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More than 600 million Indians don't have cards. So how can the country ban cash?

You do realize that just like Payment Banking, even demonetization was a move done by the RBI. Any such move in finance is done by the RBI. Modi is merely the face of demonetization, the people who planned it were civil servants, not politicians.

Vodafone's M-Pesa started all the way back in 2013.

Oh I know the order quite well. RBI board meets, they pass the resolution recommending demonitization, it then goes to the govt, cabinets approves it and then PM comes on TV and announces it. But in reality both you and I know how it must have worked out. There had to be one more step before RBI board meeting, an unofficial advisory from the PM. Rajan wouldn't let it through, so he was sacked, most likely.

You are right about the mismatch between the govt's demonetization and the increased advertisement of digital payments,

There was no mismatch, because the govt hadn't thought of linking demonitization with digital payments until they realized that nearly all of the old currencies were coming back. That's when they needed another track.

they should have made available the Payment Banking system a year earlier. But I don't see why they are not interrelated. Basically, RBI planned demonetization and payment banking. Where they failed was advertising payment banking, which fell on Modi's shoulders.

RBI did not plan demonitization. They were told to pass it and with newly appointed Modi's yes man Urjit Patel in charge there was no way they could have stopped it.


Also I wouldn't compare us with China, it is better to compare India's new schemes to Kenya where more than 70% of the population uses digital currency because of payment banks.

I would have thought China would be a better comparison because we have a similar population and we are in a similar situation economically as they were 15 years ago. Keyna has 1/28th of our population. US has 45% digital transactions after a half century old tradition of credit cards. Anyone who thinks that we will dramatically increase our share in a couple of years is not being very practical. Quote me on this later. As soon as people get their hands on money in the next 3-4 months, we would be back to square one. I would be surprised if the volume of digital transactions grows beyond 3-4%.max. And again, to promote digital transaction you don't need to put the country through this.
 
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Oh I know the order quite well. RBI board meets, they pass the resolution recommending demonitization, it then goes to the govt, cabinets approves it and then PM comes on TV and announces it. But in reality both you and I know how it must have worked out. There had to be one more step before RBI board meeting, an unofficial advisory from the PM. Rajan wouldn't let it through, so he was sacked, most likely.

Demonetization has been in the works for over 10 months.

There was no mismatch, because the govt hadn't thought of linking demonitization with digital payments until they realized that nearly all of the old currencies were coming back. That's when they needed another track.

I still don't see a relation. I think the digital move was made after they realized that not enough new notes will be printed. Nothing to do with the remaining money coming back.

The thing about the remaining money is, it won't matter if all of it comes back. The banks will go back in the black. Regardless, quite a bit of money won't come back, that's for sure. So you are jumping to conclusions way too quickly.

RBI did not plan demonitization. They were told to pass it and with newly appointed Modi's yes man Urjit Patel in charge there was no way they could have stopped it.

Source?

I would have thought China would be a better comparison because we have a similar population and we are in a similar situation economically as they were 15 years ago. Keyna has 1/28th of our population. US has 45% digital transactions after a half century old tradition of credit cards. Anyone who thinks that we will dramatically increase our share in a couple of years is not being very practical. Quote me on this later. As soon as people get their hands on money in the next 3-4 months, we would be back to square one. I would be surprised if the volume of digital transactions grows beyond 3-4%.max. And again, to promote digital transaction you don't need to put the country through this.

Their financial systems are still regulated. Kenya is a better comparison because what's most important, the mobile phone payments, has been deregulated. The population doesn't matter, policy matters more. Hence Kenya. If a hopelessly poor country like Kenya is able to capture even BPL individuals into their mobile payments system, then it works.

15 years ago, China did not have 1 billion mobile phone connections. They achieved it only in 2012, so that's a huge advantage for India.

By the way, the govt is planning on restricting cash transactions. If you can afford to buy a car, you are able to give a cheque or debit card also. They will also most likely make electronic payments of salaries compulsory.

Demonetization wasn't done to make the country go cashless. I think you are coming to the wrong conclusions. Digital is just getting more media exposure because of Modi's speech when it was always planned to be implemented. This is the reason why I tell people to wait for the govt's next move after the 31st.
 
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Demonetization has been in the works for over 10 months.

Oh really? I wonder what might have gone into such strenuous effort considering the mess that was unleashed. They did not print replacement notes, did not calibrate even a single ATM machine for the resized notes, there were design issues with new notes, there was no clarity of rules and so on..... What exactly did they do for 10 months?


I think the digital move was made after they realized that not enough new notes will be printed.

How come they did not see it in their 10 month long preparation? Did they forget to do basic middle school math?

Also I did say severe cash crunch as one of the two reasons for this digital hype in my previous post. So you are right here.


Nothing to do with the remaining money coming back.

Destruction of "presumed" hidden stashes of black money was the #1 reason of this exercise. Modi's speech on 8th Nov made it very clear. They had to change the narrative after black money failed to show up in a big scale and hence the dramatic surge in digital money PR.

The thing about the remaining money is, it won't matter if all of it comes back. The banks will go back in the black. Regardless, quite a bit of money won't come back, that's for sure. So you are jumping to conclusions way too quickly.

I am quite positive that if you subtract the cost of this whole operation, at best it will be no gain no loss situation, monetarily. And that's without considering this 2 month long (maybe even more) human suffering.

And it absolutely does matter how much old currency comes back. If there is no substantial black money to show for after all this then the primary objective would have failed. You can not restrict people from taking out their cash indefinitely. otherwise people's basic faith in the baking system would diminish (it would be illegal too I think). So when there is enough cash in the banks in the next 3-6 months, people would take out their money, and go back to their usual selves. As I said before, the govt has to show by example by tackling political corruption first and clean up the political contribution and campaign financing system. That is a vital linking point in the supply-demand chain of black money. Without that I don't see any substantial change.


Just join the dots. Rajan was RBI's head till early September. I think it is safe to say that he wasn't in favor of this (which also debunks the 10 month long preparation theory), otherwise he would have gotten an extension and would have overseen this operation. With that information in hand, do you seriously think that RBI would independently come up with this mammoth decision in less than 2 months and that too knowing the kind of chaos it would ensue? Have they even done any studies on it? Only political leaders take such whimsical decisions, bankers don't.

Their financial systems are still regulated. Kenya is a better comparison because what's most important, the mobile phone payments, has been deregulated. The population doesn't matter, policy matters more. Hence Kenya. If a hopelessly poor country like Kenya is able to capture even BPL individuals into their mobile payments system, then it works.

15 years ago, China did not have 1 billion mobile phone connections. They achieved it only in 2012, so that's a huge advantage for India.

So how has that worked out for Kenya? Last time I checked they are still one of the most corrupt countries in the world (far worse than India). You have to remember there are mainly two types of black money in circulation. 1) tax evasion on genuine earnings (like doctors, lawyers etc), 2) illegitimate earnings (bribe etc). No matter how much you advertise digital transactions, these two things would still go on as it is as soon as there is enough cash in the market. You may be able to marginally increase tax revenues from digital transactions but the big players would still be out of the loop.

By the way, the govt is planning on restricting cash transactions. If you can afford to buy a car, you are able to give a cheque or debit card also. They will also most likely make electronic payments of salaries compulsory.

Most people who work in the formal sectors of the economy and are on proper payrolls get their salary deposited in the their accounts even now and even if someone gets cash, it is accounted for. However nearly 80% of the work force in the country work in the informal sector where there is no record, no written contract. When you don't have a record of their employment you can't force anything. For example, how would you force me to pay my maid digitally if I don't want to?

As for restricting higher cash transactions, it was already in the news (over 3 lakh) before demonitization. It would be a good step imo.

Demonetization wasn't done to make the country go cashless.

Isn't that what I have been saying? That was not their objective and rightly so.

Digital is just getting more media exposure because of Modi's speech when it was always planned to be implemented.

No. It is getting media exposure because that is all the govt has been talking about since late Nov. All ministers, PIB, Niti ayog and all departments have been instructed to advertise cashless transactions non stop. Of course it would get media exposure. That is what the govt wants, to blur the lines between demonitization and digital transactions in people's mind. Very few actually analyze these issues as closely as some of us do.


This is the reason why I tell people to wait for the govt's next move after the 31st.

Fair enough.
 
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Oh really? I wonder what might have gone into such strenuous effort considering the mess that was unleashed. They did not print replacement notes, did not calibrate even a single ATM machine for the resized notes, there were design issues with new notes, there was no clarity of rules and so on..... What exactly did they do for 10 months?

How come they did not see it in their 10 month long preparation? Did they forget to do basic middle school math?

Most likely the need for secrecy prevented them from making the system better.

Destruction of "presumed" hidden stashes of black money was the #1 reason of this exercise. Modi's speech on 8th Nov made it very clear. They had to change the narrative after black money failed to show up in a big scale and hence the dramatic surge in digital money PR.

Don't go by just speeches to determine all the moves the govt has planned.

Black money isn't just cash, you are talking about black cash. The fight against black money is yet to start. Demonetization is only to flush black cash out of the system. Let's see how the Benami Property law is first.

I am quite positive that if you subtract the cost of this whole operation, at best it will be no gain no loss situation, monetarily. And that's without considering this 2 month long (maybe even more) human suffering.

Banks can increase the value of deposits considerably because of lending policies.

Even if no black money is found, the banks now have the kind of cash necessary to kick start the economy.

And it absolutely does matter how much old currency comes back. If there is no substantial black money to show for after all this then the primary objective would have failed. You can not restrict people from taking out their cash indefinitely. otherwise people's basic faith in the baking system would diminish (it would be illegal too I think). So when there is enough cash in the banks in the next 3-6 months, people would take out their money, and go back to their usual selves. As I said before, the govt has to show by example by tackling political corruption first and clean up the political contribution and campaign financing system. That is a vital linking point in the supply-demand chain of black money. Without that I don't see any substantial change.

Black cash, not black money.

From what I've heard, Modi is going to have the entire population register their properties with the central govt. And the people will have to prove that their income matches the property value at the time of purchase. Any property outside means of income will see penalties, maybe even a jail term for tax evasion. Any property not registered will be confiscated.

Just join the dots. Rajan was RBI's head till early September. I think it is safe to say that he wasn't in favor of this (which also debunks the 10 month long preparation theory), otherwise he would have gotten an extension and would have overseen this operation. With that information in hand, do you seriously think that RBI would independently come up with this mammoth decision in less than 2 months and that too knowing the kind of chaos it would ensue? Have they even done any studies on it? Only political leaders take such whimsical decisions, bankers don't.

I'm pretty sure Rajan was involved when it was proposed. And that he quit when he didn't want to go through with it.

So how has that worked out for Kenya? Last time I checked they are still one of the most corrupt countries in the world (far worse than India).

Kenya is still a third world African country with less capable institutions. If it were not for the payment banking system, Kenya's people would have been worse off. So imagine how much good this system can do in India when it is properly monitored.

You have to remember there are mainly two types of black money in circulation. 1) tax evasion on genuine earnings (like doctors, lawyers etc), 2) illegitimate earnings (bribe etc). No matter how much you advertise digital transactions, these two things would still go on as it is as soon as there is enough cash in the market. You may be able to marginally increase tax revenues from digital transactions but the big players would still be out of the loop.

I pointed out that there may be cash transaction restrictions imposed. What's the point of hoarding cash if you can't buy gold, vehicles or real estate with it? At best you can keep them as show pieces.

Most people who work in the formal sectors of the economy and are on proper payrolls get their salary deposited in the their accounts even now and even if someone gets cash, it is accounted for. However nearly 80% of the work force in the country work in the informal sector where there is no record, no written contract. When you don't have a record of their employment you can't force anything. For example, how would you force me to pay my maid digitally if I don't want to?

The maid can complain.

It works like this...
1. If you are giving her minimum wage as prescribed by the govt, she won't complain.
2. If you are not, she will.

As for you, you can either decide to keep it off the books and evade taxes or not, ie, if there are no whistleblowers or complainers. But the point of this exercise is, you need to pay your workers at least minimum wage and not cheat them. It's a pro-poor, anti-exploitation move, not a pro-govt move. And this move is for employers who employ a lot of people, not just one or two maids and such.

As for restricting higher cash transactions, it was already in the news (over 3 lakh) before demonitization. It would be a good step imo.

This plays a pretty important role. The formal sector will be forced to follow it. And it will prevent the creation of black cash.

Isn't that what I have been saying? That was not their objective and rightly so.

The point is I disagreed with your assertion saying Modi's speech was a face-saving measure. The fact is he was honest. He even pointed out that cash circulation will not normalize by the 30th and that it will normalize 'slowly, slowly'. Hearing the truth for a change is good.

No. It is getting media exposure because that is all the govt has been talking about since late Nov. All ministers, PIB, Niti ayog and all departments have been instructed to advertise cashless transactions non stop. Of course it would get media exposure. That is what the govt wants, to blur the lines between demonitization and digital transactions in people's mind. Very few actually analyze these issues as closely as some of us do.

I think these two schemes have incidentally happened at the same time. The govt should have implemented the digital payments system early during Rajan's time, so even rural people would have been more aware of alternatives. RBI took too long to deregulate the payments system and telecom companies were too late in its implementation. For example, RBI could have announced a 1L cap for old notes on mobile payment banks, that way people would have had the money for day to day transactions, without causing significant disruptions in economic activities in rural areas.

A major point is people were in too much of a hurry to dispose the old notes. They should have waited for a few weeks, or they should have deposited the notes in installments. I mean, Modi gave them 50 days. What the govt made clear is they will check deposits and match them to their incomes. Those whose businesses were legal or too small should have continued taking the old notes and deposit them in their own accounts, I mean, that's common sense. All these businesses are so small that their deposits would barely register. Any significant increase in their accounts, like the Jan Lokpal accounts could have raised flags and the hoarders can get caught easily.

I don't think anybody disagrees that the move could have been better. But I like Modi's way of facing hurdles. Let's say that the govt has a plan to make major changes after the demonetization, it worked, the public is happy, and the public would forget the demonetization woes after a few months anyway. Any other govt would have ridden out the storm and waited to implement their next step. But Modi came out to reassure the public about the delay in achieving normalcy and talked about alternatives, which damaged his image. We don't have these kinds of leaders in any field, forget politics. In fact, history has rarely seen a leader who would shoot his own foot for the good of his charge.
 
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Most likely the need for secrecy prevented them from making the system better.



Don't go by just speeches to determine all the moves the govt has planned.

Black money isn't just cash, you are talking about black cash. The fight against black money is yet to start. Demonetization is only to flush black cash out of the system. Let's see how the Benami Property law is first.



Banks can increase the value of deposits considerably because of lending policies.

Even if no black money is found, the banks now have the kind of cash necessary to kick start the economy.



Black cash, not black money.

From what I've heard, Modi is going to have the entire population register their properties with the central govt. And the people will have to prove that their income matches the property value at the time of purchase. Any property outside means of income will see penalties, maybe even a jail term for tax evasion. Any property not registered will be confiscated.



I'm pretty sure Rajan was involved when it was proposed. And that he quit when he didn't want to go through with it.



Kenya is still a third world African country with less capable institutions. If it were not for the payment banking system, Kenya's people would have been worse off. So imagine how much good this system can do in India when it is properly monitored.



I pointed out that there may be cash transaction restrictions imposed. What's the point of hoarding cash if you can't buy gold, vehicles or real estate with it? At best you can keep them as show pieces.



The maid can complain.

It works like this...
1. If you are giving her minimum wage as prescribed by the govt, she won't complain.
2. If you are not, she will.

As for you, you can either decide to keep it off the books and evade taxes or not, ie, if there are no whistleblowers or complainers. But the point of this exercise is, you need to pay your workers at least minimum wage and not cheat them. It's a pro-poor, anti-exploitation move, not a pro-govt move. And this move is for employers who employ a lot of people, not just one or two maids and such.



This plays a pretty important role. The formal sector will be forced to follow it. And it will prevent the creation of black cash.



The point is I disagreed with your assertion saying Modi's speech was a face-saving measure. The fact is he was honest. He even pointed out that cash circulation will not normalize by the 30th and that it will normalize 'slowly, slowly'. Hearing the truth for a change is good.



I think these two schemes have incidentally happened at the same time. The govt should have implemented the digital payments system early during Rajan's time, so even rural people would have been more aware of alternatives. RBI took too long to deregulate the payments system and telecom companies were too late in its implementation. For example, RBI could have announced a 1L cap for old notes on mobile payment banks, that way people would have had the money for day to day transactions, without causing significant disruptions in economic activities in rural areas.

A major point is people were in too much of a hurry to dispose the old notes. They should have waited for a few weeks, or they should have deposited the notes in installments. I mean, Modi gave them 50 days. What the govt made clear is they will check deposits and match them to their incomes. Those whose businesses were legal or too small should have continued taking the old notes and deposit them in their own accounts, I mean, that's common sense. All these businesses are so small that their deposits would barely register. Any significant increase in their accounts, like the Jan Lokpal accounts could have raised flags and the hoarders can get caught easily.

I don't think anybody disagrees that the move could have been better. But I like Modi's way of facing hurdles. Let's say that the govt has a plan to make major changes after the demonetization, it worked, the public is happy, and the public would forget the demonetization woes after a few months anyway. Any other govt would have ridden out the storm and waited to implement their next step. But Modi came out to reassure the public about the delay in achieving normalcy and talked about alternatives, which damaged his image. We don't have these kinds of leaders in any field, forget politics. In fact, history has rarely seen a leader who would shoot his own foot for the good of his charge.


Just as I told you a month ago, Govt "advises" RBI on Nov 7 and they approve it on Nov 8. This is what you get by placing a puppet as RBI governor, no wonder Rajan did not want to be a part of this circus.

http://indianexpress.com/article/bu...got-rbi-nod-the-next-day-rajya-sabha-4467235/
 
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Kenya is still a third world African country with less capable institutions. If it were not for the payment banking system, Kenya's people would have been worse off. So imagine how much good this system can do in India when it is properly monitored.

Um, aren't we all "third-world developing countries" here?

Anyway, the demonetization crisis caused Modi (in a desperate panic) to waive ALL duties on Chinese imports of ATM machine parts, Point-of-Sale machines, and all related electronics and machinery. Leading to a massive spike in India's already enormous trade deficit to China.

So, long live Modi. :cheers: If he wants more ATM machine parts and electronics, we can ship them on a priority basis. Too much chaos in India is not profitable.
 
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Misleading title , When did the country ban Cash ?

The very next day after the bandi , I was able to Buy Chips , Biscuits , Milk and Fruits with cash .
India should move towards Less Cash society .

Those who are Rich and Middle class should move in that direction instead of Crying .
With economic development and innovation , Poorer section will also be brought under it .
 
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Just as I told you a month ago, Govt "advises" RBI on Nov 7 and they approve it on Nov 8. This is what you get by placing a puppet as RBI governor, no wonder Rajan did not want to be a part of this circus.

http://indianexpress.com/article/bu...got-rbi-nod-the-next-day-rajya-sabha-4467235/

If the decision was taken on Nov 7th, then I doubt Rajan was involved in any capacity.

Plus, the article says there was only 94k Cr of 2000 notes, while an earlier RTI said RBI had 4LC in 2000s.

Anyway, I doubt this 'advised' thing gives the entire picture. If Rajan was involved, it obviously predates September.

Personally, I think they debated this since a long time, then Rajan left. Obviously RBI recommended demonetization and the 'approval' from the Cabinet came on 7th Nov.

By 2020 Cards , ATMS will no longer exist

ATMs will become redundant. That doesn't mean they will cease to exist.

But if this BHIM thing works out, then it is possible.
 
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