Meanwhile in China and India...

[Itachi]

While we fret over closing schools, and syllabus being too difficult for children, the world is recognizing India and China for the difficulty of their maths tests:

Having studied from the Sindh Textbook Board in Matric and Intermediate, I can testify that these particular questions employ concepts that are taught in grade 12. But, those concepts are not combined in complicated ways like in Chinese/Indian tests. Instead, questions from the textbook are replicated verbatim during final exams. We are not challenging our students into applying the concepts they learn in new and complicated scenarios. And thus, we are creating generation upon generation of mental slaves. This needs to be dealt with on a crisis basis. A national emergency needs to declared to lift the level of our education across the entire country.

DISCLAIMER: My experience of Sindh Textbook Board dates almost a quarter of a century in the past. I have no idea if things have become even worse since then.

Making something that's supposed to be easy, hard.....is quite an Asian trait...

The US doesn't have hard studies yet it excels because it makes hard things easy. Obviously, China and India have to make things harder to cull their large respective populations from getting a smaller number of positions open, respective to their population sizes.

Here in the US, we're always in need of Engineers and Technicians.

 

[magra]

Making something that's supposed to be easy, hard.....is quite an Asian trait...

The US doesn't have hard studies yet it excels because it makes hard things easy. Obviously, China and India have to make things harder to cull their large respective populations from getting a smaller number of positions open, respective to their population sizes.

Here in the US, we're always in need of Engineers and Technicians.

Indian and Chinese exams are good at finding aptitude and talent. However, once found, not much work is done upon them. US universities are good at nurturing whatever talent they get to make great finished products.

 

[Goenitz]

Do people studying for engineering entrance in Pakistan also refer to 'Irodov' as gold standard for Physics?

First time hearing that terms so thanx. We have some good test system for some private universes like GIKI etc, and based on SAT, so incorporating that 'irodov' concept.

I meant there that we have stopped producing scientists and physicists.. I hardly know anyone who has taken Math as his major. All are engineers, physicians, BEd/MEd, commerce etc. So as a result, we are behind in physics generally like thermodynamics. Such as engineers teach that subject in Unis and not physicists.

There are few unis in Pak which have a Physics department.

 

[Splurgenxs]

Making something that's supposed to be easy, hard.....is quite an Asian trait...

The US doesn't have hard studies yet it excels because it makes hard things easy. Obviously, China and India have to make things harder to cull their large respective populations from getting a smaller number of positions open, respective to their population sizes.

Here in the US, we're always in need of Engineers and Technicians.

Yes the closest answer to what happening on the ground .

the jingoism of doing hard things is shallow , there is no such thing as hard .
Everything is relative,

If you throw a kid in the deep end of the pool and he survives , all he will develop is an aversion to water , swimming and maybe a PTSD.

Judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree and the fish will forever consider itself inadequate.

 

[xuxu1457]

List of countries by medal count at International Mathematical Olympiad

 

[khansaheeb]

We have our entry test exams too. Difficult and critical as it can be. However, I did O/A level, which are as critical as these questions are. Nothing, fancy I can say about that above question. In my experience, I always had good teacher of Math/Chem in O/A level in DPS Lahore, even in BSc, but not good teachers of Physics. It extends later to dynamics, then thermodynamics, turbo-machinery, and then fluid dynamics.

The math was always there, like Calculus, Differential equation, Liner algebra,, numerical methods but its application (Physics) was missing in my experience.
Whats your say in it. @khansaheeb @JamD

I don't agree with the statement " and syllabus being too difficult for children, ". Nothing is difficult for anyone and everything is easy if you know how (I coined this phrase in 2000 while a trainer). If Children find things difficult then they are not being taught well and not taught well how to learn. I worked in the UK as a substitute teacher/cover supervisor and it was one of the most eye opening and most enlightening life experience I could ever had. In one week I was teaching kids ranging from 11-16 year old's and in schools in different socioeconomic areas. What I found was truly shocking. I can write a book on what I found but here my key points:-

1. Intelligent parents take their kid's education seriously and start stimulating /educating from the day they are born

2. Kids who connect to their parents through love and understanding do extremely well

3. Kids (with Parents from mostly engineering/Science side) who started early in problem solving / puzzles etc. were exceptional in Maths and sciences.

4. Kids who read a lot and increased their Vocab were classed as "more intelligent"

5. As I used to teach classes in different sets I noticed that the kids in the lower sets were just as intelligent as the kids in the top sets. I used to ask the kids out of : reading, understanding, memorising , practice and test which one didn't they do. The top kids did all 5 and the lower set kids mostly didn't memorise and practice.

6. I found kids aren't taught how to learn and a lot of them struggled and resigned to drifting. Once they started drifting they were categorised as poor performers. Once they were categorised as poor performers they were given poor content teaching and with teachers with stereotyped views.

7. Problem solving as a subject is not taught a s a subject even though there is a unified core approach and common mathematical and logical reasoning in most subjects.

8. Teachers who knew their subjects well and were able to maintain discipline and captivate the students were the best teachers, these were very few.

9. Teachers who bullied were the worst as the kids were resentful and switched off from learning. In a few schools the kids hated the teachers and the teachers hated the kids there was total breakdown of trust and relationship between children and staff.

10. The best performing schools ( excluding private schools which have the best results) were the ones where the head teacher, governing body, teachers and parents were unified in their goals. These schools tended to be in more affluent areas, where the parents , on average, took the education of their children more seriously. Parents would regularly attend meetings, participate in school funding, stay on top of school reports etc. there was a culture of continuous improvement and high expectations. They would have a high number of kids going to Oxford and Cambridge and other top UK universities. The pupils in these schools showed me the highest respect and were the most disciplined.

11. In the top schools there was high degree of accountability of the headteacher and school governors , in the low performing schools the head teacher was more authoritarian and the governing body just for show. The head teacher creates the culture and environment for learning and success and it filters down to the kids. The worst headteachers were the ones who held subtle racist views and were intelligent in holding back children of minorities and working class children. They intentionally failed to deal with seed problem teachers and children.

12. Schools where teachers were not given targets or held accountable for results had a culture of poor results. Where teachers were performing well in low performing schools they were victimised by rogue headteachers and pushed out by restructuring or fired.

13. Government and local authorities encourage indirectly poor performing schools.

14. Parents who take their kid's education seriously in low performing schools have to top up at home by teaching the kids themselves or private tuition.

15. Kids from best performing schools have highest afterschool extracurricular activities

16. In the best schools feedback from pupils and parents is taken seriously and in the worst schools discarded.

Whilst I have diverged a little from the main topic my point is that memorisation / "ratta" is not the just one issue but is symptotic of a set of quite a few issues. Memorisation becomes the key focus of children's learning if other key learning components are neglected/weak. Excellent teachers and excellent learning support environment to produce excellent results.

 

[Goenitz]

4. Kids who read a lot and increased their Vocab were classed as "more intelligent"

why in apostrophe? I mean you really mean it is a sign f intelligence. As most of the IQ tests have one memorisation parts (mainly related to patterns)

I used to ask the kids out of : reading, understanding, memorising , practice and test which one didn't they do. The top kids did all 5 and the lower set kids mostly didn't memorise and practice.

That is a worthy comment suggestion. A one assignment can contain all of theses things. Normally, papers are designed that way.

Problem solving as a subject is not taught a s a subject even though there is a unified core approach and common mathematical reasoning in most problem solving techniques.

hmhm.. but how do you think it is taught? as I never heard of it? open ended problems, so pupils have to analyse and give a report with suggestions, with no specific answer?

Teachers who knew their subjects well and were able to maintain discipline and captivate the the students were the best teachers, these were very few.

That is the key. A teacher must have to prepare well, rehearse well, and make connection with their students. However, maintaining discipline is another technique. I am not good at it. If students don't realise importance of learning and do 50% efforts, then policing is hard for me.

13. Government and local authorities encourage indirectly poor performing schools.

So they let them in the perennial misery? in Birmingham, asian regions schools have bad reputation.. I guess, then they never can come out of it !!

Thanx man.. good post.

 

[khansaheeb]

why in apostrophe? I mean you really mean it is a sign f intelligence. As most of the IQ tests have one memorisation parts (mainly related to patterns)

That is a worthy comment suggestion. A one assignment can contain all of theses things. Normally, papers are designed that way.

hmhm.. but how do you think it is taught? as I never heard of it? open ended problems, so pupils have to analyse and give a report with suggestions, with no specific answer?

That is the key. A teacher must have to prepare well, rehearse well, and make connection with their students. However, maintaining discipline is another technique. I am not good at it. If students don't realise importance of learning and do 50% efforts, then policing is hard for me.

So they let them in the perennial misery? in Birmingham, asian regions schools have bad reputation.. I guess, then they never can come out of it !!

Thanx man.. good post.

Intelligence is fluid and not static that's why I put it in quotes. Test results change and the result classifies kids as intelligent at that snap moment in time. Few marks difference can classify a child as highly intelligent or intelligent. If a child can't be engaged within a class in which he feels caged doesn't make him less intelligent just disconnected.

That is another topic in itself :"hmhm.. but how do you think it is taught? as I never heard of it? open ended problems, so pupils have to analyse and give a report with suggestions, with no specific answer?"

Negative action and reaction , it's a technique they use to undermine children and success:-"
So they let them in the perennial misery? in Birmingham, asian regions schools have bad reputation.. I guess, then they never can come out of it !!"

 

[peagle]

Having worked with Russian and Chinese programmers, I can say they are a cut above the rest. They tend to have analytical minds and look at problems in a completely different manner. They are also very, very quick in picking up new concepts. Training in mathematics is not just about being a mathematician. Consider lifting weights in the gym. In real life, you don't need to lift a barbell 8 times in 3 consecutive sets. But the muscles you build make you fitter, healthier, and more capable in everyday life. Same goes with mathematical training. It is an exercise for the mind which conditions it better for all sorts of challenges in life. Anyone who tries to de-emphasize the importance of good mathematical education cannot be a friend of Pakistan.

The last time I studied maths was in GCSE's and that was a looong time ago. I always felt that language and culture influence how you think, and some research is coming forward to prove this theorem. One's command of a language and how expressive a given language is would inherently affect the style of thinking or type of problem solutions you would come up with.

Similarly, not the culture in itself, but how free culture/society is, open to new ideas and space for different thought streams, does a "free" society, free not in a political sense, but the intellectual sense, does it produce better thinkers, especially in theoretical sciences. Russia and China cannot be classified as free politically but I have found a lack of religious dogma tends to result in an intellectually free society. Do you think such issues play a part with regards to Pakistan?

In Islamic history, much of the advancement in all fields happened during the earlier periods, when scientific curiosity was given space and from what little I know, people had more freedoms to explore ideas, much of Greek knowledge was kept alive by early Muslim thinkers and scientists. Once Islamic theology and societies became more theocratic there has been a constant decline in scientific innovation in the Muslim world. Obviously, one can pick out examples to prove otherwise, but examples do not make a whole. It is the entirety of the "whole" that matters. I did not want to pry too deeply into this but I hope my ideas have been understood.

If one looks at India, as a second example, since the acceptance of the new Hindu extremist mindset in wider society, you find wide acceptability fancy ideas, such as airplanes being invented thousands of years ago and supercomputers etc, such thinking I am sure existed in India before as well, but it did not hold wider traction within the society. It is only with the entrenchment of extremism within the Indian society has this "regression" taken place. I voluntarily apologize if anyone gets offended, that is not my intention. I am speaking purely for intellectual curiosity. I have already touched Islam above so please keep the thread concentrated. Thank you.

I'm old and well paid to be jealous of IITians. You misread what I said, and is now insulting me for what you perceive is 'disagreeing with you'. And you fall right under the category you used to describe PDF Indians, where even a normal discussion takes a turn for the worst throwing names and insults. I am on the topic, being OP, I hope you know what you're talking about.

@CriticalThought actually I thought his point was relevant, although your point is valid to keep the discussion concentrated, But his above post was relevant to the discussion.


@khansaheeb please don't get me in trouble so no laughing lol

 

[Goenitz]

In Islamic history, much of the advancement in all fields happened during the earlier periods, when scientific curiosity was given space and from what little I know, people had more freedoms to explore ideas, much of Greek knowledge was kept alive by early Muslim thinkers and scientists. Once Islamic theology and societies became more theocratic there has been a constant decline in scientific innovation in the Muslim world. Obviously, one can pick out examples to prove otherwise, but examples do not make a whole.

Technically, that was a very local environment created in Iraq and Iran. The main reason was gathering of large scholars in one area and prosperity. Same happened in Samarkand/Bukhara etc when conquers came from there and took scholars with them to their capitals, like Timur lung did.

The religion factor came later as authorities need anything to control, so religion had served as a tool in medieval times.

 

[peagle]

Technically, that was a very local environment created in Iraq and Iran. The main reason was gathering of large scholars in one area and prosperity. Same happened in Samarkand/Bukhara etc when conquers came from there and took scholars with them to their capitals, like Timur lung did.

The religion factor came later as authorities need anything to control, so religion had served as a tool in medieval times.

Then my point would stand, whether it was local or not shouldn't be relevant, because the question being posed regards the openness of society, within those local environments, the silicon valleys of those eras, Islamic societies flourished in humanities and sciences, those environments were still Islamic in faith, with a different emphasis on theology, less theocratic.

Once that situation was altered, the decline began, then set-in. I am wondering if those conditions would apply to Pakistan also. Up till the 1980s, Pakistan was a freer society than after the 1980s. Having started with nothing, we made rapid progress, thereafter we have examples of performances by individuals but the entirety of the "whole" is lacking.

 

[Goenitz]

Then my point would stand, whether it was local or not shouldn't be relevant, because the question being posed regards the openness of society

Yes, sure.. wherever govt provide support + environment (openness, discussions, ideas exchange, scholars pool, etc), quality will improve. Be it literature/theology/arts.. Like why Imam Abu Hanifah did phenomenal work but was in Bukhara. Or art nourishment in Iran or Italy. So it is always patronage and the environment.

Once that situation was altered, the decline began, then set-in. I am wondering if those conditions would apply to Pakistan also. Up till the 1980s, Pakistan was a freer society than after the 1980s.

My point of view is that till 50s, the technological age gap between west and east was of 10-15 years. Like everybody could make tanks/aeroplanes/vehicles etc. Even toy makers were making guns. Like many british war machines were made in sub-continent for WW2.
Then the sudden advancement of sciences made this gulf wider. Now, I think we are easily, 100 years behind.

 

[peagle]

Yes, sure.. wherever govt provide support + environment (openness, discussions, ideas exchange, scholars pool, etc), quality will improve. Be it literature/theology/arts.. Like why Imam Abu Hanifah did phenomenal work but was in Bukhara. Or art nourishment in Iran or Italy. So it is always patronage and the environment.

My point of view is that till 50s, the technological age gap between west and east was of 10-15 years. Like everybody could make tanks/aeroplanes/vehicles etc. Even toy makers were making guns. Like many british war machines were made in sub-continent for WW2.
Then the sudden advancement of sciences made this gulf wider. Now, I think we are easily, 100 years behind.

Let us limit this discussion to this reply to one more reply each, as I think the OP wanted a more concentrated discussion, we are in danger of going for a long walk in a different direction lol

I hadn't understood your point, but I agree with your point in regards to the mid-twentieth century period, that's why the Soviet Union was able to take few giant strides very quickly.

But I am always concerned about timeframe-based comparisons to describe how behind or ahead a nation is. America leapfrogged the UK, up till the late 19th century it was still building its railways by borrowing from the British. America had its Xi moment with the Theodore Roosevelt presidency, he took a domestic potential and placed his nation on the road to great power status. Japan and Germany did the same after the second world war when they were thought of as a spent force. And just twenty years ago, most people did not take China seriously, no one envisioned a superpower status for China by 2020.

We are only behind any nation by one generation, heavy investment in education and the correct supporting approach by investing in core industries, that would allow those qualified to use the skills and knowledge effectively, would result in catching up with advanced nations by the second generation. South Korea did just that, very successfully. Whereas in Pakistan we killed a healthy business environment by creating the 22 families drama and nationalising everything, but South Korea allowed its mega-corporations to flourish, even now I believe Samsung accounts for around one-fifth of the South Korean GDP. There is plenty of scope to achieve things, once we follow the correct approach.

The original OPs intention I think is to highlight the shortcomings and find solutions. What we have discussed are the social, political, and broader aspects of that potential development. I hope it has provided a suitable angle to the discussion in this thread.

 

[JamD]

The math was always there, like Calculus, Differential equation, Liner algebra,, numerical methods but its application (Physics) was missing in my experience.
Whats your say in it. @khansaheeb @JamD

I was also privileged enough to do OA levels however I noticed one thing: The syllabus covered in FSc was more extensive than OA Levels Math. However, the way it was covered generally was very bad. Some students who mastered the material on their own initiative truly were very good at math. But like most things in Pakistan, it was because of their own effort, and the system didn't facilitate anything. Our secondary system obviously needs massive massive reforms. So does our undergraduate education system. Both of these systems have become too commercialized and the main driving force is money not education.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The last time I studied maths was in GCSE's and that was a looong time ago. I always felt that language and culture influence how you think, and some research is coming forward to prove this theorem. One's command of a language and how expressive a given language is would inherently affect the style of thinking or type of problem solutions you would come up with.

Similarly, not the culture in itself, but how free culture/society is, open to new ideas and space for different thought streams, does a "free" society, free not in a political sense, but the intellectual sense, does it produce better thinkers, especially in theoretical sciences. Russia and China cannot be classified as free politically but I have found a lack of religious dogma tends to result in an intellectually free society. Do you think such issues play a part with regards to Pakistan?

In Islamic history, much of the advancement in all fields happened during the earlier periods, when scientific curiosity was given space and from what little I know, people had more freedoms to explore ideas, much of Greek knowledge was kept alive by early Muslim thinkers and scientists. Once Islamic theology and societies became more theocratic there has been a constant decline in scientific innovation in the Muslim world. Obviously, one can pick out examples to prove otherwise, but examples do not make a whole. It is the entirety of the "whole" that matters. I did not want to pry too deeply into this but I hope my ideas have been understood.

If one looks at India, as a second example, since the acceptance of the new Hindu extremist mindset in wider society, you find wide acceptability fancy ideas, such as airplanes being invented thousands of years ago and supercomputers etc, such thinking I am sure existed in India before as well, but it did not hold wider traction within the society. It is only with the entrenchment of extremism within the Indian society has this "regression" taken place. I voluntarily apologize if anyone gets offended, that is not my intention. I am speaking purely for intellectual curiosity. I have already touched Islam above so please keep the thread concentrated. Thank you.


@CriticalThought actually I thought his point was relevant, although your point is valid to keep the discussion concentrated, But his above post was relevant to the discussion.


@khansaheeb please don't get me in trouble so no laughing lol

The tricky thing about math and science is that we tend to lump two distinct groups of people into one, and then try educating them as if they're the same type.

In my experience, there are 2 types of almost everything: a trailblazer and a worker.

The trailblazer is generally really good at the thing they're learning or doing, and they tend to be the ones who pick things up the quickest. Basically, the teacher's pet.

The worker is someone who's trying to learn the thing for the sake of a livelihood, and while they can do better with studying, they'll never be as comfortable as a trailblazer.

At some point, a worker can't do the 'advanced' stuff.

This distinction matters because I don't think every math student is going to be a good engineering candidate, for example. However, they might make for a good pharmacist or economist if they have good work ethic and study habits.

I think the optimal education system has to filter and segregate students at a granular level so that it isolates and propels the geniuses, while ensuring every kid underneath grows to their maximum potential. You might need to break levels by a dozen or even a couple dozen to reach the optimal point.

However, by doing so, you'll ensure that kids don't give up on learning subjects they're not trailblazers in. So, the math geniuses could still continue with communications or liberal arts at a less intense level, and as a result, become good communicators.

Likewise, a political science major could still take post-secondary mathematics, and as a result, spend time analyzing things using data.

Some might even be trailblazers in multiple, but very different fields -- e.g., similar to the Islamic scholars of the middle ages, or even early Renaissance European figures.

I think education around the world has become too much of a farm system for simply creating employees, not a genuine growth environment.