JF17 Block III: AESA Vs IRST - which system should take priority?

[Saifullah]

I don't sniff glues or anything else. IRST will not be opted for for short range, its only advantage is long range passive detection of fighter approaching in front aspect.

I agree that Fuel tanks should be reconsidered to be Super Sonic type.



Really? That is news. I mentioned those because they are NOT on JF17. Kindly show me references of the following on JF17 in service or in production models:
a) MAWS (there is a CFD and RWR Do you know what a MAWS is?)
b)LAD (there are three MFDs)
c) SS HUD (current system is a Tube based system)
Targeting Pod (which one is in service? )
IRST (Where is the IRST? Why do you think I will start this discussion?)
IFR (Where is the IFR in production? The Aerosud probe has not been put in production).

Really, if you don't have insight into JF17, kindly do not make any claims.

Keeping back to AESA vs. IRST discussion, the reason for either or is space limitation, and AESA availability. They are in conflict. The aircraft seems to be backed with avionics, and fitting a new system will present its challenges.
I am sure its nothing PAF cannot overcome.

AOA

Sorry for mentioning 3.6, it was mistake on my par. Also LAD.
1-MAWS is there.
2-SHUD is there and its VERY safe to assume it have SSHUD not Tube one because JF is developed incorporated avionics in 2000-2002 not in 1980.
3- JF have targeting pod WMD-7.
4- IFR is selected and will be installed stated by ACM and other officaials and all JF Block I will be upgraded to Block II level.

Reference:

1 -- Avionics | JF-17 Thunder
2 -- Avionics | JF-17 Thunder , Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Avionics Systems Co-produced Projects , JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool
3 -- JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool
4 -- Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Vice-Director and JF-17 sales & marketing manager interview , DIB_Issue7_2015_IQPC PDF | Your Title JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Jazak ALLAH

 

[TaimiKhan]

Many fighter aircraft analysts agree. For JF17 Block III to have any potency and real traction in the export market, it should have the following additions:

1) Built in Self Protection Jammer, instead of Podded ASPJ
2) Missile Approach Warning System
3)Improved Pilot Situational Awareness, with:
i) Helmet Mounted Display System
ii) Large Area Display
iii) Solid state HUD
4) AESA
5) Targeting Pod
6) IRST
7) IFR Probe
8) Tactical Data Link

On the weapon side, PAF should consider integration of lighter weapons, such as Hellfire or similar ATGM or laser guided. 2.75" rockets. Most of the African customers would require rocket pods and guided rockets, and not heavy missiles.

However, coming back to the topic, I believe that JF17, as it integrates BVR weapons, must have IRST to be relevant to future combat against low observable aircraft.

I personally think that AESA is overkill of JF17, and it is more to compete with Indian Rafale than a properly thought out CONOPS or ROI. However, there is no way around long range passive targeting capability for JF17.

Sir, i think they should incorporate both of the things in the Blk-III. I won't agree that AESA is an overkill, it has its own benefits and due to which the new fighter jets and older ones are getting upgrades.

And as for all the things you mentioned, if incorporated it is gonna make JF-17 a very awesome plane, though the cost will rise, but its worth it. If not all, atleast a 100 jets with all these goodies should be inducted over the passage of time.

Some of the things you mentioned are there, some not. Which are there, they should be upgraded with new versions and the missing ones to be added. There is a small luggage space available on the left intake side, i think it should be used to incorporate a modular kind of self protection jammer which can be upgraded with required without much hassle, instead of placing the aircraft covers / pilot's stuff. And in today's world, small weapons integration is must, it gives more fire power and achieve more in a single sortie.

And one thing i would like is, incase in future a powerful engine comes to Blk-III, a small kind of CFTs to be incorporated provided the design & other aerodynamic factors allow, as it will let the hardpoints to be loaded with weapons instead of fuel tanks and more flying time.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

The AESA and IRST will require more powerful engine than the current RD-93. The additional avionics will also require more power.

 

[The-king]

Gents (and ladies, if any),

I would like to start an operational / technical debate/discussion on JF17 Block III Configuration. It has been known in public media that PAF intends to integrate an AESA radar in Block III configuration, in replacement of KLJ7. Further, it is quite popular belief that IRST is also on the cards. With this in mind, I would like to discuss if Block III, the multi-role mainstay of PAF and upmarket configuration of JF17 for ME and GCC customers, which system should take priority? AESA or IRST? What are the options? What is likely going to come on JF17? Should the PAF consider both systems to be installed on JF17, making it a truly 4th Gen fighter with no second in performance vs. value?

Kindly do not divert the discussion to LCAs, SU30 MKI, and other platforms in the neighbourhood of PK.

Thanks.

Sir all above upgrades you mentioned not possible since we are using RD-93 engine which can't provide sufficient energy to power high power Radar and most awaited WS-10 not available in near future and we already decided to stick with RD-93 and in negotiations with Russia for possible overhauling plant in Pakistan. The best possible scenario is that for next 10 or 15 years above mentioned upgrades no possible for JF-17 and the air-frame does not allow us to put more avionics on board.

Regards,

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

The AESA and IRST will require more powerful engine than the current RD-93. The additional avionics will also require more power.

Both AESA and IRST will have Low Voltage power supplies, bringing it in current power budget.

 

[Spectre]

Both AESA and IRST will have Low Voltage power supplies, bringing it in current power budget.

can your provide further details to support the above statement?

 

[Viper0011.]

Gents (and ladies, if any),

I would like to start an operational / technical debate/discussion on JF17 Block III Configuration. It has been known in public media that PAF intends to integrate an AESA radar in Block III configuration, in replacement of KLJ7. Further, it is quite popular belief that IRST is also on the cards. With this in mind, I would like to discuss if Block III, the multi-role mainstay of PAF and upmarket configuration of JF17 for ME and GCC customers, which system should take priority? AESA or IRST? What are the options? What is likely going to come on JF17? Should the PAF consider both systems to be installed on JF17, making it a truly 4th Gen fighter with no second in performance vs. value?

Kindly do not divert the discussion to LCAs, SU30 MKI, and other platforms in the neighbourhood of PK.

Thanks.

We just had this discussion on a different thread and extremely in depth from a detail / technical standpoint. AESA and IRST are two different things and compliment each other. If they truly want to introduce the JFT as a viable 4th gen jet with 4.5 gen avionics, the block III will need to have both.

Pakistan has been in discussions with the Italians, South Africans,Spain, the French, the Chinese and even the Russians on this. The Radar will either be an Italian one, or miniaturized J-10C's AESA radar.

 

[shaheenmissile]

I am fed up of these dreamer threads. PAF is literally sending pilots to their deaths on 50 year old mirages and F-7 s and the existing block of JF-17 is not being inducted in sufficient numbers to get rid of vintage jets soon enough.
No point in discussing whatever fairy dust IF can or cannot have

 

[Quwa]

I am fed up of these dreamer threads. PAF is literally sending pilots to their deaths on 50 year old mirages and F-7 s and the existing block of JF-17 is not being inducted in sufficient numbers to get rid of vintage jets soon enough.
No point in discussing whatever fairy dust IF can or cannot have

What is has been the fatal crash rate of the F-7 and Mirages in recent years? Specific figures, I mean.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I am fed up of these dreamer threads. PAF is literally sending pilots to their deaths on 50 year old mirages and F-7 s and the existing block of JF-17 is not being inducted in sufficient numbers to get rid of vintage jets soon enough.
No point in discussing whatever fairy dust IF can or cannot have

Dreamer thread? These options are being considered for current configuration. Buy a rubber stress ball if you a re fed up with life.

can your provide further details to support the above statement?

the configuration is not final yet.

Current radar uses 12KV HVPSUs, AESA will not need that. Will send you the comparison when AESA is finalised.

We just had this discussion on a different thread and extremely in depth from a detail / technical standpoint. AESA and IRST are two different things and compliment each other. If they truly want to introduce the JFT as a viable 4th gen jet with 4.5 gen avionics, the block III will need to have both.

Pakistan has been in discussions with the Italians, South Africans,Spain, the French, the Chinese and even the Russians on this. The Radar will either be an Italian one, or miniaturized J-10C's AESA radar.

Couldn't find that discussion. "Pakistan has been in discussion" doesnt lead to any proposals on the table, or export license granted. The viable options for AESA you mention, but are the viable options for IRST? enlighten me please.

 

[SQ8]

Current radar uses 12KV HVPSUs, AESA will not need that. Will send you the comparison when AESA is finalised..

Although voltage was never the issue with AESA in the JF-17 in the first place.
Still, Ill refrain from this overly speculative talk other than bringing up the usually ignored subject of cost.

 

[Spectre]

Current radar uses 12KV HVPSUs, AESA will not need that. Will send you the comparison when AESA is finalised.

Fair enough - Of course it is too early to say anything conclusively but following needs to be kept in mind:

1. Cost - Chinese AESA though not proven would be the cheapest option which Pakistan can adapt to it's specific needs. The European offers even though on table carry with them concerns other than costs.

2. Modification - Goes without saying it won't be as simple as plug and play. One needs to see the extent of modifications and further R&D ( for Chinese AESA) needed and its effect on delivery schedules.

 

[Viper0011.]

2. Modification - Goes without saying it won't be as simple as plug and play. One needs to see the extent of modifications and further R&D ( for Chinese AESA) needed and its effect on delivery schedules.

This is where you fail to understand the term "economies of scale"!!! Pakistan is a downstream recipient and would NEVER have to pay 100% for any R&D. The Chinese are conducting R&D for their own projects and national interest, better military tech, etc. Whatever they develop themselves for FC-20, J-11, J-16, automatically gets miniaturized for the JFT. So the JFT gets "added benefit", it doesn't require new and expensive R&D for anything. Making all new technologies and integration of sub-systems about 50-60% cheaper than the market!!

 

[aftab_s81]

This is where you fail to understand the term "economies of scale"!!! Pakistan is a downstream recipient and would NEVER have to pay 100% for any R&D. The Chinese are conducting R&D for their own projects and national interest, better military tech, etc. Whatever they develop themselves for FC-20, J-11, J-16, automatically gets miniaturized for the JFT. So the JFT gets "added benefit", it doesn't require new and expensive R&D for anything. Making all new technologies and integration of sub-systems about 50-60% cheaper than the market!!

Is there any AESA system currently in use by PLAAF which is expected to be "miniaturized" for JFT? If yes, what are its capabilities/specs?

 

[Donatello]

Gents (and ladies, if any),

I would like to start an operational / technical debate/discussion on JF17 Block III Configuration. It has been known in public media that PAF intends to integrate an AESA radar in Block III configuration, in replacement of KLJ7. Further, it is quite popular belief that IRST is also on the cards. With this in mind, I would like to discuss if Block III, the multi-role mainstay of PAF and upmarket configuration of JF17 for ME and GCC customers, which system should take priority? AESA or IRST? What are the options? What is likely going to come on JF17? Should the PAF consider both systems to be installed on JF17, making it a truly 4th Gen fighter with no second in performance vs. value?

Kindly do not divert the discussion to LCAs, SU30 MKI, and other platforms in the neighbourhood of PK.

Thanks.

This is not an apples to apples comparison. IRST and AESA are for different roles. While AESA can be readily added and so can the SD-10B to make use of it, you would need good HOBS IR missiles to make use of IRST.

I would say, AESA should take priority, because in immediate geographic vicinity, low RCS aircraft do not exist, so i would prefer to kill them at 100km from my radar guided BVR , than, to scan in the IR spectrum and send IR guided missile from 50-60km away.