Liberals & Secularists: Pakistan's "Progressive" Cancer

[El Sidd]

but I can understand the big picture and also some of the micro factors.

It was a yes or no question dancing leopard. No one questions your bollywood over dramatization skills.

The "Fringe" in Pakistan is as much a worrying trend as it is in India.

For example, mention Malala on the internet and see how much hate she gets from supposedly educated types.

How much of a "Fringe" is the Lal Masjid ??

Unless you crowned yourself as Sheriff of the region by virtue of holding on to Gaddafis golden tooth, i do not see a reason why you would worry about one random mosque in Islamabad or that one girl who got shot due to cultural problems.

 

[bananarepublic]

Great, now if you have read into Jinnah's speeches and interviews, you would know better because there an equally high number of statements that support a secular republic.

Jinnah was a smart man, he always said that politics is a gentleman's game. Whenever, he gave a public speech, to the people, he would say that Pakistan would be built on an Islamic system; but he never stopped here, he further would say a state where EVERY citizen is guaranteed equal rights, and a state that will NOT be a theocracy, because he knew that people would be reluctant and unwilling to accept if he did not introduce the idea of an Islamic system.

In Parliament, among friends, among lawmakers, and institutions, his speechs were different, he openly expressed his desire to make Pakistan a secular republic.

In his address to the constiuent assembly, 11 august, 1947...

You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.

We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state.

Direct quotations.


Dare you to look up my observations and find me a case which isn't true!



70 years of Mullahism has gotten us where?

You fail to grasp his ideal of Pakistan.
It was meant to be built upon the principle of Islamic Jurisprudence and inspiration from shariah. It was never envisioned to be a state bound by Shariah where the spiritual part of islam would intermingle in state functions.
”But make no mistake : Pakistan is NOT a theocracy or anything like it.” , 19 February 1948
He never envisioned it as "fundamentalist" state
I never stated that what the Mullahs put forward is the Right way for the state,It is far from it.
The same applies for secular state as jinnah had clearly laid out that Pakistan would be governed on certain principles.

Now regarding your quote I will try to explain certain things regarding Jinnah. Our Quaid whenever he has mentioned Islam he has described it as a complete set of principles to which a Muslim is to live his life "both in the worldly and religious(spiritual) sense".
When he laid out the principle of statehood he clearly mentions the religious aspect shall not intermingle with state affairs rather the principle of Islam shall pave the way for the state (brotherhood, tolerance, humility, service to others etc).
You fail to see he did not want a state neither based as a secular republic or a shariah state.
One can draw an incontrovertible 'conclusion that Pakistan was never ever conceived as a secular state nor was there a chance in a million that after it came into being on the basis of the two-nation theory compounded by partition violence, it would be declared a secular state"

It was a vision shared by many but grasped by few and turned into reality by none, His path has always been there for the state one can only wonder when that envisioned state shall become a reality.

 

[jamahir]

i do not see a reason why you would worry about one random mosque in Islamabad or that one girl who got shot due to cultural problems.

Random mosque ?? Cultural problems ?? You win the 'Understatement of the year' award.

As for why I should be concerned, not only I worry for Muslims everywhere, I also want to see Progressive societies everywhere.

Also, are there not threads on the forum which are say about Pakistanis talking about problems in USA ??

Lastly, if I was an American would you use the same tone with me ??

 

[El Sidd]

not only I worry for Muslims everywhere

you do not. you sell their blood for your false messiah gaddafi's caliphate

Also, are there not threads on the forum which are say about Pakistanis talking about problems in USA ??

most of them wave one american flag or have family in America.
America is also Pakistan's top trade partner.

Lastly, if I was an American would you use the same tone with me ??

Why don't answer the question and see if that changes anything?

 

[jamahir]

most of them wave one american flag or have family in America.
America is also Pakistan's top trade partner.

Many of these talks are not about government-level strategic things but about cultural issues. But I don't see the White American members of this forum ever forbidding the Pakistanis in discussing such things.

Why don't answer the question and see if that changes anything?

Certainly it would change. You wouldn't be rude and sarcastic. You would listen.

 

[El Sidd]

Many of these talks are not about government-level strategic things but about cultural issues. But I don't see the White American members of this forum ever forbidding the Pakistanis in discussing such things.

Cultural issues in India and Pakistan are poles apart. To begin with India is a secular society while Pakistan is and forever was a conservative society with liberal understanding of theology. This is a divide that transcends the events of 1940's between the two regions.

Certainly it would change. You wouldn't be rude and sarcastic. You would listen.

We do not have Trump temple.

 

[jamahir]

Cultural issues in India and Pakistan are poles apart. To begin with India is a secular society while Pakistan is and forever was a conservative society with liberal understanding of theology. This is a divide that transcends the events of 1940's between the two regions.

1. I was talking about Pakistani PDF members unhesitatingly talking about American cultural issues, not Indian ones.

2. Two things in Pakistan could have changed the country's make up - (a). If Jinnah had lived for ten more years. (b). If Faiz's coup attempt had been successful.

We do not have Trump temple.

You had Zia ul Haq.

 

[Crusher]

If you really believe that then you need some professional help. I'm punjabi too btw and the same mentality is at the heart of a lot of the problems in our country. I'd like for you to come back and stay with your people and not be in Europe because clearly they must be elsewhere in the hierarchy. Why don't you practice what you preach?

And both a donkey and a horse are to be treated equal. You'd be surprised that donkeys have been instrumental to your nation's defense and serve under the flag of your country. I'd honestly think they deserve more respect than you for that, so taking your logic into account, the donkey is above you in that hierarchy. If you mind me applying that to your case then know this, you too are a citizen of this nation and when you speak of discrimination then have some taste of it. Feel free to report me if you think I've crossed a line but I have dealt with your ilk quite often.

Despite all your lectures I will still stick to the centuries old generational wisdom of my ancestors. It is clear you and I don't share anything in common despite being from the same country.

 

[El Sidd]

1. I was talking about Pakistani PDF members unhesitatingly talking about American cultural issues, not Indian ones.

Are you worried that they may end up offending Americans?

2. Two things in Pakistan could have changed the country's make up

and only War can change fate of India.

You had Zia ul Haq.

Show me temple CIA wannabe

 

[jaibi]

We don't but I've served to protect even you. You're free to believe what you want but when you preach you'd have people like me holding you accountable, brother with the donkeys and the horses, both beautiful animals.

One speaks volumes by their actions rather than words.

Despite all your lectures I will still stick to the centuries old generational wisdom of many ancestors. It is clear you and I don't share anything in common despite being from the same country.

 

[Crusher]

We don't but I've served to protect even you. You're free to believe what you want but when you preach you'd have people like me holding you accountable, brother with the donkeys and the horses, both beautiful animals.

One speaks volumes by their actions rather than words.

No one has served to protect me, I don't believe in this emotional rhetoric. Everyone protects himself in the society, in a capitalist society like Pakistan it is a constant game of survival on daily basis.

 

[jamahir]

Are you worried that they may end up offending Americans?

Since I don't understand what you say here I will only say that the American members never stop the Pakistani members from discussing about America or forbid them from criticizing America.

Show me temple CIA wannabe

Why just a temple, there was an entire government machinery.

Anyway, I am logging off now.

 

[jaibi]

You may think so; the keyboard and the internet you use is something you owe to people who've died to make this world what it is today. That's the point they're not all talk, like you.

No one has served to protect me, I don't believe in this emotional rhetoric. Everyone protects himself in the society, in a capitalist society like Pakistan it is a constant game of survival on daily basis.

 

[Crusher]

You may think so; the keyboard and the internet you use is something you owe to people who've died to make this world what it is today. That's the point they're not all talk, like you.

If the keyboard and internet become non-existent from tomorrow, I wouldn't give a damn about it, I will just accept it as a new reality of a constantly changing world.

 

[El Sidd]

Anyway, I am logging off now

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