KE drone VS Rafale

[Oublious]

Beyazıt Karataş yazdı: Dikkat Kızılelma çıkabilir

Emekli Hava Pilot Tümgeneral Beyazıt Karataş ve Makine Mühendisi Fazıl Altay yazdı...

www.veryansintv.com

Writen by a former Turkish airforce commander, it is Turkish but you can use translator. What kind effect KE will do against Rafale is crazy . The only dogfights will only able for stealth fighters, against each other so the dogfight argument is viable.

 

[LegionnairE]

Beyazıt Karataş yazdı: Dikkat Kızılelma çıkabilir

Emekli Hava Pilot Tümgeneral Beyazıt Karataş ve Makine Mühendisi Fazıl Altay yazdı...

www.veryansintv.com

Writen by a former Turkish airforce commander, it is Turkish but you can use translator. What kind effect KE will do against Rafale is crazy . The only dogfights will only able for stealth fighters, against each other so the dogfight argument is viable.

I skipped to the AI part and got disappointed that not much is being said about it.

Without a very, very good AI, KE will be at a serious disadvantage. and I think that even if we have the best AI in the world, KE won't be able to compete with a human pilot in a WVR engagement.

That being said, the biggest disadvantage of Rafale is that it's so damn expensive. F35 is so cheap because America makes thousands of them. When you have hundreds of KE drones, and your opponent only has 24 Rafales, eventually you'll shoot down all of them.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Here, Ki: incident radar signal, Kr: reflected radar signal.

Rafales engine intakes can be seen. KE's one is blocked by air channels.

 

[SQ8]

I skipped to the AI part and got disappointed that not much is being said about it.

Without a very, very good AI, KE will be at a serious disadvantage. and I think that even if we have the best AI in the world, KE won't be able to compete with a human pilot in a WVR engagement.

That being said, the biggest disadvantage of Rafale is that it's so damn expensive. F35 is so cheap because America makes thousands of them. When you have hundreds of KE drones, and your opponent only has 24 Rafales, eventually you'll shoot down all of them.

Wut?
A F-35 does have economy of scale but it is not cheap.

 

[Oublious]

- Kızılelma da Kompozit malzemeden üretilmesine rağmen -10dB RCS’de indirmedik.

-Although Red Apple is also made of composite material, we did not lower it at -10dB RCS.

Based on software RCS is calculated, but the composite part is not calculated. TB2 was almost not possible to lockon from groundbased radars from certain distance because of the composite body. It wil get RAM material to, so what kind RCS it will have is like a F35.

some comparisons..

lowerbody

most important part when head on head engagement.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Relative head-on engagement distances. A PAF KE (20m$) can shoot down an IAF Rafale (200m$) using a PL-15. Ey Hindutva, you're dead....

AC-Type Acquisition-price Number Op-cost/hr Life(hrs) Life-long-cost

*Milyar = billion

 

[LegionnairE]

Wut?
A F-35 does have economy of scale but it is not cheap.

it's very cheap for the capabilities it brings to the table.

It is NUTS that it's almost the same price as a Gripen. Probably the least capable fighter jet in the western hemisphere that is currently in production.

And Turkey's deal was even sweeter. We would basically pay no money. Just deliver parts made in Turkey and the planes would be paid for.

We basically lost the chance to get FREE planes. Can't get much cheaper than that.

 

[SQ8]

it's very cheap for the capabilities it brings to the table.

It is NUTS that it's almost the same price as a Gripen. Probably the least capable fighter jet in the western hemisphere that is currently in production.

And Turkey's deal was even sweeter. We would basically pay no money. Just deliver parts made in Turkey and the planes would be paid for.

We basically lost the chance to get FREE planes. Can't get much cheaper than that.

Lets agree to disagree -
The Gripen may cost $85 million - but even with
Flyaway cost for the F-35 even for the USAF right now is $78 million - however when you layer on the cost of development for the program overall that cost balloons. Turkey put in $199 million into the program and then more later to get to $1 billion which is still stuck, and at the end got delivered nothing - while it made money off the parts it did not recoup the costs yet - had Turkey not been removed from the program then the total investment by Turkish government over the years including both airframe cost and development overhead would have been greater than $14-16 billion.
Lets say from all the sales of the F-35 they gained an extraordinary amount of $12 billion through the entire program that would have led to total costs for the 116 jets to be around $40 million so not “FREE”.

But that was the benefit of being the partner - now, Turkey not only doesn’t have a 5th gen nor does it have the $12 billion it could have had from the program not to mention industrial know how that would have contributed to TF-X and Kizelima.. all because the much vaunted S-400(which Akincis and TB-2s apparently can also knock out using the right tactics) was more impressive to Erdogan

 

[LegionnairE]

Lets agree to disagree -
The Gripen may cost $85 million - but even with
Flyaway cost for the F-35 even for the USAF right now is $78 million - however when you layer on the cost of development for the program overall that cost balloons. Turkey put in $199 million into the program and then more later to get to $1 billion which is still stuck, and at the end got delivered nothing - while it made money off the parts it did not recoup the costs yet - had Turkey not been removed from the program then the total investment by Turkish government over the years including both airframe cost and development overhead would have been greater than $14-16 billion.
Lets say from all the sales of the F-35 they gained an extraordinary amount of $12 billion through the entire program that would have led to total costs for the 116 jets to be around $40 million so not “FREE”.

But that was the benefit of being the partner - now, Turkey not only doesn’t have a 5th gen nor does it have the $12 billion it could have had from the program not to mention industrial know how that would have contributed to TF-X and Kizelima.. all because the much vaunted S-400(which Akincis and TB-2s apparently can also knock out using the right tactics) was more impressive to Erdogan

Gripen is more comparable to Pakistan's JF-17 than the American F35. The fact that the price is anywhere close is astounding.

The amount of money made by the Turkish defense industries could very well increase as more orders on F35 are placed in the next 40 years. Now after the war in Ukraine, Germany is considering the F35, Poland might be ordering more planes. The amount of money Turkey could have made by remaining in the program could pay for some of the operating costs of our own fleet.

Overall, it's neigh impossible to find a better deal anywhere else. And having 100 F35s would certainly ease the tensions in the mediterranean. Where do you think a country like Egypt is finding the courage to defy Turkey?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Lets agree to disagree -
The Gripen may cost $85 million - but even with
Flyaway cost for the F-35 even for the USAF right now is $78 million - however when you layer on the cost of development for the program overall that cost balloons. Turkey put in $199 million into the program and then more later to get to $1 billion which is still stuck, and at the end got delivered nothing - while it made money off the parts it did not recoup the costs yet - had Turkey not been removed from the program then the total investment by Turkish government over the years including both airframe cost and development overhead would have been greater than $14-16 billion.
Lets say from all the sales of the F-35 they gained an extraordinary amount of $12 billion through the entire program that would have led to total costs for the 116 jets to be around $40 million so not “FREE”.

But that was the benefit of being the partner - now, Turkey not only doesn’t have a 5th gen nor does it have the $12 billion it could have had from the program not to mention industrial know how that would have contributed to TF-X and Kizelima.. all because the much vaunted S-400(which Akincis and TB-2s apparently can also knock out using the right tactics) was more impressive to Erdogan

Lest you should forget, every time you you want to switch on this jet you need a prior permission from the USA. Turkey's and the USA's interes are 180 degrees apart in crucial matters like putting down the terrorists in the northern Syria/Iraq, exploring hydrocarbons at the East Med etc. An empty house is better than a bad tenant.....

 

[FuturePAF]

Relative head-on engagement distances. A PAF KE (20m$) can shoot down an IAF Rafale (200m$) using a PL-15. Ey Hindutva, you're dead....

AC-Type Acquisition-price Number Op-cost/hr Life(hrs) Life-long-cost

*Milyar = billion

Would love to see an affordable manned version of the KE for the PAF. A manned version that can team with the KE, and coordinate its attacks. Just a thought to consider for the 2030s.

 

[LegionnairE]

Would love to see an affordable manned version of the KE for the PAF. A manned version that can team with the KE, and coordinate its attacks. Just a thought to consider for the 2030s.

That wouldn't fit the maximalist approach of the current leadership.

Tanks, planes, cars and whatever we make has to be big and flashy. Like how the arabs love making the highest skyscrapers, we're making a statement.

Did the TFX need to be this big? Did TCG Anadolu need to be this big or would a smaller LPD be enough? Whenever there's a choice, we choose to make things bigger.

It could be a phase, it might pass.

Our most successful export is the itty bitty little TB2 after all with not even a retractable rear landing gear...

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Would love to see an affordable manned version of the KE for the PAF. A manned version that can team with the KE, and coordinate its attacks. Just a thought to consider for the 2030s.

TF-X will be controlling and cooperating with KEs. Now, Bayraktar's objective is to make the unmanned jets rule the sky....

 

[Otonom Piyade]

Yes fellow Turkish heathens...

Kizil Elma is going to be a big and capable outonmous fighter jet, and will become to rule the skies in the future inshaAllah..

When ever Turks put their mind into something, they excell at it and become leading superior, just like in the past, we are the Superior Turkish Masters, that gives the occasional slaps to the minions like Gayreece..

I welcome this Kizil Elma initiative and can guarantee that it will rule the skies for the years to come.. we are afterall The Superior Turkish Masters..

 

[aziqbal]

if Turkey loses 10 UCAVS to 1 Rafael they wont have lost any pilots so hence retained their crews

they can rebuild those UCAVS but fighter jets take years of pilot training and billions of investment