Kashmir's Young Rebels

[Zibago]

Born in Srinagar. Brought up in Anantnag. People call it 'Islamabad'.

I have relatives in Islamabad occupied kashmir

 

[Shamain]

We ?

Who is we ? .. and why should India worry about ' We' ?

Referendum as I stated earlier is dead as a dodo. China too is also holding parts of J&K so Good luck.

By 'we' he meant pakistan and ppl of ajk ,as both the parties will be involved if referendum is held.

I have relatives in Islamabad occupied kashmir

They are still there?

 

[Zibago]

This is not unique to Kashmirs especially from valley, there are many people across the world that feel imprisoned in imagined prisons. Tibetans, Sri Lankan Tamilians, Hong Kongers, and people of Xinjgang...that is how world is. Pakistanis should get it...plebiscite is never going to happen in Kashmir...Neither will be Kashmiris the last ones to demand plebiscite.



There are 180 million Muslims in India calling it their motherland...I don't see why 3 million Kashmires from valley should have problem calling India their motherland.

cuz a hindu dogra ceded their land to hindu india

 

[Parul]

We want unbiased referendum.

Have the original conditions for a plebiscite met? if yes then there will be one, and if no then there will not be one.

 

[Zibago]

By 'we' he meant pakistan and ppl of ajk ,as both the parties will be involved if referendum is held.


They are still there?

The only detail i can share is they are shias

 

[Icarus]

This is not unique to Kashmirs especially from valley, there are many people across the world that feel imprisoned in imagined prisons. Tibetans, Sri Lankan Tamilians, Hong Kongers, and people of Xinjgang...that is how world is. Pakistanis should get it...plebiscite is never going to happen in Kashmir...Neither will be Kashmiris the last ones to demand plebiscite.

I agree, its hardly the only such conflict and is never going to be the last but it is the only one between India and Pakistan. Frankly, I am a pragmatic fellow and can assess that taking Kashmir via force is a lost cause, its not going to happen. Its one thing to take a few roads, some posts and a sector at best but the whole Kashmir is vast and taking it requires numerical strength and logistical support that Pakistan cannot muster without putting its plains in danger of attack, they may be repulsed but India has a larger capacity for war in the end.
At the same time, Pakistan cannot withdraw from its stance on Kashmir as it is a principle stand based on the aspirations of Kashmiris, few they may be as you would say, who look to Pakistan for vindication of their efforts and struggles.
I care not for the end result, Kashmir may be free or go to India but as long as the issue will be put to rest, it will serve as a huge boon for the region and might allow us to make the Sub-continent the golden sparrow once more.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Not at all, I can associate with the human cost of a conflict all too well even for the Indians however I still cannot condone the use of torture, particularly when it is not even intended to extract information (which is a banal and frankly useless exercise in itself) but for the sadistic pleasure of one party.

Is'nt 'third-degree' common in 'our part' of the world, my friend.... you know that as well as I do.

 

[third eye]

Lol, That has got to be one of the best responses recorded on PDF, it deserves to be written in gilded gold letters.

Its a fact, check out the posts on this forum as a test case. They will corroborate the % stated.

t was slowly being incorporated in the mainstream but it is hardly in the fold, I should know as I spent the earlier part of my service at the border, before some senior officer decided that this young man should be removed to be taught how to deal with this phenomenon called "Terrorism" that the whole world is talking about after 9/11, not that we would ever have to face it, at least that's what we thought at the time.
I have dealt with more border jumpers than I could count on my entire post's fingers, people who were ready to leave their homes and families behind to start a new life for some reason I could not comprehend. It was routine to ask them why they had come to Pakistan and most of them seemed to echo the same response, they felt choked in J&K, Army, Police, Pickets, Encounters, Raids, Searches, Death. They wanted to escape all that and taste "Azadi", it is ironic that Pakistan has also since relapsed into a security state though AJK still remains a haven of peace.

I concede its not in the fold as it should be. Besides all other issues, connectivity is one of them. Soon The valley shall be connected to the nation by rail. This will be a game changer for connectivity.

The border jumpers you speak of must have been in late 90s / early 2000s. My experiences with people who returned were like .. a sense of relief on not being discriminated by locals in Muzaffarabad , lower cost of living and less of hard core religion. In any case Kashmiris have the tact to tell a man what he wants to hear that may be the reason why we both heard what we did. Azadi was the last thing they saw across , they felt the obsession with religion was stifiling & oppressive.

So.. its okay.

Obviously, the youth will look to militancy only when they feel that they have been disappointed beyond a certain point from where they can see no chance of return. If India is able to co-opt Kashmir successfully and the demand for separation ceases to exist, then Pakistan will not have a case to fight.

We are both working & heading in that direction. ( bold above).

Militancy is a steroid- its gives a temp feeling of relief with irreversible side effects for the man & his family. This is being understood now.

If I have learnt something from my experience in COIN, education and a good job does not equal a pacified population. I have arrested engineers, doctors, masters and doctorate degree holders who were hard core terrorists and were more dangerous than your run of the mill foot soldier because these guys could think, visualize, adapt and strike.
Its the ideology that has to be dealt with more than the access to education and opportunity. And how do you deal with the ideology? Making the people feel that they are a prison colony being kept in line with force is certainly not going to help. It would be a happy day for me when India agrees to hold the plebiscite in Kashmir, I don't care if India gets Kashmir or it becomes independent because on that day, we will be able to throw off the burdens of partition and move into the future[/QUOTE]

.

No disrespect meant, but on your side of the world religion is all pervasive. A skilled man too get indoctrinated by incessant religious bombardment.

We too have nabbed intellectuals of the same caliber

I do not wish to sound overly nationalist, but India has Kashmir. Notice, that despite having the weakest Govts in New Delhi in the late 90s and later too, our J&K policy remained unchanged.

Yes, we need to move on

 

[Burhan Wani]

Have the original conditions for a plebiscite met? if yes then there will be one, and if no then there will not be one.

We are ready to provide conditions share your demands.

We ?

Who is we ? .. and why should India worry about ' We' ?

Referendum as I stated earlier is dead as a dodo. China too is also holding parts of J&K so Good luck.

We "Stake holders"

 

[Icarus]

Is'nt 'third-degree' common in 'our part' of the world, my friend.... you know that as well as I do.

It used to be in our part of the world but then the WoT happened and we learnt that torture doesn't accomplish anything, with enough pain, I can get a dog to meow and a cat to bark which essentially kills the whole purpose of using pains as a means of deriving information and so we've moved on to other techniques of extracting information with more reliable results.

 

[third eye]

We are ready to provide conditions share your demands.


We "Stake holders"

Justin case it hasnt been noticed, India has what it wants & its been that way for 68 years
A plebiscite after 3 generations is a non starter.

Once again the UN resolution is unenforceable, we see it as an advisory

 

[Parul]

We are ready to provide conditions share your demands.

We don't have any demands. We've been waiting for Pakistan to abide UN Resolutions and hold the Referendum, but Pakistan ain't. It's been 60 plus long years

If you wish I post the UN Resolutions.

 

[Icarus]

I concede its not in the fold as it should be. Besides all other issues, connectivity is one of them. Soon The valley shall be connected to the nation by rail. This will be a game changer for connectivity.

The border jumpers you speak of must have been in late 90s / early 2000s. My experiences with people who returned were like .. a sense of relief on not being discriminated by locals in Muzaffarabad , lower cost of living and less of hard core religion. In any case Kashmiris have the tact to tell a man what he wants to hear that may be the reason why we both heard what we did. Azadi was the last thing they saw across , they felt the obsession with religion was stifiling & oppressive.

So.. its okay.

Yes the border jumpers did come in late 90s and early 2000s afterwards Pakistan hardly remained the sort of country that you would want to endanger your life to defect to. I can agree to that assessment as well, Kashmiris are indeed tactful people, except for @Armstrong who will probably defect to Ghana for a plate of Nihari.

We are both working & heading in that direction. ( bold above).

Militancy is a steroid- its gives a temp feeling of relief with irreversible side effects for the man & his family. This is being understood now.

That is true, India has been tough on law in J&K which is why they have better forest profile as well. Even illegal logging is punished severely, militancy is another deal altogether.
We were working in that direction as the Kashmiri movement had started to bypass Pakistan and tilt more towards a "Minus Pakistan" plan as Pak battled its own demons but as normalcy returns to Pakistan, we have seen another season where pro-Pakistan sentiments are being sounded and that resonates in the mainland as well which brings us back to where we started, at the brink.

No disrespect meant, but on your side of the world religion is all pervasive. A skilled man too get indoctrinated by incessant religious bombardment.

We too have nabbed intellectuals of the same caliber

I do not wish to sound overly nationalist, but India has Kashmir. Notice, that despite having the weakest Govts in New Delhi in the late 90s and later too, our J&K policy remained unchanged.

Yes, we need to move on

Though I agree that we have seen intellectual men fall prey to religious mania, I wouldn't say that religion is as pervasive as most people in India make it out to be, I think Pakistan's depiction in news and movies has skewed its interpretation a bit. The shalwar kameez wearing, Ji-Janab saying bearded, kalashnikov wielding fundoos that Pakistanis are made to be on media is a very small minority within itself, take me for example, I am a leftist and openly irreligious and yet here I am, my colleagues and friends make nothing of it. The same can be said for India too, I have had the rare opportunity to interact with Indians and they are not all safron wearing, forehead painting, akhand bharat shouting maniacs who burn muslims for firewood.
The newer generation has a better understanding of the human aspect of this conflict with cross border exchanges and social media to facilitate their understanding of the other.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

It used to be in our part of the world but then the WoT happened and we learnt that torture doesn't accomplish anything, with enough pain, I can get a dog to meow and a cat to bark which essentially kills the whole purpose of using pains as a means of deriving information and so we've moved on to other techniques of extracting information with more reliable results.

So.... you mean that 'Third Degree' has been abolished completely on your side ? If so, then Amnesty Intntl. would be extremely thrilled at the development....
Having said that, that shift is also certainly visible here, the question is that extraction of information takes place at different levels, that has a bearing on how it takes place; something that you may be aware of.
Using this to tackle insurgency is only a short term measure. Long term measures are different, and some efficacy is visible; barring "external inputs" that are used in an attempt to aggravate the situation.

 

[third eye]

Yes the border jumpers did come in late 90s and early 2000s afterwards Pakistan hardly remained the sort of country that you would want to endanger your life to defect to. I can agree to that assessment as well, Kashmiris are indeed tactful people, except for @Armstrong who will probably defect to Ghana for a plate of Nihari.

Appreciate what you have written above.

That is true, India has been tough on law in J&K which is why they have better forest profile as well. Even illegal logging is punished severely, militancy is another deal altogether.
We were working in that direction as the Kashmiri movement had started to bypass Pakistan and tilt more towards a "Minus Pakistan" plan as Pak battled its own demons but as normalcy returns to Pakistan, we have seen another season where pro-Pakistan sentiments are being sounded and that resonates in the mainland as well which brings us back to where we started, at the brink.

In India you can get away with murder but even God cannot save you if you cut a tree & its reported.

In the area you refer to there are other reasons too.

Yes, Kashmiris are bypassing Pakistan & Pak nervousness is visible with its insistence on meeting Hurriyats. We would do well to keep it this way.

Though I agree that we have seen intellectual men fall prey to religious mania, I wouldn't say that religion is as pervasive as most people in India make it out to be, I think Pakistan's depiction in news and movies has skewed its interpretation a bit. The shalwar kameez wearing, Ji-Janab saying bearded, kalashnikov wielding fundoos that Pakistanis are made to be on media is a very small minority within itself, take me for example, I am a leftist and openly irreligious and yet here I am, my colleagues and friends make nothing of it. The same can be said for India too, I have had the rare opportunity to interact with Indians and they are not all safron wearing, forehead painting, akhand bharat shouting maniacs who burn muslims for firewood.
The newer generation has a better understanding of the human aspect of this conflict with cross border exchanges and social media to facilitate their understanding of the other.

If there is any one thing thats harmed Pakistan that is its blasphemy laws & how it treats sects like Ahmadiyya, Qadianis , Shias within the muslim fold.

I too have operated with Pakistanis & I have found them professional , helpful & friendly.

I am happy to read that educated people find religion not to be all pervasive

I feel both Govts & their agencies should lay off, let people meet , let commerce happen- the rest will follow.