MiG-29 Fulcrum, Russia

[blain2]

I think RD-93 was the one to power the initial batch of the JF-17 until WS-13 gets the clearence. However i did also read about a possible development of an RD-93b which was suppose to be completely smoke free and with 10% more thrust. However this is not confirmed.

Yes I have only read posts about RD-93B. Not sure if there is something like this in the works.

BTW, a question for the Indians on the board, how is the smoke issue on the IAF Mig-29s? Is it noticeable?

 

[TexasJohn]

Guys,

I might have answered my own question.

RD-93
A variant use to power the JF-17 / FC-1. According to JF-17.com "The most significant difference being the repositioning of the gearbox along the bottom of the engine casing."

Looks like the RD-93a is JF-17 specific due to the gearbox position. They are only supplying 150 of them. Hope the WS-13 comes to production soon, or....

 

[su-47]

I dont know why have the indians neglected this jet when it came to their MRCA requirements.

who said india has neglected it? its still the frontrunner in MRCA, especially after the russians displayed the Zhuk-ME AESA radar and improved smokeless engine.

its some of the members here, including me, who said that MiG-35 shouldnt be chosen. Its the opinion of indian members in the forum, not of the indian high command

 

[KENT]

Its such a beauti. Just look at it. With the improved features such as the digital fly by wire, reduced rcs, improved smokeless engines with optional TVC, the multi purpose active phased array radar it can compete with any modern fighter jet of the 4.5th generation. Moreover the one problem that seemed to continue with the russians jets were its lower MTBO and more flight hour cost even with the MKI's. This has been taken care of in this version improving everything from Airframe lifespan to increased MTBO.
I dont know why have the indians neglected this jet when it came to their MRCA requirements.

The thing is that we need multirole aircraft unlike pure BVR jets in which Mig-35 is known to be versatile. According to IAF user requirement it cant fulfill the role of versatile Air to ground platform, no matter who russians have modified it with 5th generation features still it is no where close to air to ground role like F/A-18 have. It is still close cousin of our Mig-29SMT. Moreover we already have ordered its another close cousin Mig-29K, if IN get fulfill with this platform in Naval role then chances are we will order more such MIG-29s

 

[KENT]

Yes I have only read posts about RD-93B. Not sure if there is something like this in the works.

BTW, a question for the Indians on the board, how is the smoke issue on the IAF Mig-29s? Is it noticeable?

HAL's has been overhauling the RD-33 since 1997 and till 2004 has it also manage to increase lifespan of RDs by 1000 hours

In 2005, India got the license from Russia to built 120 RD-33MK Sea Wasp engine at $ 250 million which is eventually meet for both upgradation of present Mig-29 fleet as well as incoming Naval Mig-29K. So I can readily admit that smoke issue of IAF's Mig-29 has now become the things of past.

 

[blain2]

HAL's has been overhauling the RD-33 since 1997 and till 2004 has it also manage to increase lifespan of RDs by 1000 hours

In 2005, India got the license from Russia to built 120 RD-33MK Sea Wasp engine at $ 250 million which is eventually meet for both upgradation of present Mig-29 fleet as well as incoming Naval Mig-29K. So I can readily admit that smoke issue of IAF's Mig-29 has now become the things of past.

Ok Thanks.

So it seems that some variations/tweaking/upgrades on the baseline RD-33/93 units can resolve the problem.

 

[TexasJohn]

HAL's has been overhauling the RD-33 since 1997 and till 2004 has it also manage to increase lifespan of RDs by 1000 hours

In 2005, India got the license from Russia to built 120 RD-33MK Sea Wasp engine at $ 250 million which is eventually meet for both upgradation of present Mig-29 fleet as well as incoming Naval Mig-29K. So I can readily admit that smoke issue of IAF's Mig-29 has now become the things of past.

Are the guts of this licensed engine in the form of knock down kits, or has there been any TOT?

Any Indian suppliers to this Engine? I know HAL locally produces some components "common" to the RD series already.

 

[KENT]

Are the guts of this licensed engine in the form of knock down kits, or has there been any TOT?

As I mention above India have acquired the license from russians in 2005 to develop RD-33 at $ 250 million, so naturally we have go a deep TOT about RD's as they are meant for incoming Naval Mig-29K alonwith existing fleet. One more reason for deep TOT is that when India first introduce Mig-29s in there inventory during 1986, maximum number of this aircraft were hitted very hard on account of Engine fatigue and expiry of their validity on account of poor construction as they were very first RD-33 and hence most of Mig-29s remain unoperational for many month and on top of that several engine could not even manage to complete their maxium hours as prescribed by MIG corporation. So all this things keeping in mind, India had to upgrade RD-33s on by themselves in 90s, so with this painful experience I can assure you India have got very deep TOT in respect of RDs.

Any Indian suppliers to this Engine? I know HAL locally produces some components "common" to the RD series already.

Yes HAL is the sole producer of this engine.

 

[blain2]

I doubt that India has received ToT on the RD-33s. The cost you mention is most likely the cost of purchasing and assembling them in India. Had India received ToT on the RD-33 manufacture, the road to Kaveri would have been considerably easier.

All I am saying is that you look into the terms of the RD-33 engine deal between India and Russia. Usually engine development ToT is not done so easily as its a very prized and guarded technology.

 

[KENT]

I doubt that India has received ToT on the RD-33s.

At your insistance I Can provide you with soures when this deal was inked.

The cost you mention is most likely the cost of purchasing and assembling them in India.

May be so, but as far as when HAL manage to overhual this particuler engine on its own so I can definetly assure you this is a deep TOT. Since Overhauling is quite tough job in itself.

Had India received ToT on the RD-33 manufacture, the road to Kaveri would have been considerably easier.

There is a considerable difference between RD-33 and Kaveri, since in respect of Kaveri, battle is being fought to increase its thrust and lessen its weight. Kaveri can generate much more thurst and its quite light in its weight as compared to RD-33. We can even configure Kaveri in its present form and still it can give considerably satisfying performance but innovation that is being carried out like supercruise in Kaveri will also be going to apply to MCA as well and hence it has taking some time.

All I am saying is that you look into the terms of the RD-33 engine deal between India and Russia. Usually engine development ToT is not done so easily as its a very prized and guarded technology.

Very true indeed, but you should also don't forget one thing is that HAL has been developing varieties engines since its inception like Rolls-Royce for Marut, Jaguars, Kiran Jet trainer and in addition to AL series of engine for its Su-30MKI. On the top of that when Russians are completely agreed in providing deep TOT in the development of MIG-35 if it selected as a MRCA then I can assure you India has got very deep TOT in RD-33 since they are also going to meant for Naval Mig-29K.

 

[Fulgura]

Hi

Unfortunately, when pressed a bit hard (read "when warms-up"), RDs still smoke a lot . Despite changes in RD-33MK (or whatever the Russkies call it the latest) combustion chamber, even Mig-35 smokes after 5 minutes into flight. I don't know how and why they cannot manage what those ALs can. Seeing SU-27s and Mig-29xyz flying right next to each other is a sight! 29s smoke like hell. I wouldn't want to be in one in WVR, dragging all those huge twin tails behind me.

 

[orhun]

Beatiful plane.But cockpit is dirty

 

[gromell]

Beatiful plane.But cockpit is dirty

true! I have always wondered why the Russian jets have such dirty cocpits:S but i guess it's not the beauty of the cockpit that saves your life from incoming missile. So I think behind that ugly cockpit is very strong avionics. Mig-35 and Su-35 have really good cockpits, prolly still not as eye catching as F-22 or Eurofighter's cockpit but still good. However if you see Indian Su-30MKI's cockpits, they have more analog screens than digital but I really think that's deceiving. It got French and Israeli avionics inside and is, without doubt, one of the greatest 4.5 generation fighters. So, I guess the aesthetics of cockpit does not matter that much!