Kashmir's Young Rebels

[Icarus]

So.... you mean that 'Third Degree' has been abolished completely on your side ? If so, then Amnesty Intntl. would be extremely thrilled at the development....
Having said that, that shift is also certainly visible here, the question is that extraction of information takes place at different levels, that has a bearing on how it takes place; something that you may be aware of.
Using this to tackle insurgency is only a short term measure. Long term measures are different, and some efficacy is visible; barring "external inputs" that are used in an attempt to aggravate the situation.

Amnesty has a lot to be thrilled about, terrorists walking free thanks to the courts and what not. Its their day dream come true.
That being said, obviously as both nations mature, use of torture will decline however I still find the idea revolting that someone would revel in the pain of another, even if he is an enemy.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Amnesty has a lot to be thrilled about, terrorists walking free thanks to the courts and what not. Its their day dream come true.
That being said, obviously as both nations mature, use of torture will decline however I still find the idea revolting that someone would revel in the pain of another, even if he is an enemy.

I agree completely with you Sir. Torture is self-defeating..... after a certain point. In a recent discussion on tackling the Maoist problem; I put forth the suggestion that flame-throwers could be used to tackle them in jungle ambushes..... it was met with a quiet hush. Then I said that it would be extremely effective...... and give us "roasted Maoists" who are the only Good Maoists there can be (I used the word Tandoori, actually) which deepened the silence; then said to the (impressed) listeners that it would eliminate Maoists. But the next question... would it eliminate Maoism ?
To tackle that ....... methods have been changed, with at least some clearly visible results.

About Torture; to tell you the truth, very few actually revel in its use; the few who do are used to act as its perpetrators mostly. But for the most part; its simply seen as an expediency, as a quick-fix. which can then be used to explain it away; to anybody, including one-self.

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong who will probably defect to Ghana for a plate of Nihari

I object...I will never betray the Motherland !

Did the Nihari have puttth aur machliii key bootiyaaan ?

On topic : The only difference between Kashmir and Bangladesh is a measure of success; if you're successful even your worst crimes are rationalized away and if you're not even your tiniest mistakes are made a mountain out of. For every State has employed brutality in crushing an armed rebellion and every so called freedom fighter has committed gross human rights abuses.

Its not about the UN resolutions, its not about morality...heck its not even about right and wrong because States do not have a sense of morality they only have self-interests and they'd be as hypocritical as they'd want to be in the pursuit of those self-interests.

Otherwise why do you think that a country created out of the demand for self-determination would look at every legal loophole under the sun to deny it to a people within its borders who are demanding as such ?

Why would a State that talks about state brutality at the hands of their colonial masters was busy filling up mass graves against dissidents in its own lands ?

Why is it a state who cries bilateralism at every turn and doesn't see the worth of the UN beyond having World Yoga Day's declared would give a pint of blood and an arm for a seat on the Security Council ?

Because Hypocrisy is the only Policy that a State - ANY state - has ever had and will ever have !

The time of chivalry, idealism and romanticized notions is long over....the sooner we realize this the better.

The solution to the Kashmir Dispute lies not in what Kashmirs want nor what the UN resolutions state or how many so-called non-state actors Indian captures who've got everything but a signed autobiography of the DG ISI on them but a Pakistan that learns to play the game called 'International Relations' - If we've built our institutions up, neutered every fanatic within our borders, instituted some semblance of meritocracy and fairplay for our people, have a PR team that actually knows what they're supposed to do and concentrated on all those things that give a state the right nuisance value.....Kashmir kiya....Kashmir ka baaap bhiii solve ho jaiii ga !

Our failure to do this and their brains to do exactly this is the reason why we're thought of as an imploding terrorist sh*t hole in the world whereas they're thought of as an exotic, emerging, democratic powerhouse. PR is everything....otherwise anyone who hasn't fallen in love with his own legend and isn't a self-righteous prick would know that India ranks higher than Pakistan on PEW's social hostility involving religion index, has more multi-dimensional poverty than Pakistan according to UNDP's Human Development Report of 2014, that for every Mumbai where non-state actors were involved there is a Samjhota where a 'State' actor was involved, for every Captain Kalia there is a Sipahi Maqbool Hussain, for every Kargil there is a Siachin, for every insurgency in Pakistan there has been a Khalistan, the North-East and Kashmir in India, for every accession of Baluchistan there has been an Operation Polo and for every hawk in Pakistan there have been many more in India.

Our issues stem from the 'absentee landlord problem' - Roneiii dhonneiii say kaam nahin hotaaa....kaaam karneiii seh kaaam hotaa haiii....so work on our shortcomings and become well versed in realpolitik - Do that and success will follow !




That was too serious !

Back to the happy go lucky me; phir Sethi Sahib sunnaa hai keh aaap asal mein Uganda kay Sethi hain ?

 

[Icarus]

Back to the happy go lucky me; phir Sethi Sahib sunnaa hai keh aaap asal mein Uganda kay Sethi hain ?

It pains me to see that you have more green rating on your profile than me and now I am to blame for that.

I agree completely with you Sir. Torture is self-defeating..... after a certain point. In a recent discussion on tackling the Maoist problem; I put forth the suggestion that flame-throwers could be used to tackle them in jungle ambushes..... it was met with a quiet hush. Then I said that it would be extremely effective...... and give us "roasted Maoists" who are the only Good Maoists there can be (I used the word Tandoori, actually) which deepened the silence; then said to the (impressed) listeners that it would eliminate Maoists. But the next question... would it eliminate Maoism ?
To tackle that ....... methods have been changed, with at least some clearly visible results.

About Torture; to tell you the truth, very few actually revel in its use; the few who do are used to act as its perpetrators mostly. But for the most part; its simply seen as an expediency, as a quick-fix. which can then be used to explain it away; to anybody, including one-self.

Well for the first part, I don't know how you guys deal with the Maoists already but flamethrowers would not be the most effective tactics. Its showy, yes, and it might serve to have a psychological impact on the enemy but with its limited range and lack of dug in fixed positions to tackle, flamethrower carriers will become the sitting ducks of any formation as soon as one maoist realizes that the flamethrower is most vulnerable weapon not only for the user but also those around him.

 

[Armstrong]

It pains me to see that you have more green rating on your profile than me and now I am to blame for that.

Busss kiya karein janaaab its all part of my cunning plan !

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Well for the first part, I don't know how you guys deal with the Maoists already but flamethrowers would not be the most effective tactics. Its showy, yes, and it might serve to have a psychological impact on the enemy but with its limited range and lack of dug in fixed positions to tackle, flamethrower carriers will become the sitting ducks of any formation as soon as one maoist realizes that the flamethrower is most vulnerable weapon not only for the user but also those around him.

Sir, that was said to that audience (of sarkari type) just for dramatic effect and was entirely tongue-in-cheek........
The earlier speaker was a Pulisia who was advocating a hard-line and wanted more powers to be added to sedition laws, to deal with something that he wanted to portray as 'Treasonable Activities'.

Lack of Governance issues cannot (or should not) be turned into Law and Order issues.

 

[Shamain]

It pains me to see that you have more green rating on your profile than me and now I am to blame for that.



Well for the first part, I don't know how you guys deal with the Maoists already but flamethrowers would not be the most effective tactics. Its showy, yes, and it might serve to have a psychological impact on the enemy but with its limited range and lack of dug in fixed positions to tackle, flamethrower carriers will become the sitting ducks of any formation as soon as one maoist realizes that the flamethrower is most vulnerable weapon not only for the user but also those around him.

J and k is a vast region. Is the rebellion spread over entire region or concentrated only in some specific part?
From what iknew both jammuites and kashmiris want to join pakistan or get independent from india.

I object...I will never betray the Motherland !

Did the Nihari have puttth aur machliii key bootiyaaan ?

On topic : The only difference between Kashmir and Bangladesh is a measure of success; if you're successful even your worst crimes are rationalized away and if you're not even your tiniest mistakes are made a mountain out of. For every State has employed brutality in crushing an armed rebellion and every so called freedom fighter has committed gross human rights abuses.

Its not about the UN resolutions, its not about morality...heck its not even about right and wrong because States do not have a sense of morality they only have self-interests and they'd be as hypocritical as they'd want to be in the pursuit of those self-interests.

Otherwise why do you think that a country created out of the demand for self-determination would look at every legal loophole under the sun to deny it to a people within its borders who are demanding as such ?

Why would a State that talks about state brutality at the hands of their colonial masters was busy filling up mass graves against dissidents in its own lands ?

Why is it a state who cries bilateralism at every turn and doesn't see the worth of the UN beyond having World Yoga Day's declared would give a pint of blood and an arm for a seat on the Security Council ?

Because Hypocrisy is the only Policy that a State - ANY state - has ever had and will ever have !

The time of chivalry, idealism and romanticized notions is long over....the sooner we realize this the better.

The solution to the Kashmir Dispute lies not in what Kashmirs want nor what the UN resolutions state or how many so-called non-state actors Indian captures who've got everything but a signed autobiography of the DG ISI on them but a Pakistan that learns to play the game called 'International Relations' - If we've built our institutions up, neutered every fanatic within our borders, instituted some semblance of meritocracy and fairplay for our people, have a PR team that actually knows what they're supposed to do and concentrated on all those things that give a state the right nuisance value.....Kashmir kiya....Kashmir ka baaap bhiii solve ho jaiii ga !

Our failure to do this and their brains to do exactly this is the reason why we're thought of as an imploding terrorist sh*t hole in the world whereas they're thought of as an exotic, emerging, democratic powerhouse. PR is everything....otherwise anyone who hasn't fallen in love with his own legend and isn't a self-righteous prick would know that India ranks higher than Pakistan on PEW's social hostility involving religion index, has more multi-dimensional poverty than Pakistan according to UNDP's Human Development Report of 2014, that for every Mumbai where non-state actors were involved there is a Samjhota where a 'State' actor was involved, for every Captain Kalia there is a Sipahi Maqbool Hussain, for every Kargil there is a Siachin, for every insurgency in Pakistan there has been a Khalistan, the North-East and Kashmir in India, for every accession of Baluchistan there has been an Operation Polo and for every hawk in Pakistan there have been many more in India.

Our issues stem from the 'absentee landlord problem' - Roneiii dhonneiii say kaam nahin hotaaa....kaaam karneiii seh kaaam hotaa haiii....so work on our shortcomings and become well versed in realpolitik - Do that and success will follow !




That was too serious !

Back to the happy go lucky me; phir Sethi Sahib sunnaa hai keh aaap asal mein Uganda kay Sethi hain ?

U are linking kashmir issue's resolution with strengthening of Pakistan's economy, an expanded internatinal sphere of influence.

What if j and k ppl refuse to join pakistan??
So they will be put on hold for all those years till pakistan turns into a global economic nd influential power?
And iok ppl will continue bearing atrocities. And there willbe no resolution sought for it till then??

Sheesh. No.

Thats why iok ppl dont need pakistan's help, they are fighting for themselves amd dont want ro rely on anyone.

 

[Icarus]

Sir, that was said to that audience (of sarkari type) just for dramatic effect and was entirely tongue-in-cheek........
The earlier speaker was a Pulisia who was advocating a hard-line and wanted more powers to be added to sedition laws, to deal with something that he wanted to portray as 'Treasonable Activities'.

Lack of Governance issues cannot (or should not) be turned into Law and Order issues.

Oh, My Bad!

 

[gau8av]

this burhan guy is an isi tool, his job is making propaganda vids from safe inside P.o.K, I doubt he'll ever get a fidayeen mission.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Oh, My Bad!

Sir.... no issues with that

However just a quick response to some of the points that you have raised here.... I will go through them more thoroughly now. And then attempt to put forth my views.
I agree with you entirely that we (or the agencies) need to re-look at methods to deal with insurgencies and the like. They could be considered to have layers in a sense. The layer that uses violence/terror usually calls for strident/ stringent responses, largely for reasons of "visibility"; to either overwhelm the perpetrators and to reassure victims. However the layer that is idealogical or mind-driven needs to be tackled much carefully in a calibrated manner, subtly or even subliminally. I will certainly consider this to be a paradigm in dealing with a movement like the Maoists.

Though immediately the question arises in my mind.... can the second paradigm be superimposed as a template where the is idealogy is predicated on more nebulous things like religious faith, beliefs etc ?

Your thoughts .... Sir.

 

[Icarus]

Sir.... no issues with that

However just a quick response to some of the points that you have raised here.... I will go through them more thoroughly now. And then attempt to put forth my views.
I agree with you entirely that we (or the agencies) need to re-look at methods to deal with insurgencies and the like. They could be considered to have layers in a sense. The layer that uses violence/terror usually calls for strident/ stringent responses, largely for reasons of "visibility"; to either overwhelm the perpetrators and to reassure victims. However the layer that is idealogical or mind-driven needs to be tackled much carefully in a calibrated manner, subtly or even subliminally. I will certainly consider this to be a paradigm in dealing with a movement like the Maoists.

Though immediately the question arises in my mind.... can the second paradigm be superimposed as a template where the is idealogy is predicated on more nebulous things like religious faith, beliefs etc ?

Your thoughts .... Sir.

In any insurgency, the ideological component is not equally shared by all members of the group. There are very few dedicated individuals who are committed to their ideology whereas most others, particularly foot soldiers are the soldiers of convenience. They are not there because they are ardent supporters of the ideology but because they are opportunists who see a valid opportunity to stage a power grab. A case in point can be Iraq where in a matter of half a decade, elements belonging to the secular Ba'ath Party had pulled a volte-face and allied themselves with the IS whose ideology is no where near that of the Ba'athists. So what would one considered to have changed during this period? Nothing but the nature of the opportunity, with the defeated Ba'ath Party being put out of commission and its most dedicated cadres being taken out, the opportunity of grabbing power now rested with the IS and those left behind were all too keen to hitch a ride.
So that explains how I view ideology as merely a vehicle that members of the group might not necessarily be attached to as ardently as they might claim. Now for the question of violence, it is the refuge of the weak, the more threatened a group becomes, the more likely they are to engage in attacks that are meant to horrify and stun the world even if it comes at the expense of the ideology and identity of the group because at such a critical stage, survival becomes the first priority. A case in point would be the TTP that has fallen on very hard times in particular, from attacking the GHQ, Kamra and Mehran Base in well planned and flawlessly executed precision raids, they have been relegated to shooting up a school full of unarmed children, attacking volleyball matches and the like. Their ideology has also undergone a massive change during this point in their history in line with the change in their tactics, from identifying themselves as the harbingers of Islam and the seeds of the global caliphate, they have revised their role to the defenders of tribals against a "Punjabi" army. When they saw their wider appeal faltering, the TTP moved to consolidate their support within their core group, the tribal pukhtuns and all of a sudden from Islamic warriors who were beyond ethnicity and creed, they became the defenders of tribal pukhtuns which once again leads me to my first point that ideology and identity for such groups is fluid.

This is my humble assessment, I hope I have done a fair amount of justice to the topic though I feel that @Irfan Baloch and @Horus will be more suited to address this issue because they possess significant understanding of the paradigms of counter insurgency. @That Guy, @Oscar and @Arsalan are also few of my favourite posters so I would like them to offer their comments as well.

Thanks.

 

[Burhan Wani]

this burhan guy is an isi tool, his job is making propaganda vids from safe inside P.o.K, I doubt he'll ever get a fidayeen mission.

If he was in AJK then why his brother murdered during thier meeting near Tral forests?

 

[Armstrong]

This is hmy humble assessment, I hope I have done a fair amount of justice to the topic though I feel that @Irfan Baloch and @Horus will be more suited to address this issue because they possess significant understanding of the paradigms of counter insurgency. @That Guy, @Oscar and @Arsalan are also few of my favourite posters so I would like them to offer their comments as well.

Thanks.

Hasraaat hiii hai keh hamein bhii kabhii favorite poster kahaa hooo !

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sir.... no issues with that

However just a quick response to some of the points that you have raised here.... I will go through them more thoroughly now. And then attempt to put forth my views.
I agree with you entirely that we (or the agencies) need to re-look at methods to deal with insurgencies and the like. They could be considered to have layers in a sense. The layer that uses violence/terror usually calls for strident/ stringent responses, largely for reasons of "visibility"; to either overwhelm the perpetrators and to reassure victims. However the layer that is idealogical or mind-driven needs to be tackled much carefully in a calibrated manner, subtly or even subliminally. I will certainly consider this to be a paradigm in dealing with a movement like the Maoists.

Though immediately the question arises in my mind.... can the second paradigm be superimposed as a template where the is idealogy is predicated on more nebulous things like religious faith, beliefs etc ?

Your thoughts .... Sir.

someone long time ago posted a video of a lecture by ex-KGB spy who talked about insurgency, grooming locals for your ends and gave example of his involvement with RAW colleagues in the insurgency in 71 in east Pakistan.
what was done there was true for that place and environment and time. setting a standard template will be hard though because we are dealing with human nature in a community level.

sometimes something as simple and easy as food resolves major issues that tons of money spent on weapons and clever speeches by the politicians doesn't.

from counter insurgency point, I will quote a British psychologist who was responding to the question about what does a young successful British Muslim see in Daesh that he or she leaves the comforts of his home and family and embarks a journey where he or she might not even make it to the destination.
he said that Daesh has masterfully sold itself to be a winner, a trend setter, cool, rich , top dog... it thrives and excels on social media, its graphic content as well as content showing foreign fighters driving SUV's and discharging automatic weapons is intoxicating for disillusioned Muslim youth of the west.

to counter that, the guy says.. that the civilized world must throw an equally compelling and convincing media campaign showing that Daesh is a failure. no one wants to be a part of the failures. now how you do that? its left to a moral debate and is a political decision .. rest what @:icarus has said is ample enough

 

[Icarus]

Hasraaat hiii hai keh hamein bhii kabhii favorite poster kahaa hooo !

Sir aap hain favourite posters main magar apko dawat dainay ki zarurat nahi parti, kisi buri saas ki tarha aap bin bulaye tapak partay hain