Lockheed, Pentagon reach $4 billion deal for more F-35 jets

[Superboy]

It's the same with the Ukrainian government, which reported only about a thousand soldiers KIA when the actual number is several thousand. You can ask Ukrainian soldiers and they'll tell you just that

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Has we ever lost an aircraft post WW2 from another fighter?

Yes, during the Korean war to MiG-15s and Veitnam war to MiG-17, 19 and 21s, but nothing recently.

 

[Oldman1]

Yes, during the Korean war to MiG-15s and Veitnam war to MiG-17, 19 and 21s, but nothing recently.

Gulf War 1 one aircraft lost in air to air combat.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Gulf War 1 one aircraft lost in air to air combat.

To a MiG-25... right? I wasn't sure about that one.

 

[Oldman1]

To a MiG-25... right? I wasn't sure about that one.

Have they concluded it was SAM or AAM?

 

[Chronos]

To a MiG-25... right? I wasn't sure about that one.

It was a pleasure reading your posts.

I learned so much. Thanks

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Have they concluded it was SAM or AAM?

No, I was looking at a couple of sources regarding US combat losses in both Iraq wars and couldn't find anything definitive in regards to a loss to an enemy plane. The Iraqi's claim a loss due to a MiG-25 and a few claims regarding other air-frames. We've lost F/A-18s over Iraq due to SAM fire, but I could find anything definitive to say with certainty that air-to-air losses occurred. We've had confirmed helo losses however.

 

[libertad]

Yes, during the Korean war to MiG-15s and Veitnam war to MiG-17, 19 and 21s, but nothing recently.

I suspected we lost a couple in Korea but didn't know we lost any in Vietnam (can't be a lot). My point is our fighters have never been really battle-tested, and with Shock and awe, they really don't need to be. So why are we spending over a trillion (over the course of the program including maintenance) on something that will never prove it's alleged pedigree?

 

[SvenSvensonov]

I suspected we lost a couple in Korea but didn't know we lost any in Vietnam (can't be a lot). My point is our fighters have never been really battle-tested, and with Shock and awe, they really don't need to be. So why are we spending over a trillion (over the course of the program including maintenance) on something that will never prove it's alleged pedigree?

The premise of the is conversation is flawed though. The F-35 can be a fighter just as the F-16 can be, but as the F-16 is more commonly used in the air-to-ground role so too will the F-35 be used in such a manner. It isn't a fighter, its a sleek bomb truck that can go air-to-air if needed. It's expensive and continues to be so, but its export totals and the declining cost of the program will recoup the R&D and operational costs over time, a long time, but those losses will be recouped.

Have they concluded it was SAM or AAM?

"On 17 January 1991, Lieutenant Commander Scott Speicher of VFA-81 was shot down and killed in the crash of his aircraft. An unclassified summary of a 2001 CIA report suggests that Speicher's aircraft was shot down by a missile fired from an Iraqi Air Force aircraft, most likely a MiG-25"

The quote is from wikipedia, but I'll post some more definitive info below.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041017...a.gov/docs/DOC_0000588922/0000588922_0001.gif

http://web.archive.org/web/20110721...a.gov/docs/DOC_0000588922/0000588922_0002.gif

http://web.archive.org/web/20110721...a.gov/docs/DOC_0000588922/0000588922_0003.gif

Each of these links are declassified reports on the loss of an F/A 18 over Iraq. Hope this helps.
@Oldman1

 

[libertad]

The premise of the is conversation is flawed though. The F-35 can be a fighter just as the F-16 can be, but as the F-16 is more commonly used in the air-to-ground role so too with the F-35 be used in such a manner. It isn't a fighter, its a sleek bomb truck that can go air-to-air if needed. It's expensive and continues to be so, but its export totals and the declining cost of the program will recoup the R&D and operational costs over time, a long time, but those losses will be recouped.

I agree there. Its hella expensive. I doubt we will recoup much of anything but time will answer those questions I guess.

 

[Oldman1]

The premise of the is conversation is flawed though. The F-35 can be a fighter just as the F-16 can be, but as the F-16 is more commonly used in the air-to-ground role so too with the F-35 be used in such a manner. It isn't a fighter, its a sleek bomb truck that can go air-to-air if needed. It's expensive and continues to be so, but its export totals and the declining cost of the program will recoup the R&D and operational costs over time, a long time, but those losses will be recouped.



"On 17 January 1991, Lieutenant Commander Scott Speicher of VFA-81 was shot down and killed in the crash of his aircraft. An unclassified summary of a 2001 CIA report suggests that Speicher's aircraft was shot down by a missile fired from an Iraqi Air Force aircraft, most likely a MiG-25"

The quote is from wikipedia, but I'll post some more definitive info below.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041017...a.gov/docs/DOC_0000588922/0000588922_0001.gif

http://web.archive.org/web/20110721...a.gov/docs/DOC_0000588922/0000588922_0002.gif

http://web.archive.org/web/20110721...a.gov/docs/DOC_0000588922/0000588922_0003.gif

Each of these links are declassified reports on the loss of an F/A 18 over Iraq. Hope this helps.
@Oldman1

I read in the wiki that some Bedouins found his remains and buried him and moved on, so they never reported it until during the invasion of Iraq. So the declassified info was mostly speculation on his fate prior to his remains found.

 

[C130]

just food for thought
India could buy 150 F-35s for 15 billion makes you wonder if sticking with the Russians for Pak-FA is still worth the investment.

 

[gambit]

I suspected we lost a couple in Korea but didn't know we lost any in Vietnam (can't be a lot). My point is our fighters have never been really battle-tested, and with Shock and awe, they really don't need to be. So why are we spending over a trillion (over the course of the program including maintenance) on something that will never prove it's alleged pedigree?

That mean the other guys are not tested either. Your arguments are seriously flawed. But that is no surprise here. The vast majority of police officers, local all the way up to federal, will go through their careers without firing a single shot outside of the qualifying range. Then the vast majority of armed criminals either drop their weapons or run at the sight of the police. So what should we do ? Not armed the police at all ?

Not only that a 'stealth' f117 (the cream of the crop at the time) was shot down by 60s era air defense.

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBhMSERUUEhIUExQWFhcVFBcYFhQUFBQWFRgWFhYVFxgXHSYeGBkjGhQVHy8gIycpLCwsFR4yNTAqNSYsLCsBCQoKDgwOGg8PGiwcHBwsLCksLCwpLCwsLCkpLCwsKSkpLCksKSkpLCwsKSkpLCwsLCwsKSwpLCwsLCwsLCwsKf/AABEIAMIBAwMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAACAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAACAwABBAUGB//EAD0QAAECBQIDBQYEBQQCAwAAAAECEQADEiExQVEEYXEFEyKBkQYyobHB8BRC0eEHI1Ji8XKCkqIWUxUksv/EABgBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAgME/8QAHhEBAQEAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAABEBAiESMUFRInH/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/APsgghAJXB1RsEIsGKqEXAEDFgwIEFEBAxbwAi4yCeLgIIQFxIkSAuJFRIC4kVEgLiRUSAuJFRbwEiRUSAuJFRICRIp4omAJ4EmKiPFwQmKeJFPFEJgSYomBJi4CeJAPEixO2cKgwqFAwQMVTQqCCoWDFvE0OCot4UFQVUQMBi6oWFQTxAbwTwp4IKhuBgMSqF1RKokDKosmFhUW8QFVFvAPFvAG8SAeLeAKI8C8U8AbxVUA8UVQB1RTwBVFPFgN4p4GuBK4oMmJVABcQqigiYqqFlcCVwgYTAwNcUVRYCqiQFcSHYzhUGFQkGCBihoVBhUJBggYmhtUW8KCoKqIGAwQMKCoJ4BoMW8KCot4BjxbwuqJXANiQAVErjMDQYjwquJXANeI8KriVQga8VVC6oqLAwmKJgIkUFVFFcCYpoCyqBqiRREER4qqLaKoiiiYquJTAlMKIVxRVEpiiIpEeJFRIJGcKgguOKn2m4b/AN6P+36Q3/yHh/8A3y/U/pFadcKizMA+97Ryz27IZ++QQ4FiHuWxmMw9quHP5yCFajYs7hxzZ3jA9AFRbxyk9vcPTV38sDDlQBe4uDfQ6aQvhPafh1qITNDgaggHxU2ODcj1gO3VFgwgTOnqIiZsBwfbb2pTw0vugo97OQukpWEKlpx3jsSC5IDD8puGjiexntsEzEcNMMxQWo0LmLUtSCpkoQSq5QpQUxJJBUBghs38T+wEMeMrVU8uUpFigvUkEag2w7HkSX5f8POyeG4jiFiZL72hAmIJM0MpK0gukKpKSThTvRyVER9gColUZuI4tKE1TFBCXAqUQkObAOqzkwwKe+hxqD0OsFOqiVQpzsY8H29/FRCCtHDpCil094v3EqCmcIT4loYKYum5TZniyj6C8W8cL2V7Xm8RwyZk4JSokgFLhC0hmWkEmzuPKOxXEq70a8R48V2D7U8XM46ZJmSUmVVNpKU0qlpQVUFRchaVUhLkAuoHVo9hXCoa8R4VXErhQx4jwuuJXAMqiVQsqgaooYVRKoXVEqgDriVQomJVAHXFVQsqiq4BlUUVQoqgSuLA2qJCaokIPjCZnIel/hBhY2HwjD+K5fIwQ4nk3l+0eH+mJrd3g5QVY+3jnDixs/Ui3IMIYOOA0A8xeF5EbwvZx5kfWLDHJPqf1hHClcwOEin+o1FJ5OkEE7aRaFHVPXNvvF4ueazWkJ/uU3+pTfOLqI/Osf7oLhOHVO8MtMypndkqTZnuz2cCz5EY+2ZCpaU0zxWSGCSkAg2BC0qKrEgmzMpOY1nn+t+Osvbsyb3KgZhUnUYO4s7WZ/I6gRg7D42ZKCilSkOzsTSRkG2CHOd4y8RPm2SqYpYJSR7xcP7yQSCcFnLH0guGWoouEUgsWqDG58QAYlmNmyb2jtx3Z2R1Z3bK5hDqKm1VcaO22MxUjtmcj3JqpYN2SaUt/pFvhGSZJUkJKkMFPSSoOpslgrny3hPeF8kNfo2frflG7Vd6b7Uzwm80vulZBfmQxzsY88jiGSQLDawBy42u/wAYVxEws51Ns83jNKmlznf6eUdM3pz5Pa9ne18+VLSiWqhIFkodKRqaUiwDuWAa8Xx3t5xC0d2qYplhrGnG6gzC+pa3KPM8LPFIHvAAOxpuBo4z1TGyfwDyUzBMaWtRSXLEBCsqZ60OhwWF04F45ct/XSYfL7dXLUO7WolwxqOQWOMionm0erl/xA4hIAqCmDO0tRLW8Rp961+ZMfPpsgJSSkgMxyUkNgs5EbJKlBIfr97xMhmdvbD+JM4f0nqlP0aLH8TJoZwktugX5WIjw6p20LKy7a/HfGYVfF9CT/FBf/rSS1gEm/n3kEf4gz+9QCJIDELQQayo+6xEylg39WpcYb5Zx/G0FJF2Ds5KSQRliHjq8TMUUMSTYJDqZike8oE7hwXuGYXYZ24zr6En+JW9HLwqS3mVl4aP4jpcnwY92znzKhf7bMfLzN8t2fzgO9zFrUfVJP8AEVyPCgC+VXszDwuLueXhzD0e3CiMSP8AlN+UfIxNiweQ9Hhu78Xxx9ZPtyuphKSbf3Xu2Xt0aGI9tlWfhzf+9APxU0fJnbQQQnEYJ9SIt0mPq6fbVevCrPRSf1PONCPalRBPcnkKw59AR6kR8h/Eq/qPqbeUQ9oL/qJ9DjrD+kmPrp9qjrw6xcfmB32DDT9Yi/alhaRM53Fvh+n1j5AO0FDX/qn9II9sTB+Y/JvRot5Ex9cHtWNZE75/SJHyD/5ZWw/7/rFwvInEFcRJO9/I/flFolp/MVcgkNyuXHpGng1y7gpSVEWrWUgG2AAMX96rpHGHizCbi/0HSN8rhJxS4TNQj3nLSwbWvMaq1wA51DZjRN4g2SkJAKQKkBC1lKQwpVSBQKdfPEKR2jOSHQqYk1MVFCRlhkJUpT2/NgCzY1GsdUcDxc5QmTJyUBKQlJ7qosLOSpQc/wBxVfezRPwFJH/2FqJCqgkIaaW/uKmYbONWaB4TtBGVz5sxTBQHdpSAAd1p3a6tLxj4zjkKYJnd6FO9NOhuwMtFSnN2JAFL5ELqx1JtJ/mAzAk2UQsEEWWzS1Us4xcinVo5M9EgkOQouGZJol0gEOoEFgdiS5J3btSuDlFBWvxO9FSwy6Q5FSiEkAgJKiwBLUvnF212V3awnu+7Uai6aimh6U0oUrerxBhawbDNqOLPnKSsGVLlqqtRQULVr4SRU5GGCh845nafCzVzKhL7spNLGYlRd7/zQySAwypxtG8yRLytIqcGqYhKlAbodR2sLWzFT5gIeoFmcYJfBDKL2BOjfCNek9uZN7WQSy5SinNl1FJIyymAGm4iJ7Uk2aYpLf1oUoEFs0uRG1R4czJdMsz8qKWV40ishzUhkE92HZJYqL4CuXxXDICrmXLUXplyzWlBNg6lnF81L92Lia0zp8taQVApBPhVcPdjSfoQM4jJwvEJSpdYrYEJBCkkl7KNIawDsd9Yz8Tw9SiqwFnZrJFiCzXwGt0hnDoT3iO8JQkrTUclKCUuQGN6S48o18T69D/4nxklcta+FPdpUlRStcnxgEVBSSsXIBDNaOv7dmTWVInCpQlqoqLlJdBCW8KVAgKUkEAuTkNDOMdYBmcUqahKQuWUkpM0pDKC6ipJmhvdp8Tl2cN55faS1qmVUISse4oqSv3UkLAGAFJBDtdbJF7cbu7W/WMXCyi7VUqfwgnUOTa5JtYAFzDZHaBAZRcC4wMkDUWSbk+ZzHqfZCdwSZU08XLTMDtWtYoKPCyO7SpysFJOC4sMGMnb/wCGmcYhXC91KRSEtLkqQSt1lwmdRLJugOVJNwwMXyyxJ9cUTC5dSTqkPTUlgfDUXULhmc8oavteZwxITLCThSqnU2nuYFxZ+t7D6Qj2BkfgTMlyTLUUFYVMmUkBSgsrm1DuwsAAsEpAYhwLjwfHeysylY/EGbSpKFFKRSmqkrWoO9DpWmpwVKptkxM5Zo4nbPFLnIExQuLqUFA2IAL3qsoAOQc3g+ElKqJuFFLlz4j4RVfmVEsctyaDHs/OCu7l1zCqWoqNK0JTLISVEhQCgkVe8Wscax1eyezUEgTZktLlIMxCyoSwUkkvMlqANmtSEk3d7b6kxJuucRyOzsW+7QCwf3OH1Fuh9I7/AGj2IhMpU5E8KkpCQlZk0hay/hBlqUovSfEQALlgAI83N4gpuUlnZwzPfV+uu+Iy2YFY62zzt+whiAWxpc51zbG3nAS1JUkkFJYElNwsAMSfEANRrqMxtlccoMEBAJUAtDpSAwKUlRL1m6gQUj3lWZ4DPV5ffSKE1yQPP5tD50pN/wAn+oLAD4FQLNyJBvHOUmbLPjl3JyVDOBd/nG8TWo/eRCit4QeMS1wUl9fi5aJwa6invZglpUQCvu1EBLspZSgeIC+NodlMfl9+UUYbxPB0rIQoTkgOFyxMUgp38SQpLOHcWcaEE5gt8MemLfrEBEjf4ftFwsTOnqDEipG6YDqG5MQeVrHa8ClTdLHV73GVAYYwSlbHF/eSH6WtrcbawvvCbeAt8n/tYHTIJEc1GmZSbHXKTTyf3gSfk0RZqZyca1EtoDc25D5wurHXry5HpeDRM5tpd26NcQDpdleElKh8Gs4OX6YglKVSU1AgqdjUS+7qVy+HWEhZyx+JHw66mLRNBwX6MQHyOX73iXVNMkBAJCCp2UAJdQIHhPil0tydX0CpvF1JpKSGYqoCEg0i5pQAljYlRvnxNBVbdCxuOjjGLQdfm/IHzPrDNI5/EtQEhAUxvMbxsQQUgkkM40S9rm8Zv/j1OAmap28TqKchyLXIsRj0jrqJ/LZWrg+hLW+PKKlgMbpfYXtz1vn9415JHP4aQhBUlctQqADlfjFwSWXLYOA2Ute+kN7hKWZADM6gVpJB94EuNyPdHm99xlpIagJA0YP6hyT66WgVSEhLAsXckKLg4pck+EXt9lVjLxcwqKRVgpKgKUomAhCsISPEGALgqcEcoLhOzULXUVVGg/y0S1qegJBJIKWHM+bnJHh7e8ktd1FLq6E5Nzj6RUiXMQbykrCgSlykXBudSGbUZCTh4UiHhkkALmqqDOilZBUkUrDlADAhLG+C+XGhfZi0pLAoT4zVSqkoT4SXNQqLtS1rOQ8YFpKlKUpRSTYsClgwSz2Khchh/UdIZwNCQpYICglVRZalKSwFBSkU3c3Wb0EuC0EHJkEpYTGLlNJdNSkgBgqmmqxDFQ91hljnpXMUB71mNmJABBS6gznm5uLEkA6kcYZywCpksyqyypoUamFIUs4SQ6i3O4jTxXFd3LFSXmKJYhU0ypaClhLdSqzZSnxkgnDa7OnVmzeInBlLmKly0pSkLKZUpIAYIImrkmYQlvDfALsXOLsv2lk8LOSJvDUlFalzEqmy5hdLy5aESlIRLuwqDAhT2ck8ZHtDxEpjKnqTYIJQopCgLJCrkLA0qdvSNcn2qWVJXOlSlmkgqSiXLmHISVAooq/0gEs5JDpOZuJuul2X/EdZK6+F4dVgZZeYAhYL1GszK3JA0xGoe2HezVJnSJHDSkhIQJciU1SjaYZkwWp8N3AGoIeOX+M4OZKSauJTMslRMqTNJAY/y0oWCgAABNwGB1JjryuI4GbUhEmWgKSlKiuXOSoAEkqYLEtKnY11crC8TVxg4kT+JmJSqYlRWtJExKeHlzCZiPxBCFWuBMACCpi9IeksjiuGVIrSgqnMsoBMiZKSUJSVzElyVMGUC90s72jZM7KWhJ7uegIVVUy2BPgBK1TKqagoOKw/uuoC+qXwyeHczUyZypiEiWF/zTITZK0qFCUqCiq1CgbZyTFeYRMKFnvh3jZrAKZhZlVrCqykEnCiCXwSxelU1RmTUywSgUqWgpBlXLUMHGD4r6uUg33cd7HFEtC0zFzZh96X3E5AQFCqoKVcpFRVUU0nxF1R6X2XmyZ0gIJPDqAAUQh5ik0KSokrUGUXWDQLgPZ2jW6keIkKm0kiugMhSEsPCooBA8JYnvEipnBWCI53E9qKSo0+BIsEOopSAALBXiDs5wb3j3Htn2GUvM4YlJAJW6jLWpZJUFITNSlS3BuUgl1EuXMeEai6kF1AkEqYDck5fBGuOsa46mm9/KWP5oCFKcJWilVgWdctyuXqzu+zXjSnsErQ8oy1kqcmoEtoRbwgZJfnpbp+z/Z82ahZCeFUFrK6JiZKlpValJM4Ahw2KgWvd4naHAyEpUqZw8uVMSUeKROmGW6kJUmYhiQAp6tfdMN5QzHN47hBw9ChONKle6aqkNYr3T4nAIYm7FQi+KlqVVMr7xyCpXiJYjwrUQKWLEO+UlwNWTuJQmgCema9lCeiZNEokN4JyBWRfIAzgmM0+ahC1p8CtakzO+lILt3gCaXUBUwWLO5hRlK+nr+8SLql/wBR391AubmwmbxUFrcpF2Z8bH5j6GDWTztbUfP6bQtMizAbdLnB63ERDDAGHcC/22sc2ffRktQ1OcjAbPpd4qly7kbMWDdGL4ijOJA+VufXy2i+8WzgJGn056w/xrEanJHPDscZvj7vDmqy/LwuMgNuzOXJe3OBSSTZ028trED7YZgDffkGU/w+t4imHJDOHe5WxsHsSSMnUHlrAV056nOT+YuToPhBFPTQUh036m3kYFJDH3WD3f5jH2MQU4lg7FjrZvmNswqtgGJyxBJSGd93JJawO8WFvvtZlOA7jD5b6xROWcAB8g26pZgb6Z0iC6GOjuDlTvo2/QjeLC7j3hpcqyzAAu7+uOkCAS4UWG2vk5dnO4jRw8u7makBibr7sBibOsgOWSckZ1BAoUmaTqG5jpnY4GYFUoODzfD4uLgWObcuUWZiTcTHLF0sbcne5L5HwIvTVMEqLm92O/k18/4hQQXS4dKlPjwqGxZQJDMbEPFS5aVXKUm4sUgddAds4tBNe72GRVljuwGQIoq18LjPiJJBbIUpsEaYAzFC1cOA1gnJcHFnsCcYNjrpFiWU6rDm5AKR61HDk2vDJK2DWL3AZFlFtaFHaw5QQmJ0ukPmxLakIFtSHPq0apGSfKBZwku5KikkHNyQEqbW74vtC56UOVUpYjAqCLBnYMebO943qQQ/vJe5wAbblgbfesIWoAsXfekKF9yz51+MKzGv8dJoQkA2DKKk1B/95Y6BgW8PR1zVyiPcKmDkpShk/l2ZJdh56xmCiMANr7z2LEeIY6jzijMKhZJZ9Q6bWLEi+bjIfnFIOT2nQoFFiCVeNEviBghqVghrka5ObM2f2wVlARL4eUqxqlIMpKved0oUZbh38KBixfOSa5BFsWBSRSbeIMzEhIDkWB3wNZKUpU7AnDlTHW5AKg294DqcKrCVEFFFSRR4hlHeUTCSSSUmpwpk2HhLc+ZOVUlYmGTOSO8QAAgizhT1il9FJscMAATUuYCnKdSzrTi9RIcG9rEqu7MDDVpWQEhJKQ5SkTJamJzZD3ucXtfaA2dgcMr8SF8R/NDEsCFVEEAh1+FSqQq13DkYjoyOw+H4hMxaO8KZekoalNQYTEkNdaFIKkkEA60jzaVUkFlBnAIU0wAuLKOSzhyBHQ7GmS0fzDOXLmAlSkoSElYSQQk093XZ8TCb2GYqNXAdlLSX4Lipn4hlChu6nGy1G4WpKgQNDckBgQCeLLn+J5pm95SCo1ha1MVJI9w+JkgBKjanyj1kr8Clapvf8ShSg6bKDMGWomUfA6rYSEupgQA/n+1ODmLmFTmervQVUon1lawSDQ1waVlzfNhAc+d7SJSGEoheivC7XpKSxpYt7oc/1CwgJvbdVNaRMAIocqQoIDskKSqpgb5UbZ0h8vs7hysd/MXLJTMUoUiWykJmFEvxopSVKQhIaoePQggbJnZHZ8wDu5/dA0l5immBzepIUlNnDsG8BYmLkTtwpnaMsFpf4iWjRJnhTb3oFnfT1zEjqH2Slfl42U2jzJST6VlokWItW/mMMfPXHn0iCUdRU+l3trYN84uUsPprZ3Pk2AxzaFqfVLg6uE2+9TyjgYemWkhyS7nKRS+wKVEk6NSMwtYdTOHHMk2HUBndoJCmYdMsoNazW5aZENlzHB8X7i1rtbyiVslUtLYHVydRlTWyN4KViyR5FRTew6+umIJTXx0uWG+HG+IoI822skHJYi4sxcF7X2iHwpJ3GzWSPiS4/eDE4Ppu2j87v5YiTDvYYsCn0uk7fYjQVKKci/Iv8yebRa0QZhIIIDfla52vt/iGJUWyQ27k7uzO/wBvEDOwA5e6CBe+M84kwkEgOxN748gGFj8PQILO4SRcP4iebh7eURgopDO7tvfUlrCzudr4eIOGUzhshOlnylVWDgAHL2xEnhIcZu3h95+TOR1+MT2CMy2rC/7t+3xha0EgskKtdgtVN2FRIYPgdLQUoq/MQQWVkWI2xfoz36QB4h7JUTyoSbF7sX0LY1tvFxS1BjpYaFDYdgfvBhstJO2f7AoXtoLfoIGRNWDVSFB2IZKnBcF0nk7bFjo8WiYnTN71HHNKS4xu19GvpFzJrBlNc2t4lE6Xf4PiKlTSCwCioXHhAVZsOH1i6WBGHY3dj6n9ukZFSibLYt6cmpGf1ihipbG1SchrgAWcNrdrPA0UNZQJvYBumjfGKEtQLBqX3UDe9gFNpjnEIYm+m79Qc7bwRFF2dgcM9zdvE+C4yfQa1NQBkEKN3udbPeKmoBupRH+o1C3x3xvzid1Tdw3V9Mt6axRokcSlKFooSqrClEeBTWKWl1pUHey6S4dJa6SsszVFyXwral8tZ2ODhnLrqcA1EE6XJtpchvU50hgUUj3Tiz1D5F26bmKgRMuxIdnDqQ7OwcPzhnerWWClmo3DqWVHLsHc5uL2jPMNdzS748T6F3Ol2yS+kIGwYdXI6H7EUaitnDdcpJFndmfCfQcmZL4tIfwpJAIdzrgjBDG9gm8Yp8zRwoDBBceWoHKKWAMDyJCT6Dm4eA0CY1wog3u4N7X3eOjJ7XDFK5cqaFNUb1qpuHmOojAsAMYjjk289zEllg7/AEt19dNIganJYAC7iywQQQ3jBIHPPnBEAguD875f+3XlGcrbPlcJI/fpA95yf/i/kTf5RRDwyd/gDEhgnDf/AKiKi1l0EYY+LdsAuCCQ5AzqNIJLA+64tbxHIs7Oft8RlKNXvpqxsTfOYLuma2bGpvIXcv8A4jjDK0VKuKScYJA23udtOQ0tOmEiz+JvqwzvrzaFGX4gD4Sz+EjR8uMwUtw4SCB1Jc22xprbcvEX0IqZNgLsSEudmwLO+8M7su2GDi9RA02fB1bYwF1HnqAWu98uR/nLRDKS+xuAzhiX0LH6l7sYirWsVWYKwwAfI1NwLg+eYFcwHUB8XGmuX/xFKnliAokbBr6h/EBrzhixazkeQBdrj1b/AGvFimVACwBsXNwPRgH6bRTkUkLpKVCkgIBqAsRqFWJ0wIWJzCzfB8hhnNvjFrVVuRu4OgfVtvIG14kElqKSCLXP5w5GXIJdYJNxrnnFLQoHYG4IrShTGk0upiX2OQcYhAWonA6spvNsfdoaqcGYFQAc6C5YE0tawSHa9AeNKCtWLbtfc3H35w2SaSXS7hQLhkkMz1Eht3BBcJzgp950g/G21mLwc0mm7j/c5PPRtcb5ig0hNVvD8hm9znHrAqWRazD7tT8xAyL2Bc2apwzDfyb53MGzi4YuRYjlU+vKApHDOKkl85UWsxZnv/nYwKLFrPkDW+LFnHw+cCVsX13IN2e1y27fCCUfCXG1jVfGDvy5Xihk6eVuuZ4i9ySoqUScubPcEnpmMgD/ANPSok9b4PUw2WlyWJO90glnZ3OM7npEXLPI8rvrz642vAJE9xSRqCS5SS3LZ+cEJF9tiB8SfMesHfCgz4BDp2wSw9MiLnoSGswBb3W+BO3zgE1HDbcj0cffWLpbT1doKZJOgIHOm/myfhEKkkMGNr4L9G8tzzghaUXz9+UEu4wX3DHzI94fHpEWgHF9xdwGvf1+MAAceJ35/wCfnFCpkvmep5dL/eIVMlDkOQBP0DCNandjYjVvr+phc5H9oPQPnkLH0i1GeWhtWs9wS78j83MGr16C/wAA8WZR5W8wPLTyhaVqBN26KAfqBm8UECb5bUsT1uHbraAUkhj8cs27t9YNM4agvuFXA154fXziVBr36hietiDBIn4jl/2P6RIpI5fP9IuA36bZsw1s+PttYFMy5IOLuogn4Bt8NAEFWE/R/W2WxFUMfEm43I63zHODQJqRyAuTcc2L2FsdDeGVAsKtS4cHAuGGcY1hcptAAdLsTe9ycm9uY3iOAdALPdgoA052Jb7ESdg0rGGcDRqQw9DvcxSyQSDnoGv1f4wNIDlgHBZ9bNgbc9Rqzwa7KdrOeRAuBoRhvUYEGlJSSS73z4kpSHO58PxAAi0TQEkKdINhSwOMmznW0AtVwxOwAf4aDJ9XgaQ/m2hPkn99RFKugCwDvg2G9g2Pj0hgDDfzN+f+dDAp08JB5EkZbyDcnggAxJU4ycAYd8ubA66taGrWns/g0LUypyJN8rE1QN8MhBHqoZPWHq7GcH+fICQc1LSTdh4UIUS9zZxubxgQS16sORYEXz/2zF5Iu5cX6WDbbRKi66AUpAFViQElRGzqukG2GJa9i0USAxdn1Ib44ELmS7OWYuRkAvYEMSND5wCUEm7E/wDHNrnSKp4Lh0nORrs7kPqdMRSl/wBWbYudGsn/AAbQoy8On4gk2fodPXlBLDYtvjPlCClqtZjiz2IPw8jrFJqAdndxgEPsb8zm94EKbLKGGYqF83I8osqRlr6qu7YGT+8UEmYTcAXxrbAHzDc+kFMkkpBoYHwuykoKupLPyHpmBE4izuOhBDdQGIOrbQK1A4Y9cny2vAKIbFjzJI2bI000g6RkZ3w+Me8WxC7Pf6/PSIJextq56esVGlT3f1HryOISE5wHs7MTuL/dhAd421tGb7PlFTJx/M3oxtz1hAzvNa1VO7sAGH+1yHux9YHvVkuVF83Ft4pM0lwGc7hx1FwH9YfMmEYKgDcZYDTf47bxAucpzZ7npazEaf4gFA2JDO+jH99doJaRdwQdxr5RXeYpJbyTuS5LO487NeKBTMbc+XxiOk5A9NfhoYsqGQ4I1ux8ifrEQd0pcZtnyfpBC5klIYj5Fx6iEqA30tz8sQ0rOAx6BQ1LQKVNkAjLG4cYNvu+RFwZlyr4+JPziRqBRuf+D/GuJFqRoUWsHTnVi4OT5H5QCJWxAGwFza5ipE4nHJsnU6C0NQFK1Vj+ktYgkXGhfzMY9FSzf1DrnS2gtfyhqAASGZjbJfUZP7mBEwuXJe5pcuSAS5e75tq+Yi0GlykAPqQDa9vXAMZT6OWVOWPJyUpYXBt6aa2gu6RuFENkFvUix5Z+EAjiC3hdnJAe1sly/Iaa9RS+INhWQwtQQARh2a4O93Z3gtHKl6s12/XTQlr8tYNQF7g40I83K2Ae7XMJRMSHODS2De41F9C/UQSlVB6vlS5IDJHq0FXM4hJxfRy7feP2hRUosSeQF7ObAlmG7HrETMD4Cri/jc+LRm+esa0WqUkM4DWtmxlvgWsq1upjeYaxzgq9ABCA6sAWYWJUyw9/DkFxZyHJlLUwAUpb+6kVIUwCgQoKNSmUcBhQLkqiKl1JUQMXZK2LBlOUkEqCQ+bBhmPR9le0XDpld3xEiXMKj4ESxNMwKUAhSgpghKlFjSk4SQXNIi6jzM1KkkhaQ4yNU6MWuDmxvY4hgBAuFPsQoBmBCjq2NhfnG2UiXOmLZSkJpIYS1qKFFgKkSilYQHyEkeFLg5gpPAFRUJE1E5CQElRVLCV1Eq7wVrSUo8BeoaAm5hMWuZ+Js5WX1Nr6hz+8WFPZiW8wLs4ALphU+QalWUkJPjKQFpS7lLLlk+G6bgnJI2Oc8U5H5WFPhYDm9nU5Jud7WETxTyb6Ab352fNOejm94XQcW1bQ7P8Ae8KVNFL1JcjBFwxBDlhY5tzB5lMmKOGUNNL2bJKfkbiI1VJQUk255a+LW6bRFK3+LQ8zArJ0ZixsGYu987tYQqeoMLB9SNTkjJYjkRiAinVqNbg9M/KBxtz+zyi6vLW2L9IAvtjNooorHpz+sGoAp2Lu7nJIsW/06bnOghD4LHm2ekSgp3bRjb67QQhaCLEPyfT7+cHKm7OD9uzRDM0HM4OBcm3Lyi2Cs508zoRAAQrNvRn+n0vESk7P5EH79ItUxunl/gxUucGZgSdXFsbsR99YC35t8RfpEKOQO1reXOJTdlF+e3yaBqZ7/wC3xAtu/un1/SAKUb6j5Nd/vrFzUkfsX+GkD+Iayg+1r6ejRZOg6Xf5P84BXmPUfWJB1DUKB5A/SJAaeG919XF9cGInJGgSWGzMQ3Ql4qJE1nTeEDgPfrfBMalDPN39RFxI5/UwriA4AOCpiNCybP0c+pjAgeEHUqLnU9YkSN56XByx8/1g+HLq+9MRIkXWsEk/y5n+lHzb5Wh5V4OiiByAIYdLn1iRI1x9JyZp1kgizlQPMVCx5Rc5I7xNslL87RIkaCpPFLQmUtC1IWZpQVJJSoo8ApJFylibYuY19uKJnzyS5E6ax1Dm7HSJEhjP42e2qAiYoIASCqWogWBVS1TDVtY4dA7whgzqtpgxIkTPS60yLSi1vEP/AMiAl5PT6RcSMtDwbWhc0e7zJB59fWJEgAlDw+f1iLyIkSBgZo+/MRpQo94sPa9tMH9B6RIkUZuKs5FiwNrbQUg+I/e0SJACRf8A2mBUo3voPlEiRdTPa0jHn8IVMspQFgDYaC2m0SJEVDdJe8LkByOheJEh8T67nASUmWCUgm+QDqYkSJEV/9k=

Please...As if this has not been discussed/debunked before...One F-117 and one F-16 lost out of 30,000 sorties. That means 'stealth' works.

???Crowdfunding?? Chomsky?? You really went off on a tangent there. But seriously, hat tip to Lockheed lobbyists. After ripping us off for hundreds of billions they still have us giving them more money. Fingers crossed that this will be the first project ever to be on time and on budget.

Then create your own lobbyists to get our money back. Am sure the Russians and the Chinese would love to represent people like you.

 

[madmusti]

And the 5th Generation of Air superioty fighter will be ?

 

[gambit]

Korea? Vietnam? Iraq? Kosovo? Afghanistan? None of these countries had an airforce or navy. There was no challenge there.. We could have dusted off WW2 aircrafts and still won the air, and naval battles.

Yes...We could have...But we destroyed most of those WW II aircrafts to make way for more modern ones.