Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

[Abingdonboy]

Latest Buzz: Israel offers to participate in Super Sukhoi upgrade with GaN AESA?

Hearing from sources that Israel after offering India their 2052 AESA with GaA modules for different jets upgrade programs (LCA MK1A, Jaguars and later Mirages), they have proposed to make the GaN AESA through a JV with India.

Elta's offer, however, came with the condition that at least one more fighter in the IAF's inventory should field the ELM-2052 AESA radar. To sweeten the deal, Elta offered to work jointly with HAL on an improved version of the ELM-2052.

This was a win-win for both Elta and HAL. "Look at the market HAL provides Elta. The 61 Jaguars being upgraded to DARIN-3 would all be fitted with the ELM-2052. At least 100 Tejas would get the improved version, possibly with more to follow. Meanwhile, 50 IAF Mirage-2000 fighters are being upgraded, but with a manual radar that could become obsolescent quickly. So the improved AESA could eventually equip the Mirage fleet too,adding up to 200-plus radars," says Raju.(Chmn HAL)

The latest twist in the story is that they have proposed the upgraded GaN AESA for Super Sukhoi MLU program. The backend software help will be provided by Israel only. Israel has cited that recent technology development it has done for its cutting edge F35 customization has enabled it to have a 360 degree viewing day and night assimilation which can be integrated to the pilots cockpit for MKI upgrade.

This technological leap has stumped IAF and MOD as they were expecting a sensor fusion upgradation package from Russia for Super program and a further step up in the same sensor fusion in their coveted 5th Gen FGFA/PAKFA program.

Israel had asked for ZERO cost for development or time for GaN AESA radar development and has indicated its strongest desire to have the JV and participate in Make In India program.

IAF chief Raha, DM MP both has requested PM NaMo to have a further discussion with the Russian counterparts in their December Summit and seek out whats there in the radar and sensor fusion package to have a comparison, cost and benefit analysis. Since Su 30 MKI has already french and israeli tech, the possibility of having this upgrade from Israel is actually very tempting.

The source says

"From 200 GaA AESA add 350 GaN AESA (MKI eventually will reach 350 with an additional tranche prepared to order beyond 272) and minimum of 100+ RBE 2 AESA all under 5th gen jets implies IAF is potentially looking at 700 AESA equipped jets. With 5th Gen birds and their AESA tech eventually with retirement also of some birds, IAF is looking at minimum of 800-850+ AESA equipped jets. They key now is time bound decision making and implementation. The face of IAF can be changed to a far more destructive lean and mean force in a short time if we get this done"

Mouth watering prospects.. Israel is turning up the heat with radars, SAMS (Spyder, Barak8) etc.. I am waiting to see what next they pull out from their magical hat...

These are the kind of oppurtunites that arise but once in a lifetime and should be snatched up instantly. Deepening ties yet further with Israel, standardising the AESA radar across most of your fighter fleet (exlcuding the Rafales and FGFA) and keeping the Russian input to a minimum all make this offer a mouth-watering prospect.

Oh and did I mention the Israelis aren't asking for the exhorbitant devlopment costs the Russians demand and then inflate at will?


I hope some cool headed decsion makers in the PMO and MoD fully appreciate the benfits of such an offer and grab it with both hands. God knows how many momentous oppurtunities India has let slip through its fingers in the past....

As things stand
India is no longer looking at 42 sqds, but trying to maintain 33-35 Sqds
With another 10 Sqds set for retirement in next 7 years
IAF will struggle to maintain existing numbers
With only 3 Su30MKI Sqds guaranteed and 36 Rafales still not sure ,

The IAF has said they will meet their sanctioned strength of 42 SQNs by the middle of the next decade, make of that what you will....

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I do not think Russia will allow Israel to tinker and play with their best aircraft. Remember they too have a AESA radar, and they will never allow Israeli technicians even near a PAKFA as mentioned in their article.
If they see Israeli offer as a threat, they will offer to co-develop the similar quality of that Radar with India

 

[Spectre]

These are the kind of oppurtunites that arise but once in a lifetime and should be snatched up instantly. Deepening ties yet further with Israel, standardising the AESA radar across most of your fighter fleet (exlcuding the Rafales and FGFA) and keeping the Russian input to a minimum all make this offer a mouth-watering prospect.

Oh and did I mention the Israelis aren't asking for the exhorbitant devlopment costs the Russians demand and then inflate at will?


I hope some cool headed decsion makers in the PMO and MoD fully appreciate the benfits of such an offer and grab it with both hands. God knows how many momentous oppurtunities India has let slip through its fingers in the past....


The IAF has said they will meet their sanctioned strength of 42 SQNs by the middle of the next decade, make of that what you will....

I hope you do know that someone else is pulling the strings regarding Israeli offer? Unless their is full ToT expect strings to be yanked if India proves to be too difficult.

Though the above is to be expected - French, Israel, Russia, UK, US all are cut from the same cloth - there is nothing strictly transactional about such big ticket deals only difference is in the degrees of leverage they exert. Israelis are the most business like - I thought the same about French but the Mistrel fiasco cured me of that delusion.

That said in a span of 25-20 years, there are no foreseeable issues till we start sparring on Climate Change associated stuff.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I hope you do know that someone else is pulling the strings regarding Israeli offer? Unless their is full ToT expect strings to be yanked if India proves to be too difficult.

Though the above is to be expected - French, Israel, Russia, UK, US all are cut from the same cloth - there is nothing strictly transactional about such big ticket deals only difference is in the degrees of leverage they exert. Israelis are the most business like - I thought the same about French but the Mistrel fiasco cured me of that delusion.

That said in a span of 25-20 years, there are no foreseeable issues till we start sparring on Climate Change associated stuff.

I understand what you are saying and I am a firm beleiver in "there are no permenant friends, only permenant interests". But I would say that Israel is an anomoly, they are quite different to the US and UK who are, pretty much, beholden to buissness interest, Russia who is at the whim of whatever autocrat they have in power and France who are shrewd practictioners of an independant self-serving foreign policy but are increasingly being tamed and nutered by the EU and Europe as a whole.

Israel is a product of its enviroment- the holocaust and subsequent challenges to its very exsistence by hostile neighbours. As such their mindest, even in the populace, is strongly a function of a seige mentality. Addtionally, they are extrmely marginalised on the interantional stage because of various propoganda ploys by the obvious players. As such, their interests allign with India's overwhelmingly and whilst the US can tout itself as India's natural ally- Israel is the real deal- pluralist open democracies surrounded by simiarly crazy neighbours hellbent on the destruction of oneself. On a people-people, ideological and economic levels India and Israel have been drawn to one another since ties took off offically in the early 1990s, all without much overt effort by either side. Thousands of Israelis visit India every year after completion of their IDF service, Israelis have extensive ties in the Mumbai jewel markets, Israel is one of the largest consumers of Indian media (per capita) etc etc.

The only limitation to the Indo-Israeli relationship is the 800 pound gorilla in the room- the USA.


Unlike the US, Israel has no intentions of dominating India and using it as a client state (nor the means to).

 

[Spectre]

I understand what you are saying and I am a firm beleiver in "there are no permenant friends, only permenant interests". But I would say that Israel is an anomoly, they are quite different to the US and UK who are, pretty much, beholden to buissness interest, Russia who is at the whim of whatever autocrat they have in power and France who are shrewd practictioners of an independant self-serving foreign policy but are increasingly being tamed and nutered by the EU and Europe as a whole.

Israel is a product of its enviroment- the holocaust and subsequent challenges to its very exsistence by hostile neighbours. As such their mindest, even in the populace, is strongly a function of a seige mentality. Addtionally, they are extrmely marginalised on the interantional stage because of various propoganda ploys by the obvious players. As such, their interests allign with India's overwhelmingly and whilst the US can tout itself as India's natural ally- Israel is the real deal- pluralist open democracies surrounded by simiarly crazy neighbours hellbent on the destruction of oneself. On a people-people, ideological and economic levels India and Israel have been drawn to one another since ties took off offically in the early 1990s, all without much overt effort by either side. Thousands of Israelis visit India every year after completion of their IDF service, Israelis have extensive ties in the Mumbai jewel markets, Israel is one of the largest consumers of Indian media (per capita) etc etc.

The only limitation to the Indo-Israeli relationship if the 800 pound gorilla in the room- the USA.


Unlike the US, Israel has no intentions of dominating India and using it as a client state (nor the means to).

There is much to admire about Israel as you have correctly stated and there are certain similarities in the predicaments both India and Israel face.

I would just like to say there are two 800 pound Gorillas in the room. US and India's own 200 Million Strong Muslim population most of which are against Israel purely on ideological basis. In addition India depends heavily on sworn enemies of Israel for energy security and remittances. This and various other issues ensures that India Israel relationship would remain closeted for times to come.

Further Israel is heavily involved with China - covertly of-course. There have been various sensitive tech which China got it's hands on via Israel.

Regards.

 

[HariPrasad]

I do not think Russia will allow Israel to tinker and play with their best aircraft. Remember they too have a AESA radar, and they will never allow Israeli technicians even near a PAKFA as mentioned in their article.
If they see Israeli offer as a threat, they will offer to co-develop the similar quality of that Radar with India

There is already a good amount of Israeli stuff in MKI in EW.

 

[It.is.all.mudi's.fault]

@Abingdonboy

If we choose Israeli Radar for Su-30MKI , How would we integrate next-gen weapons of FGFA with Su-30MKI?

 

[MilSpec]

@Abingdonboy

If we choose Israeli Radar for Su-30MKI , How would we integrate next-gen weapons of FGFA with Su-30MKI?

open bus architecture.

 

[zebra7]

open bus architecture.

Open bus architecture does not means that the integration of the weapon could be done without source code of the weapon. Open bus architecture means that it weapon is attached to the bus using a standard electrical and electronic connector.

 

[MilSpec]

Open bus architecture does not means that the integration of the weapon could be done without source code of the weapon. Open bus architecture means that it weapon is attached to the bus using a standard electrical and electronic connector.

It's not really, Open bus architecture in context refers to the communication protocols developed for the mission computers that can access the resource blocks addresses. They have the functionality of the serial data bus, All communication on the bus is under the control of the Bus Controller using commands from the BC to the RTs to receive or transmit much like a Foundation Field bus device layer network. Look up MIL-STD-1773

 

[SR-91]

#1......This truly sounds like a very good deal, but, me as a entrepreneur, I would question this deal and get in depth information, positive and negative.
Going this route, we will most certainly loose out indigenous program, UTTAM.

Two...... if we go with this deal, it means Israel gets inside information about our weapons. Which is never a good idea. I can tell u with experience, JEWS are no one's friend. They have one friend and one friend only, MONEY.
For that they will do everything, what if we go with deal and get their AESA on pretty much all our planes. Who is to say that they will not sell this highly sensitive info to chinese. China has a lot of money and for the right price, it can be bought.

I rather spend more money and buy their technology and integrate it ourself and make sure to build it in India.