Model for Pakistan's Economy

[AhsanAmin]

Though this post is not directly relevant to Pakistan's economy. I am still posting it here, for inspiration.

Less than four years after passing Japan for second largest economy, China will have double Japan's GDP bu mid-2014

 

[FaujHistorian]

Japan's population is in similar range as Pakistan.

Japan has really little natural resources and yet they are world power.

What gives.


on topic.

Both China and Japan are very good examples for Pakistan

We too can be as prosperous as them as soon as we start working hard as service providers for the rich Western countries.

peace

 

[Chronos]

Japan's population is in similar range as Pakistan.

Japan has really little natural resources and yet they are world power.

What gives.


on topic.

Both China and Japan are very good examples for Pakistan

We too can be as prosperous as them as soon as we start working hard as service providers for the rich Western countries.

peace

That is because Japan has developed the most important resource that a country can have. It's people.

Japanese and German engineering are hallmarks of their societies and their biggest economic drivers. They achieved this through discipline, scientific drive and a highly educated population

 

[FaujHistorian]

That is because Japan has developed the most important resource that a country can have. It's people.

Japanese and German engineering are hallmarks of their societies and their biggest economic drivers. They achieved this through discipline, scientific drive and a highly educated population

Good point Ravi Ji, good point.

Just remember in this debate

1. People of a country must be willing nay eager to learn
2. Government/society then must teach these eager beavers.


Just remember your class in the school

Say if there were 40 students in the class.

I bet there was a group of students who was willing and came prepared to learn. The teacher and school was happy to have them.


But then there were some students who came to the class to sleep, absolutely unwilling to learn a single damn thing no matter how hard the teacher tries.



nations are like that too.


For us Pakistanis, we are fortunate to have different types of "fellow students" in our "mohalla".

These fellow "students" include China, India, Afghanistan, and Iran.

Thus it was and it is upto us to learn from and even copy the habits of anyone of these.


China being the MOST successful was supposed to be the most preferred role model for us.

Afghanistan being the LEAST successful was supposed be the LEAST preferred role model for us

Iran being under MOST sanctions was supposed to be the LEAST preferred role model for us

India being next door and having made huge changes in the last 20 years was supposed to be a role model after China.

But No

No forking NO

We as a nation are aping Iranians and Afghanistanis while claiming to have "friendship" with China that is higher than Himalaya and deeper than Indian ocean.

Fraud!

utter deception.

We as a nation do not want to be like Japanese or Chinese, we just want to get free goodies from them while aping pathetic Iranians and Afghanistanis.

This hypocrisy among our educated elite has stopped any kind development let alone the development of human capital.

Sadly!

hope you see the real root cause here. It is not the government, it is our Islamist and marxist educated elite who would rather ape North Koreans rather than learning from South Koreans.


Peace

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Pakistan has the 6th largest population in the world, with abundant resources, and a highly intelligent populace. Their potential is enormous, but is held back by a broken economic and administrative system.

I knew a few Pakistanis when I was growing up in Hong Kong (I went to an International School) and my impression was that they were exceedingly intelligent people.

There is zero reason why Pakistan should be left behind in the development game, the potential of the Pakistani people is very easy to see.

Reforms are necessary. Pakistan needs their own Deng Xiaoping.

Any "vested interests" who try to hold back reforms and development must be confronted and defeated. Deng Xiaoping himself was purged twice during the Cultural revolution, and his own son was thrown out of the window by Red guards. But still he fought to reform China.

Nothing good ever comes easy. But one must never give up fighting to improve their own country.

 

[kbd-raaf]

IMHO, Pakistan's model should be South Korea.

Pakistan has the 6th largest population in the world, with abundant resources, and a highly intelligent populace. Their potential is enormous, but is held back by a broken economic and administrative system.
I knew a few Pakistanis when I was growing up in Hong Kong (I went to an International School) and my impression was that they were exceedingly intelligent people.
There is zero reason why Pakistan should be left behind in the development game, the potential of the Pakistani people is very easy to see.
Reforms are necessary. Pakistan needs their own Deng Xiaoping.
Any "vested interests" who try to hold back reforms and development must be confronted and defeated. Deng Xiaoping himself was purged twice during the Cultural revolution, and his own son was thrown out of the window by Red guards.
Nothing good ever comes easy. But one must never give up fighting to improve their own country.

Deng Xiaoping and Lee Yuan Kew are the two people I revere the most. I hope one day Narendra Modi is fit to sit with such people.

Mate every single country has immense potential. I know a Nigerian at uni, barely speaks English but his grasp on the Economic sciences is amazing, but yet his country is so backwards. I know quite a few Pakistanis too and by and large they too are quite intelligent. Indians and Chinese of course are exemplary in every foreign country.

But why has China been able to leverage it's people, while the other countries have not? It's quite simple, leadership.

Say what you would like about the CCP, but their leadership and vision for an Asian century has been what has taken China to where it is now.

In India, we have one man who is capable of the same. If he doesn't win this election then I will give up hope for India. People like Deng, Lee and NaMo come about once every generation. @Ravi Nair quite aptly put it, "India is like that guy you knew in college, who had occasions of brilliance but mostly smoked weed all day, when you meet him at age 40 you are amazed he is still alive".

In Pakistan, I don't know if there is any potential for leadership like that. I suppose that is why many Pakistanis yearn for military rule. The military in Pakistan are inherently are far more decisive than the civilian leadership.

Pakistan was an economic tiger in the 60s-80s, a challenger to South Korea. What's changed since then?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Pakistan has the 6th largest population in the world, with abundant resources, and a highly intelligent populace. Their potential is enormous, but is held back by a broken economic and administrative system.

I knew a few Pakistanis when I was growing up in Hong Kong (I went to an International School) and my impression was that they were exceedingly intelligent people.

There is zero reason why Pakistan should be left behind in the development game, the potential of the Pakistani people is very easy to see.

Reforms are necessary. Pakistan needs their own Deng Xiaoping.

Any "vested interests" who try to hold back reforms and development must be confronted and defeated. Deng Xiaoping himself was purged twice during the Cultural revolution, and his own son was thrown out of the window by Red guards.

Nothing good ever comes easy. But one must never give up fighting to improve their own country.

Great thoughts!

Thank you


Just keep in mind a perfect case study with perfect controls.

North vs. South Korea.

Same language, similar history, and culture.

Yet one is basket case dip$hit aka South Korea

and the other is the world soooper dooooper power aka North Korea

This is why Pakistani educated elite want to ape North Korea, to be progressive and open society with justice and democracy all lumped into one great giant @rsewipe kim kim kimchi.

And

hence our dire economic situation.


Hope you understand.

my bro

hope you understand.

here is no real secret to development

you develop just like your role model, your idol


In our educated class, we have our idols like North Korea and Iranian Ayatullahs.

So we are sanctioned and we prosper just like those baffoons.

 

[Chronos]

@Ravi Nair quite aptly put it, "India is like that guy you knew in college, who had occasions of brilliance but mostly smoked weed all day, when you meet him at age 40 you are amazed he is still alive".

I came up with that quote because it describes me. Serial underachiever.

But then there were some students who came to the class to sleep, absolutely unwilling to learn a single damn thing no matter how hard the teacher tries.




India being next door and having made huge changes in the last 20 years was supposed to be a role model after China.



Peace

India is a model. On how to not be a wasted potential. On how to choke your countries entrepreneurial, economic, scientific and creative drive by bureaucratic, social, religious, political chains.

 

[AUz]

Japan's population is in similar range as Pakistan.

Japan has really little natural resources and yet they are world power.

What gives.


on topic.

Both China and Japan are very good examples for Pakistan

We too can be as prosperous as them as soon as we start working hard as service providers for the rich Western countries.

peace

I never understood this mantra of yours.

Pakistan has trade relations with EU and America...what do you want more?

Pakistan's biggest trading partner is America...what more?

Unlike other empires, most Islamic empires of the past were, what you call today, "proto-capitalists"...Free Market economy is part of Islam..I don't know of any other religion which has free-market economy at its core...Remember Prophet's advice to Muslims? "The best occupation for Muslims is business and trade"

Founder of Islam was himself a trader...most Arabs NEVER lived under a 'command' economy but were mainly traders, herders, or owners of their own businesses.

Abbasid Caliphate had established trade networks stretching from Sweden (Northern Europe) all the way to China and South East Asia.

In Sweden, 70,000 Islamic coins have been found by researchers in recent years...tells you how extensive the trade-network was of Abbasids..

Islamic Coin Hoards and the Trade Routes: How Dirham Reached the North | Aram Vardanyan - Academia.edu

The main point of writing all of this is to urge you to explain to me "what" exactly is wrong today with so-called "Islamist-socialist" Pakistani economic policies that you ALWAYS bring up in every economics-related thread? If you ask me, there are fundamental problems with Pakistan's economic road..lack of efficiency, tax net needs to be broaden, land reforms are required, feu'dalism needs to be eradicated in a "radical" fashion....separation of 'politics' and 'economics' is required..radical and smart laws and their implementation to crack down on corruption...and alot more things are required... But I don't see how Pakistan is adapting 'socialist' policies and is not doing trade with "west" just because they are "west" and our elite are so-called "islamists-socialists" blah blah....

Historically, free-market was always part of Islam unlike any other religion. We never had "popes" or kings ruling by "divine-right" ...as I already said, heck, the very founder of Islam was a trader and described commerce and trade as the "best" occupation for believers.

Even today, most countries of Islamosphere are free-market economics...though flawed and inefficient...but Pakistan's socialist policies? I don't see how

 

[AUz]

@FaujHistorian Waiting...

 

[UKBengali]

China has 10 times the population of Japan so this should not come as a surprise.

The day China has 10 times the GDP of Japan will be the day it becomes the sole hegemon on this planet

 

[FaujHistorian]

I never understood this mantra of yours.

Pakistan has trade relations with EU and America...what do you want more?

Pakistan's biggest trading partner is America...what more?

Unlike other empires, most Islamic empires of the past were, what you call today, "proto-capitalists"...Free Market economy is part of Islam..I don't know of any other religion which has free-market economy at its core...Remember Prophet's advice to Muslims? "The best occupation for Muslims is business and trade"

Founder of Islam was himself a trader...most Arabs NEVER lived under a 'command' economy but were mainly traders, herders, or owners of their own businesses.

Abbasid Caliphate had established trade networks stretching from Sweden (Northern Europe) all the way to China and South East Asia.

In Sweden, 70,000 Islamic coins have been found by researchers in recent years...tells you how extensive the trade-network was of Abbasids..

Islamic Coin Hoards and the Trade Routes: How Dirham Reached the North | Aram Vardanyan - Academia.edu

The main point of writing all of this is to urge you to explain to me "what" exactly is wrong today with so-called "Islamist-socialist" Pakistani economic policies that you ALWAYS bring up in every economics-related thread? If you ask me, there are fundamental problems with Pakistan's economic road..lack of efficiency, tax net needs to be broaden, land reforms are required, feu'dalism needs to be eradicated in a "radical" fashion....separation of 'politics' and 'economics' is required..radical and smart laws and their implementation to crack down on corruption...and alot more things are required... But I don't see how Pakistan is adapting 'socialist' policies and is not doing trade with "west" just because they are "west" and our elite are so-called "islamists-socialists" blah blah....

Historically, free-market was always part of Islam unlike any other religion. We never had "popes" or kings ruling by "divine-right" ...as I already said, heck, the very founder of Islam was a trader and described commerce and trade as the "best" occupation for believers.

Even today, most countries of Islamosphere are free-market economics...though flawed and inefficient...but Pakistan's socialist policies? I don't see how

The problem with your argument is simple.

When we are discussing 2014 Islamist $hit

you bring in medieval time stories.

Even though you know full well, that current day behavior of Islamists and mraxists cannot be helped by talking about the past. And if you strongly feel that it can help, then go try to convince the Islamo-socialist crowd. Tell them that Usman rah was allowed to accumulate unlimited wealth, so we should not hunt down 22-families either.

Try to convince the rabid marxists and Islamists. Please!

Not me!

Hope you understand.


Different times different conditions different stories.


Thank you

 

[AUz]

The problem with your argument is simple.

When we are discussing 2014 Islamist $hit

you bring in medieval time stories.

Even though you know full well, that current day behavior of Islamists and mraxists cannot be helped by talking about the past. And if you strongly feel that it can help, then go try to convince the Islamo-socialist crowd. Tell them that Usman rah was allowed to accumulate unlimited wealth, so we should not hunt down 22-families either.

Try to convince the rabid marxists and Islamists. Please!

Not me!

Hope you understand.


Different times different conditions different stories.


Thank you

I'm not bringing in any Medieval times. Nor I'm one of those retards who think that modern nation state can be modeled on Hazrat Umar's rule. You can get inspired from the past, but you can not recreate it. I'm sophisticated enough in political science to know that.

My contention was to show you that historically, Free-market has been the game for Islamic World....Muslims don't have any problem with free-market..never had one. Today, you claim that there are Islamist-Marxist elite in Islamic World. I don't see any. Can you "pinpoint" what "exactly" you are talking about? Can you explain your point of view more clearly?

How exactly are Muslim elites today "Islamist-Marxist"? What are the economic policies of Pakistan that are wrong and marxist-Islamist? Can you be precise? I'm just trying to under your point.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I'm not bringing in any Medieval times. Nor I'm one of those retards who think that modern nation state can be modeled on Hazrat Umar's rule. You can get inspired from the past, but you can not recreate it. I'm sophisticated enough in political science to know that.

My contention was to show you that historically, Free-market has been the game for Islamic World....Muslims don't have any problem with free-market..never had one. Today, you claim that there are Islamist-Marxist elite in Islamic World. I don't see any. Can you "pinpoint" what "exactly" you are talking about? Can you explain your point of view more clearly?

How exactly are Muslim elites today "Islamist-Marxist"? What are the economic policies of Pakistan that are wrong and marxist-Islamist? Can you be precise? I'm just trying to under your point.

In medieval times every government collected a portion from the traders. Islamist followed the same rules. they didn't invent any new ones.


However back then, things were much simpler and primitive.

Now the governments and societies have sophisticated tools to control the flow of cash, goods and services.

This is why I urge you not to bring in Abbasis. That's like comparing a donkey cart to a bullet train.

Yeah they both are transport vehicles but that's where the similarities end.



So coming back to the modern day governments and societies

And the way you use sophisticated tools to control the flow of people, goods and services.


If a society is open, and least resistant "within its borders" to flow of people, goods, and services, then we can call it "free" in relative terms.

If a society is moribund, as it punishes restaurants just because a Mullah wants to fast, all in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".


If a society is moribund, as it puts too many restrictions nay hunts down tourists, international and local businessmen, products and goods in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".


If a society is moribund, as it puts too many taxes on essential things like petrol, electricity, and gas in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".

If a society is moribund, as it hunts down its top businessmen (aka 22 families) in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".


These are general level points. One perhaps will need a separate threads to discuss each of these issues in full detail.

As I said earlier, such discussions are based on relative freedom and relative restrictions.

So it won't help if you start arguing that "fulana fulana state is doing such and such so why not call it marxists or Islamist".


Thank you

 

[AUz]

In medieval times every government collected a portion from the traders. Islamist followed the same rules. they didn't invent any new ones.


However back then, things were much simpler and primitive.

Now the governments and societies have sophisticated tools to control the flow of cash, goods and services.

This is why I urge you not to bring in Abbasis. That's like comparing a donkey cart to a bullet train.

Yeah they both are transport vehicles but that's where the similarities end.



So coming back to the modern day governments and societies

And the way you use sophisticated tools to control the flow of people, goods and services.

If a society is open, and least resistant "within its borders" to flow of people, goods, and services, then we can call it "free" in relative terms.

If a society is moribund, as it punishes restaurants just because a Mullah wants to fast, all in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".

If a society is moribund, as it puts too many restrictions nay hunts down tourists, international and local businessmen, products and goods in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".

If a society is moribund, as it puts too many taxes on essential things like petrol, electricity, and gas in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".

If a society is moribund, as it hunts down its top businessmen (aka 22 families) in the name of Islam, or in the name of marxist welfare state, then obviously it is no longer "free".


These are general level points. One perhaps will need a separate threads to discuss each of these issues in full detail.

As I said earlier, such discussions are based on relative freedom and relative restrictions.

So it won't help if you start arguing that "fulana fulana state is doing such and such so why not call it marxists or Islamist".


Thank you

I don't know man what you talk about....Peace out.