Mullah of a local mosque incited murder of Christian couple, says police

[T-Faz]

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I believe this is not correct because a lot of Muslims who had learnt Quran by heart were alive, Fatima and Ali were alive (who would know Mohammed's Islam better than the Ahl-e-Bait), and if Usman had in any way adulterated the Quran, it would have been picked up real fast and resisted. Even post-Islam, Arabs were distinctly divided in their clans and tribes (hence Moawiah's mutiny against Ali), and prone to petty interests. Any such move (adulteration of Quran) by Usman would lead to a civil war but it did not happen.

That is a valid point, and this is why many people believe that the differences between the versions was not vast.

One of the biggest issues with Islamic history during that time was a lack of historic records. In that period, and in that region, there wasn't a tradition of creating written records. This changed once the Qur'an was compiled by Uthman. It also solidified the caliphate.

Incidentally, it is said that Uthman was murdered while reading the very Qur'an he compiled.

 

[Developereo]

Law enforcement is one part.
Making the public and society better is another part altogether.

Should not your public understand that it is better to treat all equally. When you legally sanction discrimination against some citing religious reasons, it does not take long for the people to use the same yardstick and principles on other aspects and apply it themselves.

This state sanctioned discrimination comes directly from your religion. At the end of the day you can say whether or not it is 'real Islam'...but frankly, your 'real Islam' is different from someone else's 'real Islam'. In earlier times, access to information was not as widespread and so people had limited information.
But because of unprecedented global information connection and sharing in the internet age - we see what someone's 'real Islam' is doing globally(from Saudi Arabia to Malaysia) - and therefore the Islam bashing has become fashionable.

Address both parts of the cause - law enforcement and religion. Using law enforcement as a cause without pointing out religion is just as flimsy as using religion as a cause without pointing out law enforcement deficiencies.

There are a host of issues in society.

Crimes against women and children are orders of magnitude more common than crimes against minorities. This is also true in India. Just because the global media has made it fashionable to bring Islam into every discussion doesn't mean we can stop using our own brains.

To address any problem, one must evaluate the options and pick one which provides the greatest return. Fixing the core issue of law enforcement will reduce crime and improve society in far more drastic and far-reaching ways than addressing one part of the problem.

For example,
If a mullah buys a gun and kills people, it's a religious problem.
If a husband buys a gun and kills his wife, it's a misogynistic problem.
If a Punjabi or Sindhi buys a gun and kills a Balochi, it's a racial problem.
If a pedophile uses a gun to abduct children, it's a pedophilia problem.

We should address each problem individually, but fixing the gun issue will provide the greatest return on investment. I am using 'gun' here as a symbolic placeholder to represent deficiencies in the criminal justice system.

 

[Norwegian]

If a mullah buys a gun and kills people, it's a religious problem.
If a husband buys a gun and kills his wife, it's a misogynistic problem.
If a Punjabi or Sindhi buys a gun and kills a Balochi, it's a racial problem.
If a pedophile uses a gun to abduct children, it's a pedophilia problem.

If a Qadiani uses a gun to defend himself from the violent attackers, its a nationalist problem

 

[Dubious]

Now that you asked me a series of questions please let me reply....And I will need to quote the Quran coz I am not at all comfortable of speaking something which is not from me....and if you have ideas different to these please feel free to debate

This is great!
Its all in the Quran, and if you need further elaboration on things not mentioned in the Quran, then the Hadith will do. if its this simple why doesn't it exist?

It really is as simple as that...ALL the things you require to be a good human = good Muslim is in the Quran.....and elaborated by the Hadith and the Sunnah of the Prophet...

Islam being a religion from God ...it is stated that the souls yearn for to be with the lord and do good coz that is the instinct put in man (Naturally) other things he learns or spreads when he doesnt control alot of such things are written and shown how Satan had them too starting from

Disobedience - he didnt bow to clay when told to do so
due to his

pride (where he said he being made of fire is superior than that made of clay so wont bow)

And other sins...

Now why isnt it that simple in today's world?

A random child/ teenager would rather spend 20 hrs searching up game cracks than spending 1-2 hrs on the Quran
A random child/ teenager (esp from PDF) would spend 20 hrs searching up anti Islamic sites to bash Islam then read the verses themselves or the context of the situation
A random adult works his *** off and comes home gets any problem would go to a pir/ back alley Mullah over opening the Quran which has collected dust on his shelf
A family suffering from a calamity will at once go to those Pir to ask for a taweez then to open the Quran for doa of Nabi yunus or Nabi Yusuf or Nabi Ayub....

I am not sure why in sub continent there is soo much relying on someone else for interpretations without opening the Quran themselves...I was never thought that way...

Now you'll say, and you've already stated in your post that people need to open the Quran. Read it and you shall find the real Islam. I have read the Quran in Arabic and English, as well as a commentary on it. The commentary came about because I thought the book had to be explained, it has many verses which are metaphorical, and need elaboration.

My dad being a typical Pakistani dad had the habit of I told you so that is law no questions asked...I opened the Quran for myself to prove him wrong and I managed one too many times...My mom who had a BA in Islamiayat and MA in English realized she should apply it more often...And no Alhamdulillah no one can push me around...Yes my initial reasoning might be wrong but my dad literally pushed me into a corner to seek HIS help and I did...Why people dont I cant relate...

Surah Baqarah 2:2-6
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].Those are upon

guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Surah Imran 3:3
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Surah Al'A'raf 7:2
[This is] a Book revealed to you, [O Muhammad] - so let there not be in your breast distress therefrom - that you may warn thereby and as a reminder to the believers.

God mentions in Sura (Maryam) 19:97
{So We have made this (Quran) easy in your own tongue, only that you may give glad tidings to those who are God-conscious and warn with it the most quarrelsome people.}

Surah Muhammad 47:24
{Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Quran, or are their hearts locked up?}


Sura (Saad) 38:29 states:
{A Book which We have sent down to you, full of blessings, that they may ponder over its signs (verses), and that men of understanding may remember}

Surah Hud 11:1 states:
Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted.

Surah Yunus 10:1 states:
Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the wise Book

Surah Yusuf 12:1-2
Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the clear Book. Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand.

And many more verses...was the Quran joking on this?

Anyone can read it, and come up with their own conclusion. The Quran doesn't set absolute and certain guidelines on many things. Its a holy book which covers wide topics from a superficial perspective. You've made things sound simple, when they aren't.

No those who fear God will not come up with their own conclusions....The verses are clear to make us human...and humble ones...once we have achieved that we can go read Hadith and you will find some which dont make sense and by not following them or following them you will not fall out of Islam....as long as the initial process (humble human) is complete!

The Quran was compiled by Usman, who was a mere human. He burned all the parches where it was said to be written down on. Hazrat Ali had a different version, which he presented to the different companions but was rebuked.

1stly Quran was already in a book form because prophet's wife Hafsa and Aisha had a copy each....Uthman collected what we call is dialect versions and burnt them ---In order to understand this we need to pick up history and understand a little bit of Arabic lingusitics:

Quran is a language with various dialects....You have the Somalian dialect, the Egyptian ones both are really different! The problem was Islam was spreading really fast and those who had memorized the Quran ...many had died in battle (of course some were still alive and many new ones were memorizing it)....

What happened was since the Quran was originally sent in the Qureshi dialect and (even some now in Saudi) didnt have the vowel (3 – Harakat – Vowel Marks | English - LearnQuranOnline on top of it and these were added so that people will not read it as in their dialect (Those who know Arabic know that single change in the vowel can change the word - not all words but some)

So Uthman picked up all these and burnt them he added the vowel :

got it double checked with that from Hafsa.....asked a few of those who had it memorized to make sure even 1 vowel isnt misplaced.....and burnt all the others distributing only this copy....

you can read a little more here: http://www.aldhiaa.com/english/book...me_old_manuscripts_of_the_holy_quran/002.html

As usual I dont stick to 1 person I read a few people's narration

Now the scripts may differ there is the Sub continent who prefer the Nastaliq script

and then nasakh script

...and many others...different scripts is not a problem

The people in the times of Hazrat Mohammed (SAW) were known to remember poetries and other literature by heart. Most people who knew the Quran, knew it by heart. It was only when a strong disagreement occurred between convert soldiers that Usman realised that a written account was needed to provide guidance. Another factor was that many people who knew the Quran by heart were killed in the Ridda wars.

Oops I wrote that all on top didnt realize your next bit would mention it

You are right that Allah has defined it, but its definition is open for interpretation. Prior to Al-Ghazali, the popular thought of Muslim theologians was that Allah does not have knowledge of, or any interference with, what humans do on a day to day basis. Free will means you can do what you want, but you have the guidance and means to live a rightful life. If its all open, its your choice hence religion will always differ on how its practiced by people.

AGREED

Yes its definition is open to interpretation...But no where does it say transgress in your interpretation ...

There are many things which are clearly put and literally ordered...many things end with will the mind not ponder, will you not ponder on the signs (so these are for you to ponder on)

Like I said it is clear sign for those who want to take it as a clear sign for those who want to cause mischief they will cause it look at ISIS....ALLAH also said if HE willed he could have made everyone a believer but then there would be no free will....

When you are granted something (free will) you also get a bonus called responsibility....Many understand not

Now if the WORLD has laws...sun doesnt move out of its orbital, earth revolves WITHIN its orbital and doesnt go flying to Saturn....why is it hard for something much smaller like humans to have laws too? Do good and get good do evil and get evil were the simple laws known as karma and still apply...but a few more have been added to make life "easier" do good TO your parents, neighbours, orphans, widows, relatives, needy and so on....

Given charity was already a law but then it was defined further to make life easy...do charity and help the women who need (widows and divorcee) help the orphans (look after them but steal not even a grain of rice from them) be nice to women (so much that heaven is in the feet of thy mother- doesnt mean go kiss the feet or something but respect her and uplift her honorably) and since almost every woman is either already a mother or will be a mother ....you see for a person of pure heart they will stay within their boundaries and not get confused sure they can interpret but since the heart is pure they will not think like the satan ​

Sorry, I don't understand this.

Let me re read waht I wrote...

Ahh no there is no 1 country which follows Islam COMPLETELY...since it is a natural religion many (welfare countries) have converged to it...

i.e. welfare state - Islam has details about forming a welfare state even khalifah during that time made their state for the people and their welfare...

Where does the problem lie? Well Nationalism.....Saudi Arabia is a tax free welfare state...thought the welfare is only for Saudi nationals...over the people who live there (As was the case during the Khalifah's times)

The Prophets times, yes. The Sahaba's time, no. Look at how some of the Sahaba's met their end. If that was real Islam, then we are in great danger.

By them being killed for doing the right things is bad? Then I dont mind such a death....If I make a welfare state, where everyone living irrespective of their race, colour and origin getting benefits ...If I manage to make Pakistan like that and enemies of such an idea kill me...I will be a happy person on my death bed!

A large amount of research will inevitably lead to you question the existence of God.

Not at all...everytime answering various questions on PDF....I have not reached to such a conclusion and am not sure how people can claim such a thing...Maybe coz if ever in doubt I go to the one who is more knowledgeable (my sustainer) ...

And HE already said ask me and I will give...along with other verses where HE said the best and most successful are those who do sabr!

Hope all this answers your questions

 

[T-Faz]

Now that you asked me a series of questions please let me reply....And I will need to quote the Quran coz I am not at all comfortable of speaking something which is not from me....and if you have ideas different to these please feel free to debate

It really is as simple as that...ALL the things you require to be a good human = good Muslim is in the Quran.....and elaborated by the Hadith and the Sunnah of the Prophet...

Islam being a religion from God ...it is stated that the souls yearn for to be with the lord and do good coz that is the instinct put in man (Naturally) other things he learns or spreads when he doesnt control alot of such things are written and shown how Satan had them too starting from

Disobedience - he didnt bow to clay when told to do so
due to his

pride (where he said he being made of fire is superior than that made of clay so wont bow)

And other sins...

Now why isnt it that simple in today's world?

A random child/ teenager would rather spend 20 hrs searching up game cracks than spending 1-2 hrs on the Quran
A random child/ teenager (esp from PDF) would spend 20 hrs searching up anti Islamic sites to bash Islam then read the verses themselves or the context of the situation
A random adult works his *** off and comes home gets any problem would go to a pir/ back alley Mullah over opening the Quran which has collected dust on his shelf
A family suffering from a calamity will at once go to those Pir to ask for a taweez then to open the Quran for doa of Nabi yunus or Nabi Yusuf or Nabi Ayub....

They do a lot of this in the madrassa, reading the Quran I mean. You can't tell me that all students in the many religious schools don't actually learn the translation of the Quran. There must be people who know know its meaning or understand it. If they do not read it then the madrassa is the biggest waste of time and space. If they do, then Quran doesn't have the answers.

Anyhow, how would reading Quran or researching Islam help a person?

Apart from a religious and spiritual point of view, it doesn't provide any instructions on how to get by our day to day life. It provides a bigger picture, and this is the reason why Hadith exist.

I have another question for you. If the Quran is from God himself, why is there a need for Hadith? After all, the all powerful God can give you all that you need in an expansive book. We wouldn't have to rely upon accounts of the Prophet to get an elaboration on things.

I am not sure why in sub continent there is soo much relying on someone else for interpretations without opening the Quran themselves...I was never thought that way...

An Arab I knew told me that Islam is their religion because it was created by them in their language. I got really angry at this, and I said the Prophet wouldn't agree with you. He said that the Arabs defeated us, which is why we are Muslims. I wanted to rip this Arabs head off, but I couldn't because I worked with him. What he said troubled me a lot, and I thought a great deal about it. I started researching religion, and I learned many things. I've been taught a lot of false history, and this Arab was even worse off than me. Islam was spread and grew under an umbrella of groups, but its all accredited to the Arabs for one simple reason, it was all written in Arabic.

Its always difficult to understand something that is foreign. This is the reason why its not understood. Have you ever thought of that?

By them being killed for doing the right things is bad? Then I dont mind such a death....If I make a welfare state, where everyone living irrespective of their race, colour and origin getting benefits ...If I manage to make Pakistan like that and enemies of such an idea kill me...I will be a happy person on my death bed!

A perfect system or one dictated by God cannot work this way. What happened as a result of these assassinations was a great political move, but it has led to a morally questionable expansion. Simple as that.

Not at all...everytime answering various questions on PDF....I have not reached to such a conclusion and am not sure how people can claim such a thing...Maybe coz if ever in doubt I go to the one who is more knowledgeable (my sustainer) ...

And HE already said ask me and I will give...along with other verses where HE said the best and most successful are those who do sabr!

Hope all this answers your questions

All that you write about Islam is your belief, and belief is your perception of the truth. Religion is a belief. If it makes you do good, then great, I am all for it. If it causes great problems and issues then it needs to be revised or removed.

 

[Dubious]

They do a lot of this in the madrassa, reading the Quran I mean. You can't tell me that all students in the many religious schools don't actually learn the translation of the Quran. There must be people who know know its meaning or understand it. If they do not read it then the madrassa is the biggest waste of time and space. If they do, then Quran doesn't have the answers.

If it were as simple as that it wouldnt be a mystery

Well there is a difference in
1) knowing how to read the Quran
2) Reading the translation
3) Understand it in context

Now lets take the most frequently used verse in the Quran:

1)

Anyone who can read Arabic can read that verse

2) Read the translation and have your jaw drop:

Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do. Quran 9:16

3) Understand it in context :

Anyhow, how would reading Quran or researching Islam help a person?

Read the example I just wrote ^^

Now after listening to the 5 min clip read the translation....

Tell me any difference you noticed?

Apart from a religious and spiritual point of view, it doesn't provide any instructions on how to get by our day to day life. It provides a bigger picture, and this is the reason why Hadith exist.

True...BUT Quran provides the basic platform for your daily needs not your wants...

Needs: to eat : EAT HALAL
Need to sleep: Quran talks about sleeping
Need to marry: covered

and so on...

If the Quran is from God himself, why is there a need for Hadith?

Being a scientist, for me it is always better to see something practically done or doing it over reading it in a book...

Having a human example do what ALLAH commends shows that a normal human can theoretically achieve that which the Quran states and it is not a fairy tale or something too high to achieve

An Arab I knew told me that Islam is their religion because it was created by them in their language. I got really angry at this, and I said the Prophet wouldn't agree with you.

True:

Firstly,

I would have picked any of the various verses stating this:

“This is the Book. In it is guidance surely without any doubt, to those who fear God, who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what we have provided for them. And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. Those are upon

guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.”
(Sura Baqarah, verse 2 and 5)

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

and asked him to look for the word Arab (Nation/ race) in it! The day he finds it he can come talk to me...till then to hang his pride out to dry!

He said that the Arabs defeated us, which is why we are Muslims.

Islam defeated the PAGANess in the Arabs and that is why he was called a Muslim....We are called a Muslim coz Allah called us that:
Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience..This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 5:3)

There are bad people in EVERY society let not 1 person make you judge a nation!

Islam was spread and grew under an umbrella of groups, but its all accredited to the Arabs for one simple reason, it was all written in Arabic.

It is not accredited to Arabs....but to Islam...if you read it otherwise then that is the fault of those telling you so!

Its always difficult to understand something that is foreign. This is the reason why its not understood. Have you ever thought of that?

I am doing a PhD that makes 4 yrs BSc + 1 Yr MSc and now 3rd yr PhD....If I can spend 8 yrs of my life in books on science I think I can spend few hrs a day on Islam....After all the forever that I need to answer will rely on these few hrs I give while my 70-80 yrs life on earth wil lrely on these 8+ yrs worth of learning even then when I reach 50 + I wont be that strong soo...basically, I am only learning all this for fewer years than forever!

All that you write about Islam is your belief, and belief is your perception of the truth. Religion is a belief.

In the Quran it says EVERYONE / Everything bows to ALLAH....so basically even if no a single human believed in ALLAH HE would still have believers (trees, mountains, sky, oceans and so on) And according to Arabic as a language anyone who is practicing obedience to ALLAH is a Muslim...So Muslims will still be even without humans.....

It is not a perception but it is a system here to stay with or without us to enforce its belief! with or without us cracking our head over what is real and what is perception!​

 

[VCheng]

Here is a thought:

If everything bows to Allah and even if not a single human believed in Allah, He would still have believers in the trees and mountains and the skies and the oceans, then it may not be a bad idea to clean up the human population and its religious beliefs and leave "true" Islam for these peaceful things He has created.

Win-Win situation!

 

[DesiGuy]

Here is a thought:

If everything bows to Allah and even if not a single human believed in Allah, He would still have believers in the trees and mountains and the skies and the oceans, then it may not be a bad idea to clean up the human population and its religious beliefs and leave "true" Islam for these peaceful things He has created.

Win-Win situation!

if allah exists....he would today side with atheists then so called religious ppl...!