudi).

All over World Muslims are Troubling non-Muslims (there is no other such community ) . Heat Preaching against non-Muslims is Common practice in Mosques .

Your posts clearly mentions your lack of research no offence,Mr.Paris,your so-called peaceful mindsets are no less for launching a brutal warfare,the whole past history is evident of it.We didn't engaged your so-called world wars,we didn't launched crusade wars in the past centuries,and Hitler incident,we didn't killed 3-6 million jews,before telling us about 'Ourself' you better look at your face in mirror of past as well.

 

[Dubious]

Look dear, both our religion fought a long war in the name of religion just because we couldn't stand against each other.. I can blame it on your religion and you can blame it on my religion.. Anyway the issue was intolerance to other religion.. Both our religions spread to other areas, mainly through swords and money.. Yes, there are many examples to show that both our religions are tolerant.. Yes, what we learn from our books are of love and kindness.. Still, for me Hinduism was more flexible and tolerant religion than Islam or Christianity..

Ahhh that is the point! FLEXIBLE yes ISLAM is not flexible...You cant dance and say you are praying nor can you bow to someother deity and say its ok I called ALLAH while I was doing that...NO

But we are tolerant ...though our followers are not...That seriously is THEIR problem! Nothing to do with the religion....Islam DOES NOT preach intolerance!

Here is a piece I liked of how much misunderstanding is flying around:

Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101}
Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9}
Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}
I thanked my friend for making this point as well as indicating these verses, and then responded as follows:

Comments:
Clearly, the above verses can incite much animosity and subsequent violence vis-a-vis all non-Muslims. Accepted literally - and uncritically - these verses lend themselves to the unjust persecution of otherwise innocent people, whose only crime is being non-Muslim. However, a pivotal matter of linguistic importance is often overlooked: the significance and usage of the definite article, "al" (i.e., "the"), which precedes the various disparaging Arabic words - kafirun, mushrikun - that describe non-believers in the Quran and which are often translated as "non-believers," "infidels," "idolaters," or "polytheists." Furthermore, in Arabic, the definite article is physically attached to the word it describes.

See below:

Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101}
Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9
Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}
The exact Arabic expression in these verses - indeed, in every verse that talks of the non-believer - is "Al-Kaferrin" or "Al-la-dhina Kafaru." The use of "Al-" or "Al-la-dhina"limits the verse (and thus commandment) to 1) a specific time and place in historyand 2) a specific group of people who were obstacles to the establishment of Islam in its nascent phase. It is these two factors that caused these verses to be revealed.

Had the intentions of the Quran been to extend the application of these verses in perpetuity, it would have used the expression "Man Kafar," rather than "Al-Kafereen" or "Al-La-dhina Kafaru". The former, "Man Kafar," literally means any one who does not believe in God; while the latter, "Al-Kafereen," - the infidels - denotes a specific group of people: they who fought Prophet Mohamed in the early stages of Islam.

Moreover, the overriding principle which must ultimately guide our understanding of these verses is the constant Quranic reminder that good Muslims do not initiate violence against others so long as the latter do not provoke hostilities.

Quran 2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who start fighting you, but do not transgress limits (or start the attack); for God loveth not transgressors.

Indeed, according to other verses, even if a Muslim deemed someone an infidel, according to the Quran, he is still obligated to:

1. Behave with courtesy :
Consider, for instance, the following verse, which is supposed to instruct Muslims as to how they should deal with non-Muslims in the midst of hostilities (such as war): 9:6 And if any of the Idolatries (who are fighting you) seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure:
If Muslims are to behave with such clemency and magnanimity vis-a-vis the infidel during times of war and conflict, how much more should be expected of their interactions with non-Muslims during times of peace?

2. Respect his freedom of choice to be a "Disbeliever" - as this is a right bestowed upon humanity by God:
Quran 18:29 proclaims, "The truth is from your Lord": it is the free will of any person to believe (in God) or to be an Infidel (Un believer).

3. Even if a Muslim should be convinced that someone is a non-believer, still he must accept that his fate is in the hands of God alone, since no one human can condemn another - this must be left to the judgment of God.
Quran 88:25-26 for behold, unto (ONLY) Us (means God) will be their return, Then it will be for (ONLY) Us to Judge (humans).
22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean an ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.

ISLAM for peace

 

[truthseer]

Ahhh that is the point! FLEXIBLE yes ISLAM is not flexible...You cant dance and say you are praying nor can you bow to someother deity and say its ok I called ALLAH while I was doing that...NO

But we are tolerant ...though our followers are not...That seriously is THEIR problem! Nothing to do with the religion....Islam DOES NOT preach intolerance!

Here is a piece I liked of how much misunderstanding is flying around:


ISLAM for peace

For them, tolerant means that you should bow before their deities and offer sacrifices to them, nothing less. The Hinduvta Brigade shouldn't be tolerated

 

[Dubious]

Kindly read post 206 1st

Point 3: Are we allowed to judge others or condemn them as "Infidels"?

One of the issues that we must bring to the fore is the fact that the Quran forbids us from judging others. This has been expressed clearly in many verses.

Quran 88:25: For behold, unto Us will be their return,
Quran 88:26: Then it will be for (only) Us to call them to account.

By using the Arabic word "Inna" - which means "We" (i.e., God) - to begin 88:26 is a clear indication that it is ONLY God who can judge humans. To better comprehend why it is that humans are not capable (or allowed) to pass judgment against their fellow man,

I offer the following analogy: Consider, for a moment, a long, stretching river - let's call it "The River of Truth." People are swimming at various points along this river. Now, let’s assume that absolute truth lay at the very end of the river, say, point 100. Based on this, we would assume that the person swimming alongside point 95 is closer to the Truth - and therefore better - than the person swimming alongside point 5.

However, what if the fact was that the closer person had started out at 100, and had actually drifted away from the truth by 5, whereas the further person had actually started at 0 and was now 5 closer to the Truth? While it would be impossible for us to know this - it is not impossible for God, for He would certainly know this about both persons, He would know that the person on 5 was striving hard (that is, performing Jihad) for Truth's sake. Based on this all too plausible scenario, it becomes obvious that in the eyes of God, the man on point 5 of the River of Truth is better than the person on point 95. It is for this very reason that the Quran has unequivocally stated that ONLY God can pass judgment on humans:

22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean certain ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.

As finite humans we do not possess the foreknowledge of God and thus we are in no position to pass judgment over others.
Of course, we are capable of distinguishing between good and bad deeds - however, without the omniscience of God, we cannot judge this person or that as being either good or bad (as demonstrated earlier). If anyone had seen Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) (PBUH) as he worshiped various planets and stars, as well as the moon and sun, before he at last came to worship the true God (as recorded in the Quran as well ancient Jewish scriptures), they would have considered him a "mushrik"—that is, an idolater or simply, an infidel. In fact, God Himself was pleased with Ibrahim since he was at least making a sincere effort to find the true God.

Quran 6:75 And thus We gave Abraham [his first] insight into [God's] mighty dominion over the heavens and the earth - and [this] to the end that he might become one of those who are inwardly sure.

Quran 6:76 Then, when the night overshadowed him with its darkness, he beheld a star, [and] he exclaimed, "This is my Sustainer!" -but when it went down, he said, "I love not the things that go down."

Quran 6:77 Then, when he beheld the moon rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer!"-but when it went down, he said, "Indeed, if my Sustainer guide me not. I will most certainly become one of the people who go astray!"

Quran 6:78 Then, when he beheld the sun rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer! This one is the greatest [of all]!" - but when it [too] went down, he exclaimed: "O my people! Behold, far be it from me to ascribe divinity, as you do, to aught beside God!

Quran 6:79 Behold, unto Him who brought into being the heavens and the earth have I turned my face, having turned away from all that is false; and I am not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him."

The search for Truth - the desire to find the Divine - is in and of itself a great deed, even if the individual seeker never ascertains absolute Truth. The act itself possesses great intrinsic value and is demonstrative of a willing heart.

As God plainly reveals in his Holy Quran:
Quran: 29:69 And those who strive in Our paths to find us (God)),- We will certainly guide them to our Paths: For verily God is with those who do right.

From here, we should learn once and for all to never be judgmental against others but to leave judgment to God alone.
Saiidna Issa (Jesus) PBUH is recorded in the scriptures as saying, "Judge not lest ye be judged...and by the same measure you judge others by, so too will you be judged."
Imagine how you would feel if you judged someone for their apparently bad deeds when, all the while, that person was suffering from a mental illness that influenced their negative actions? If this happened, it would be you who had sinned - who had truly committed a bad deed - for you passed judgment without knowing all the facts. It is for this very reason that God said to Prophet Mohamed in his Holy Quran :

Quran 46:9 Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the apostles, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. God is the ONLY one who can judge humans.

ISLAM for peace
@Slav Defence @seiko @RazPaK @hinduguy @doppledangler @balixd @qamar1990 @gambit @Aeronaut @Awesome

 

[livingdead]

@seiko .. kindly dont bring hinduism into debate as there is no specific 'dos' and 'donts' in hinduism, it depends on individual hindus to be either peaceful or intolerant. There is no evidence that hindus as a whole are either peaceful or intolerant.

 

[Slav Defence]

Kindly read post 206 1st

ISLAM for peace
@Slav Defence @seiko @RazPaK @hinduguy @doppledangler @balixd @qamar1990 @gambit @Aeronaut @Awesome

My dear,sweet @Talon,remember we discussed an article few days before,in which it was mentioned that who deserves to share knowledge and who not?
That is why I never become defensive over such posters as they are not willing to enhance and clear the actual conception of Islam,but to abuse it by their delusions,no matter how much you will give them explanation,they will keep on derailing you,the best solution is to ignore such trolls.