MRCA Competition-threat to PAF?

[blain2]

IAF dont need 5th gen fighter yet as it will be countering 3rd gen fighters in PAF most the times. IAF already has 4.5th gen fighter and v dont need MRCA to be 5th gen... and India is also working on FGFA closely with Russia, may be sometime after induction of MRCA and the MKI gets its full number the 5th gen fighter will be thought to IAF but not now...

And for you will PAF counter 4th, 4.5th gen fighters IAF has with 3rd gen?

Hopefully you understand what a 3rd gen and 4/4.5 gen is. If going strictly by definition, none of the aircraft in the current service of the IAF are 4.5 gen. If no other modification, a true 4.5 generation aircraft incorporates an AESA capability. IAF has exactly zero aircraft with this capability. TVC/IRST and an Israeli EW kit does not make your MKI a 4.5 gen. aircraft as much as you would like to believe. At the very basic, the MKI is still flying with a PESA capability which is nothing revolutionary over lets say the Captor PD radar on the Typhoon. So lets just think through these things logically. There is no need to create new classes of aircraft when in reality there is no specific difference in the aircraft of 4th gen. vs. 4.5 gen aside from avionics. And the nice thing about avionics is that any aircraft can get upgrades.

Nothing else that is on the IAF aircraft which are touted to be 4.5 gen is out of the ordinary. IRST, ECM/EW, glass cockpit etc. and DFW are available to Pakistan in various platforms.

Nothing that PAF has starting from MLU F-16s, ROSE Mirage, BLK-52s, JF-17 and FC-20 is less than 4th generation. There is no structural changes in the 3rd and 4th generation aircraft aside from avionics. The F/A-18 has been both a 3rd gen and a 4th gen aircraft after newer avionics and AESA was introduced to the platform. The 4.5 generation classification is essentially for those aircraft that came after 3rd gen but could not fit the 5th generation classification.

I know for a fact that PAF have evaluated the Typhoon fairly closely and are very confident that they can have the same capabilities in J-10. So all this talk about 3rd, 4th and one better 4.5 generation is to excite buyers and fans. There is nothing revolutionary in terms of the aircraft design etc. starting from 3rd gen to 4/4.5 gen. If you have the money, you can pay to glass the aircraft and upgrade its avionics and that will move you up the classification. This is the name of the game currently.

You will see in the next few years that PAF and IAF will be fielding the same capabilities on their platforms because of the way the integration will take place on their aircraft.

 

[rajeev]

I know for a fact that PAF have evaluated the Typhoon fairly closely and are very confident that they can have the same capabilities in J-10.

Where did you read this? This statement may not be accurate.

 

[batmannow]

Hopefully you understand what a 3rd gen and 4/4.5 gen is. If going strictly by definition, none of the aircraft in the current service of the IAF are 4.5 gen. If no other modification, a true 4.5 generation aircraft incorporate an AESA capability. IAF has exactly zero aircraft with this capability. TVC/IRST and an Israeli EW kit does not make your MKI a 4.5 gen. aircraft as much as you would like to believe. At the very basic, the MKI is still flying with a PESA capability which is nothing revolutionary over lets say the Captor PD radar on the Typhoon. So lets just think through these things logically. There is no need to create new classes of aircraft when in reality there is no specific difference in the aircraft of 4th gen. vs. 4.5 gen aside from avionics. And the nice thing about avionics is that any aircraft can get upgrades.




Nothing else that is on the IAF aircraft which are touted to be 4.5 gen is out of the ordinary. IRST, ECM/EW, glass cockpit etc. and DFW are available to Pakistan in various platforms.

Nothing that PAF has starting from MLU F-16s, ROSE Mirage, BLK-52s, JF-17 and FC-20 is less than 4th generation. There is no structural changes in the 3rd and 4th generation aircraft aside from avionics. The F/A-18 has been both a 3rd gen and a 4th gen aircraft after newer avionics and AESA was introduced to the platform. The 4.5 generation classification is essentially for those aircraft that came after 3rd gen but could not fit the 5th generation classification.

I know for a fact that PAF have evaluated the Typhoon fairly closely and are very confident that they can have the same capabilities in J-10. So all this talk about 3rd, 4th and one better 4.5 generation is to excite buyers and fans. There is nothing revolutionary in terms of the aircraft design etc. starting from 3rd gen to 4/4.5 gen. If you have the money, you can pay to glass the aircraft and upgrade its avionics and that will move you up the classification. This is the name of the game currently.

You will see in the next few years that PAF and IAF will be fielding the same capabilities on their platforms because of the way the integration will take place on their aircraft.

Dear, Sir!

thanks, for your detailed answer on thread, but are you watching, they are not stepping back, they are taking the argument, on the financial levels!
& belive me , if we give them, tht too, thn they will come back, with something different!
now, in that case, what we should do? there should be a "BAMBOO" time? for at least,"SENIOR" member!

 

[batmannow]

Where did you read this? This statement may not be accurate.

oky, Dear AM of IAF!
is not accurate! whatever you post, is the only thing in the world, seen as accurate?

 

[notorious_eagle]

Where did you read this? This statement may not be accurate.

You are talking to an ex servicemen, he does not needs to read any off this stuff because he gets his info first hand.

 

[blain2]

Where did you read this? This statement may not be accurate.

I did not read this. I know of this first hand. There is a reason as to why the delivery timeframe of the FC-20 is slated for 2013-14. Otherwise PAF would have inducted the aircraft as it is flying with the Chinese. There are things afoot on the FC-20 front.

 

[gaurysh]

Hopefully you understand what a 3rd gen and 4/4.5 gen is. If going strictly by definition, none of the aircraft in the current service of the IAF are 4.5 gen. If no other modification, a true 4.5 generation aircraft incorporate an AESA capability. IAF has exactly zero aircraft with this capability. TVC/IRST and an Israeli EW kit does not make your MKI a 4.5 gen. aircraft as much as you would like to believe. At the very basic, the MKI is still flying with a PESA capability which is nothing revolutionary over lets say the Captor PD radar on the Typhoon. So lets just think through these things logically. There is no need to create new classes of aircraft when in reality there is no specific difference in the aircraft of 4th gen. vs. 4.5 gen aside from avionics. And the nice thing about avionics is that any aircraft can get upgrades.

Nothing else that is on the IAF aircraft which are touted to be 4.5 gen is out of the ordinary. IRST, ECM/EW, glass cockpit etc. and DFW are available to Pakistan in various platforms.

Nothing that PAF has starting from MLU F-16s, ROSE Mirage, BLK-52s, JF-17 and FC-20 is less than 4th generation. There is no structural changes in the 3rd and 4th generation aircraft aside from avionics. The F/A-18 has been both a 3rd gen and a 4th gen aircraft after newer avionics and AESA was introduced to the platform. The 4.5 generation classification is essentially for those aircraft that came after 3rd gen but could not fit the 5th generation classification.

I know for a fact that PAF have evaluated the Typhoon fairly closely and are very confident that they can have the same capabilities in J-10. So all this talk about 3rd, 4th and one better 4.5 generation is to excite buyers and fans. There is nothing revolutionary in terms of the aircraft design etc. starting from 3rd gen to 4/4.5 gen. If you have the money, you can pay to glass the aircraft and upgrade its avionics and that will move you up the classification. This is the name of the game currently.

You will see in the next few years that PAF and IAF will be fielding the same capabilities on their platforms because of the way the integration will take place on their aircraft.

If we go by your arguments then the 5th gen fighters wont be much of a thing they would be a fabricated peice of machine on which cosmetic surgery would be done to impress buyers such as IAF... then why don they do away with generation Sir???

And i dont thing IAF would get induced by selling tricks like this otherwise they would not have taken such long time for MRCA...

I dont have much details of avionics of a fighter but whatever knowledge i have i dont think J10 can match typhoon....

 

[blain2]

If we go by your arguments then the 5th gen fighters wont be much of a thing they would be a fabricated peice of machine on which cosmetic surgery would be done to impress buyers such as IAF... then why don they do away with generation Sir???

And i dont thing IAF would get induced by selling tricks like this otherwise they would not have taken such long time for MRCA...

I dont have much details of avionics of a fighter but whatever knowledge i have i dont think J10 can match typhoon....

Gaurysh,

My point is exactly that between 3rd gen. and 5th gen, there is an evolutionary and generational difference. The same does not apply to 3rd/4th and this 4.5 generation classification. A 3rd generation aircraft upgraded with comparable avionics and armaments will do just fine facing off other 4/4.5 gen aircraft.

MRCA for IAF makes sense because it would be the first platform with a fully integrated AESA capability. Secondly its the largest purchase which has Western options in the running as well. All these things take time.

Read my earlier point about j-10 vs. FC-20 issue.

 

[Sapper]

I dont have much details of avionics of a fighter but whatever knowledge i have i dont think J10 can match typhoon....

Why is that ?? i wonder ...

Is that because its made in china rather than made in UK or USA or Europe ?

Until someone gets definitive performance parameters of FC-20, no one can say that ... Typhoon and FC-20 are somewhat of the same category, its not like we are comparing FC-20 with Raptor, in which case you can go ahead and say that FC-20 will not match F22.

You are comparing an aircraft in service (Typhoon) with an aircraft that is undergoing development ... wait till its out before you accept or reject the notion of it being superior/inferior to Typhoon.

 

[rajeev]

I did not read this. I know of this first hand. There is a reason as to why the delivery timeframe of the FC-20 is slated for 2013-14. Otherwise PAF would have inducted the aircraft as it is flying with the Chinese. There are things afoot on the FC-20 front.

That will be quite impressive if it is the truth. But you said there were trails done for Eurofighter Typhoons with J-10. Wont there be any kind of new published like Pakistan attended an airshow or Pakistan RFP for new planes includes Typhoon,etc.

If J-10 are so good, then Su-30 wont stand a chance, but there are recent orders from Indian and Chinese for more Su-30. Why would China buy more Su-30 if J-10 are better than them.

Also, Typhoons as you know that each of them cost about 80-120 million a piece, whereas J-10 cost is about 30 million.

 

[gaurysh]

Why is that ?? i wonder ...

Is that because its made in china rather than made in UK or USA or Europe ?

Until someone gets definitive performance parameters of FC-20, no one can say that ... Typhoon and FC-20 are somewhat of the same category, its not like we are comparing FC-20 with Raptor, in which case you can go ahead and say that FC-20 will not match F22.

You are comparing an aircraft in service (Typhoon) with an aircraft that is undergoing development ... wait till its out before you accept or reject the notion of it being superior/inferior to Typhoon.

Yes it is because made in UK or USA is definitely better then China, china is Still young in fighter jet development and it cannot be trusted by anybody Except PAF which has no choice left other then china

 

[batmannow]

Yes it is because made in UK or USA is definitely better then China, china is Still young in fighter jet development and it cannot be trusted by anybody Except PAF which has no choice left other then china

My very,Dear! sir
i am sorry to say , that i cant see any indian , agreeing on CHINESE growing influenses in the AVIATION sector!
I guss, its natural!

 

[gaurysh]

My very,Dear! sir
i am sorry to say , that i cant see any indian , agreeing on CHINESE growing influenses in the AVIATION sector!
I guss, its natural!

And sir i cant either see anybody other than pakistan seeing Chinese influence in aviation sector

I guess its natural tooooo

 

[batmannow]

And sir i cant either see anybody other than pakistan seeing Chinese influence in aviation sector

I guess its natural tooooo

I guss, you are missing something HERE, with more thn 50 years defence co-opreation with , RUSSIA where is your LCA stands now?
but, as for us, you can see , our friendship with GREAT CHINA growing in the form of THUNDER , s in the skies , at least not on the 10 wheelrs, OUR MCBMS, & N-BOMB , which are infact, targting every Major militry installations of "SLUMP super INDIA" is more, thn a proove , which cant be seen by a INDIAN eye & infact its too NATURAL.

 

[gaurysh]

I guss, you are missing something HERE, with more thn 50 years defence co-opreation with , RUSSIA where is your LCA stands now?
but, as for us, you can see , our friendship with GREAT CHINA growing in the form of THUNDER , s in the skies , at least not on the 10 wheelrs, OUR MCBMS, & N-BOMB , which are infact, targting every Major militry installations of "SLUMP super INDIA" is more, thn a proove , which cant be seen by a INDIAN eye & infact its too NATURAL.

Dont go over the moon buddy the result joint venture between China and Pakistan is a peice of crap, on one hand China is joint venturing with you on other hand its hand its purchasing more and more sukhois from russia, If your jointly devoloped JF17 and J10 is so great why cant china rely solely on them. the fact is JF 17 is just a crap which is cheap so PAF is going for it