Mullah of a local mosque incited murder of Christian couple, says police

[rockstar08]

Anything new? No, good.

@rockstar08 Told you, boy.



Exactly, why would non-Muslims bother to read, whats written in Islamic texts? It dont make sense, how many Muslims would open and read Torah or the Old testament?

@Secur i never doubt your intelligence brother ... but you probably miss my point ....
what i was trying to say that , we should investigate , and there you get the real truth behind the whole scene ..now as we know that some local mullah is behind it ... now what is my suggestion for him /?? he should be hang right in front of the same mosque he use to do imamat ....
will it be a proper solution ?? you hang the mullah responsible of charging the mob ?? but what about the mob ?? who will change their mentality ?? there you need a atmosphere of better relationship between muslims and non muslim living in pak . you need to build trust .. responsible persons from both sides has to sit together and share their concerns together ..
Christians will make sure that anyone from their community will not do anything to hurt muslims sentiment ( not related to this case )
and muslims will make sure that they will protect their Non muslim Pakistani minorities ..

 

[Musafir117]

Anjame gulistan keya hoga!!
When pure have mullah like
Moulana Disel
Moulana Tokka
Moulana Whiskey
Moulana Tharki

Stop molvi save Pakistan and Islam.

 

[haviZsultan]

Personally I will say that the problem is us Muslims and our narrow mindedness. Why don't we work on Ijtehad or mutazilite thought. Why don't we think about secularism like Ibn Rushd and Iqbal wanted us to think about.

We are a bunch of opportunists waiting for the chance to strike at Christians or Hindus in Pakistan without even thinking once. The mullah will be hanged, lets say the courts do their job and he is hanged (which usually never happens) what about the crowd who reacted to the mullahs call. Where was their brain?

I believe we have a major problem right within our psyche. We are taught to hate a man of the nature of Abdus Salaam or Zafarullah Khan, whom Quaid E Azam called a son of Pakistan. I am absolutely sick and tired of the treatment meted out to our minorities. These people stayed back in Pakistan knowing there would be hatred against them in the future because of some dim-witted mullahs, they stayed because they believed in the ideal of a united secular Pakistan. Ahmedis (Zafarullah Khan), Hindus (Joginder Nath Mandal), Christians (Cornelius) all worked together to form a Pakistan that was secular. Some mullahs came along and decided that Pakistan would be led by orthodox ideals and conservative thought.

The blame falls on Zia Ul Haq for fanaticizing society. But the roots were much earlier when Ayub Khan declared us a purely orthodox stage. Also lets not forget Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who declared all Ahmedis non-muslims. They continue to suffer mistreatment OFFICIALLY in every aspect of life.

 

[Norwegian]

Personally I will say that the problem is us Muslims and our narrow mindedness. Why don't we work on Ijtehad or mutazilite thought. Why don't we think about secularism like Ibn Rushd and Iqbal wanted us to think about.

Ijtihad? Really? Buddy haven't you visit the havoc on this thread:
Changing times: Ijtihad and other questions Muslims must revisit

@Zarvan
@Aether

 

[T-Faz]

• That which is in the Quran and "SAHIH" hadith...In fact you might not even need the hadith to recognize it

Once people start flushing fatwahs by unlearned people who have hijacked Islam or stop going to them and opening the Quran themselves instead of letting it gain dust on their shelves they will learn to see the difference!

This is great!

Its all in the Quran, and if you need further elaboration on things not mentioned in the Quran, then the Hadith will do. if its this simple why doesn't it exist?

Now you'll say, and you've already stated in your post that people need to open the Quran. Read it and you shall find the real Islam. I have read the Quran in Arabic and English, as well as a commentary on it. The commentary came about because I thought the book had to be explained, it has many verses which are metaphorical, and need elaboration.

Anyone can read it, and come up with their own conclusion. The Quran doesn't set absolute and certain guidelines on many things. Its a holy book which covers wide topics from a superficial perspective. You've made things sound simple, when they aren't.

Allah in the Quran has defined it

The Quran was compiled by Usman, who was a mere human. He burned all the parches where it was said to be written down on. Hazrat Ali had a different version, which he presented to the different companions but was rebuked.

The people in the times of Hazrat Mohammed (SAW) were known to remember poetries and other literature by heart. Most people who knew the Quran, knew it by heart. It was only when a strong disagreement occurred between convert soldiers that Usman realised that a written account was needed to provide guidance. Another factor was that many people who knew the Quran by heart were killed in the Ridda wars.

You are right that Allah has defined it, but its definition is open for interpretation. Prior to Al-Ghazali, the popular thought of Muslim theologians was that Allah does not have knowledge of, or any interference with, what humans do on a day to day basis. Free will means you can do what you want, but you have the guidance and means to live a rightful life. If its all open, its your choice hence religion will always differ on how its practiced by people.

1 country? no..But since it is the religion of GOD ...meaning it is natural people fall on it and practice it without knowing

Sorry, I don't understand this.

When people wanted it and valued Allah over themselves...Prophet and Sahaba´s time...When people were afraid to even do 1 kajoor ka insaaf...

The Prophets times, yes. The Sahaba's time, no. Look at how some of the Sahaba's met their end. If that was real Islam, then we are in great danger.

Because now people prefer to go to uneducated unlearned men to explain to them (people who basically will explain what they want the other to know..In the Quran such people are known to have sold their religion for a little bit of fame) instead of spending few hours to learn the real thing.

Covered before.

With internet at your fingertips people prefer to research on what their neighbour is doing over what will benefit them in the grave and hereafter.....

A large amount of research will inevitably lead to you question the existence of God.

 

[Gunsnroses]

The Quran was compiled by Usman, who was a mere human. He burned all the parches where it was said to be written down on. Hazrat Ali had a different version, which he presented to the different companions but was rebuked

So the repercussions are true, however shia scholars deny this claim now or may be doing taqiyya.

The Prophets times, yes. The Sahaba's time, no. Look at how some of the Sahaba's met their end. If that was real Islam, then we are in great danger.

Are you really a moderator?
You are opening a chapter of bashing each other. We are talking about sectarian and inter-faith tolerance and harmony here.

 

[liontk]

So the repercussions are true, however shia scholars deny this claim now or may be doing taqiyya.


Are you really a moderator?
You are opening a chapter of bashing each other. We are talking about sectarian and inter-religions tolerance and harmony here.

He brings up valid points although it opens a scary Pandora box that I am not sure I ever want open but I give him props for going down that scary route.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@T-Faz : From your personal perspective , do you think we will ever get to that utopia that certain persuasive sharia advocates have claimed over current institutionalized systems ? I will have to be honest because at one point in my life, I thought such a utopia was possible solution to everything as eloquently presented by certain sharia advocated from Keynesian economics problems to old idealism vs realism debate. However as I am getting older, I feel like there is no absolute solution to any problem but rather balance is key to everything. I know i am going on a super tangent but your response made me kind of think about the possibility of sharia utopia working over the current academic institutional approach that we have in the west, which honestly take a super long time to evolve and its still not perfect .

 

[T-Faz]

So the repercussions are true, however shia scholars deny this claim now or may be doing taqiyya.

There were different versions of the Quran. Its now believed that the differences were limited, while other sources state that Hazrat Usman changed many things to suit his needs. We wouldn't know what happened because everyone went to agree with the Quran that we have now.

Are you really a moderator?
You are opening a chapter of bashing each other. We are talking about sectarian and inter-religions tolerance and harmony here.

I sure am a moderator, I've been around for years.

What wrong have I said that its harming an already fractured sectarian relation? Truth is the truth, and it'll help us if we look history how it happened.

 

[Gunsnroses]

He brings up valid points although it opens a scary Pandora box that I am not sure I ever want open but I give him props for going down that scary route....

and @T-Faz

The valid points you or him talking about valid to whom? The sources @T-Faz talking about credible to whom? Well, my only suggestion is these topics have been discussed among the scholars of both sides to death and let those scholars decide what is best for us. We are commoners, and here on forums if you get a harsh reply then don't chirp look he is intolerant! You demand a snowballing of throwing mud at each other. Please leave us commoners as commoners and let us find a common ground to prosper.

 

[T-Faz]

He brings up valid points although it opens a scary Pandora box that I am not sure I ever want open but I give him props for going down that scary route.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@T-Faz : From your personal perspective , do you think we will ever get to that utopia that certain persuasive sharia advocates have claimed over current institutionalized systems ? I will have to be honest because at one point in my life, I thought such a utopia was possible solution to everything as eloquently presented by certain sharia advocated from Keynesian economics problems to old idealism vs realism debate. However as I am getting older, I feel like there is no absolute solution to any problem but rather balance is key to everything. I know i am going on a super tangent but your response made me kind of think about the possibility of sharia utopia working over the current academic institutional approach that we have in the west, which honestly take a super long time to evolve and its still not perfect .

I don't know if there ever will be an ideal utopia. My thinking is that you will need a single narrative, and thought, amongst all inhabitants of a place for such a utopia to exist. This is something that is impossible. Time and time again, the differences between followers of Islam has led to a harmful collision.

I am very impressed by the depth of study conducted by Islamic scholars during the so called golden age of Islam. From Avicenna (Ibn Sina) to Averroes (Ibn Rushd), there was so much that was written about rationally, and a logical conclusion provided for all Islamic doctrines. However, their work and influence disappeared once a traditionalist approach took hold of Islamic reasoning.

The western system accommodates differing parties under one government, and they all have an equal opportunity to lead. In an ideal Islamic state, the head of state will have to be appointed by God which presents a problem in the Muslim world today. We are after all very different from each other.

 

[Developereo]

Coz its easier to blame it on Islam just like them media is teaching

Islam-bashing has become fashionable, so every Tom, Dick and Harry will pontificate on the evils of Islam.

Everybody is talking about regulating mullahs and doing this or that. It's all empty talk since a state which can't even enforce parking regulations or collect delinquent electricity bills won't be able to implement any reforms anyway.

 

[Judge]

Islam-bashing has become fashionable, so every Tom, Dick and Harry will pontificate on the evils of Islam.
.

It has become fashionable because of an underlying cause. It was not out of nothing or hot air.

 

[Developereo]

It has become fashionable because of an underlying cause. It was not out of nothing or hot air.

I don't deny that there's a problem with people using Islam as a cover to commit crimes.

My point is that it's better to address the core issue of lax law enforcement.

Let's say we fix the issue with mullahs. Will that solve the problem with pedophiles, misogynists, racists and other common criminals?

Why not fix law enforcement first?

Any 'fix' for mullahs will be ineffective anyway if the criminal justice system can't enforce it.

 

[syedali73]

'Hang to Mullah', Death to Mullah', is all fine but have you guys thought why people listened to that Mullah in the first place? Why they took the law in their own hands?

This shows that people no longer believe in the judicial system and understand that even if the culprits were arrested, they'll be freed later on or made to escape the country like it has happened before.

The blasphemy law was there for a reason and the reason was to protect the minorities from the angry mobs and give them opportunity of defense. However, how many times did the blasphemy accusers were sent to jail? Is this not the fact that almost every time this issue was politicized by the NGO and accusers made to leave the country?

The crime was horrible and deserves severest condemnation and the accusers must be given exemplary sentences, while at the same time, we need to seriously revisit the judicial system, especially the lower courts, and restore the confidence of the public into it. We also have to ensure that certain Western-backed NGOs don't meddle into the judicial matters and must not influence the judges through electronic/print media. It is not that each and every blasphemy accuser is innocent. If we were failed in doing so, similar or worst incidences will continue to occur unabated.

There were different versions of the Quran. Its now believed that the differences were limited, while other sources state that Hazrat Usman changed many things to suit his needs. We wouldn't know what happened because everyone went to agree with the Quran that we have now.

I believe this is not correct because a lot of Muslims who had learnt Quran by heart were alive, Fatima and Ali were alive (who would know Mohammed's Islam better than the Ahl-e-Bait), and if Usman had in any way adulterated the Quran, it would have been picked up real fast and resisted. Even post-Islam, Arabs were distinctly divided in their clans and tribes (hence Moawiah's mutiny against Ali), and prone to petty interests. Any such move (adulteration of Quran) by Usman would lead to a civil war but it did not happen.

 

[Judge]

I don't deny that there's a problem with people using Islam as a cover to commit crimes.

My point is that it's better to address the core issue of lax law enforcement.

Let's say we fix the issue with mullahs. Will that solve the problem with pedophiles, misogynists, racists and other common criminals?

Why not fix law enforcement first?

Any 'fix' for mullahs will be ineffective anyway if the criminal justice system can't enforce it.

Law enforcement is one part.
Making the public and society better is another part altogether.

Should not your public understand that it is better to treat all equally. When you legally sanction discrimination against some citing religious reasons, it does not take long for the people to use the same yardstick and principles on other aspects and apply it themselves.

This state sanctioned discrimination comes directly from your religion. At the end of the day you can say whether or not it is 'real Islam'...but frankly, your 'real Islam' is different from someone else's 'real Islam'. In earlier times, access to information was not as widespread and so people had limited information.
But because of unprecedented global information connection and sharing in the internet age - we see what someone's 'real Islam' is doing globally(from Saudi Arabia to Malaysia) - and therefore the Islam bashing has become fashionable.

Address both parts of the cause - law enforcement and religion. Using law enforcement as a cause without pointing out religion is just as flimsy as using religion as a cause without pointing out law enforcement deficiencies.