JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[ANG]

Hi, I wanted to mention that the argument made in the post above, stating the following, makes no sense at all.

"Nuclear weapons and missiles have stopped two sure wars---2002---2008.
But they won't be able to stop the enemy all the time. The enemy will get missile systems that will take out missiles nuclear or conventional---once it believes that it has the fire power to take out those missiles---it is back to square one---air power rules---the su 30 is going to dominate the skies one more time."

In the future if technology exists to shoot down a balistic missile, then that very same technology can easily handle a coventional aircraft like the JF-17 and the Su-30. So the Su-30 or any other conventional aircraft will not dominate the sky. Thanks!

 

[AVIAN]

Hi,

Thankyou for the responses---either you disagreed with me or agreed---.

Paf had no choice but to be involved in the project---it was an act by default---because there are no pakistani civilian aeronautical engineers available who are masters in building war birds.

Honda motor company---all upper management is engineers---the CEO of honda will always be an engineer---on the other hand Toyota motor corporation is run by acountants---majority of the upper management will be from accounting and possibly so will be the CEO.

Is one car superior to the other---depends on what you are looking for---both are the products of extremely high quality---honda brags about its engineering ancestory---toyota rules with marketing strategy---it is the end result that counts.

So, in case of end result---will the jf 17 be like the indian Gnat---now you people remember the indian gnat---a low altitude fighter---against the f 86 the high altitude fighter. Now just because the gnat was very visible---that nalogy won't hold true with the jf 17---.

The indian awac would know where it is and so would the su 30's massive radar.

The radar systems of the 21st century are on a different pleateau than what they were. Where the aesa radar can count the blades on the jet engine and tell what kind of engine it is---thus determining what kind of plane it is---guess what---planes flying together showing one on the regular radar will show as two planes on aesa---because aesa knows what engine it is---and which engine is mounted on which radar.

Nuclear weapons and missiles have stopped two sure wars---2002---2008.

But they won't be able to stop the enemy all the time. The enemy will get missile systems that will take out missiles nuclear or conventional---once it believes that it has the fire power to take out those missiles---it is back to square one---air power rules---the su 30 is going to dominate the skies one more time.

It is a numbers game---the problem is that paf is way way behind the eight ball---.

JF 17 just simply doesnot match up---.

Well let me reverse the situation---imagine pakistan owns the SU 30 MKp---p is for pakistan----and india has the LCA but no su 3o mki--- and every indian is bragging that its LCA will take out the su 30mkp and su 3mkp is a piece of sh------wouldn't you be laughing your heads off at the indians.

Please gentlemen---I understand your fervor and nationalism for the motherland----but it doenot mean that one may lose the sense of reasoning.

The typhoon jockeys may say that they are afraid of the grippen---but in the end they know that the typhoon will rule---it is a mind game that they are playing.

No Single weapon system is an ultimate deciding factor and MKI for this is not an exception to it, since use of particuler weapon system is simply based on type of conflict as well as theater in which it has been fought. On such a scale, JF-17 certainly has a ball to contain the conflict by improving its air to ground capability and to some extent air to air as well.

 

[niaz]

Capabilities of JF-17 have been questioned before and why not? This is going to be the backbone of PAF for next 20 years. Over last couple of years I have had the opportunity of discussing this plane with a couple of ex-PAF fighter pilots. (I am old so people I know are all retired). For whatever it is worth, my conclusions are:

PAF needed a workhorse to replace A-5, F-7 & the Mirages. Therefore the aircraft needed to be relatively inexpensive (it was required in large numbers) and also sanctions proof. JF-17 fitted the bill.

In its present form, JF-17 is a 3.5+ generation aircraft. Though not sate of the art; it is
far more capable than the aircrafts it is going to replace. Given the sufficient number, Thunder will provide adequate point defense and tactical support to the armed forces in case of conflict. Additionally, PAF pilots would have better chance of survival compared to when flying the bulk of PAF inventory of existing aircraft. Its Achilles heel is the engine. If JF-17 can be mated with a more powerful engine such as Snecma M53-p2 (speed improvement to Mach 1.8) coupled with western avionics; JF-17 would be transformed into a full 4th generation aircraft at roughly half the price.

It is incorrect to compare number of hard points, range and other capabilities with state of art aircrafts such as SU30MK1 or Mig 29K. Comparison with Gnat versus F-86 is also unfair because we are now in the BVR age, where with improved avionics, minor differences in aircraft performance can be levelled out. Its closest comparison would be with the LCA which is at least 3 years away from reaching operational status.

If PAF were to drop JF-17, only other option would have been to go more F-16 MLUs and wait for the capable J-10. This assumes that PAF had enough money to purchase sufficient numbers of J-10 as well as pay for the MLU. Also be prepared to wait for 3-5 years as neither J-10 nor updated F-16’s are available earlier. What happens if the hostilities break out in the meantime?

In my view JF-17 despite being a compromise, is the best option under the circumstances. Pak engineers have gained good experience in aeronautics and aircraft design in the bargain. Just to show that all decisions can be criticized; I remember seeing a thread in this forum where Musharraf was accused of sabotaging PAF because he canceled 18 F-16 -52 and opted for J-10.

 

[fatman17]

If JF-17 can be mated with a more powerful engine such as Snecma M53-p2 (speed improvement to Mach 1.8) coupled with western avionics; JF-17 would be transformed into a full 4th generation aircraft at roughly half the price

i am not so sure abt the former but the latter will happen....eventually! wouldnt it be 'ironic"that a US company (Raytheon) would get the avionics order!!!

 

[farhan_9909]

Capabilities of JF-17 have been questioned before and why not? This is going to be the backbone of PAF for next 20 years. Over last couple of years I have had the opportunity of discussing this plane with a couple of ex-PAF fighter pilots. (I am old so people I know are all retired). For whatever it is worth, my conclusions are
. If JF-17 can be mated with a more powerful engine such as Snecma M53-p2 (speed improvement to Mach 1.8) coupled with western avionics; JF-17 would be transformed into a full 4th generation aircraft at roughly half the price.
=
====
for PAF ther is no powerfull engine then ws-13 improved version..i hope with 100Kn speed its speed will increase to 2.0mach
and after AEsa euipment it can be termed as 4.5th generation aircraft
plzz compare it wilth gripen which is 4.5th generation aircraft and then compare jf-17 upgraded version specs..you will knw jf-17 II will be much better then Currrent gripen

 

[IceCold]

In its present form, JF-17 is a 3.5+ generation aircraft.

Sir may i know what is this 3.5 generation? Officially there is no 3.5+ designation for fighter aircrafts.

List of fighter aircrafts:

List of fighter aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[IceCold]

I wonder why people consider JF-17 such backwards in terms of technology. China has made tremendous advancements in the field of avionics and KLJ-7 which is the speculated radar for JF-17 is far superior then the APG-66 that our F-16s possess. So if F-16 was never considered a third or 3.5th generation fighter jet and one which did not even possess a BVR capability, how come JF-17 with all the modern capabilities become a third generation fighter jet?
Are we implying here that JF-17 is only slightly better then the F-7s that PAF currently operates. I have serious doubt over this claim as PAF would never put so much effort and resources into something which does not provide sufficient improvement over its counter parts and specially when we see it in the light of the evolving threat scenarios that surrounds us.

 

[farhan_9909]

I think Jf-17 is a best aircraft for PAF

And i can even say taht jf-17 II will be better then current Gripen and even the j-10

look at it specs now it is msotly comparable to f-16 block 30 and in future after such higly upgrade..like 100Kn engine and AESa radar..it will be comparable to f-16 block 52 except its payload is less then f-16 and its airframe

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

First of all I want to thank the HEAVY HITTERS for joining the discussion.

The jf 17's part---where it has to fill in the role and replacement for the F7's---all of them---the A 5's and the Mirages is abosuletely correct and there are no second opinions about that. There is no doubt about the work horse issue either.

But the problem arises when there is an opponent in the picture right in my face and all of his game plans are targetted towards taking me out comprehensively.

Our battle tanks are purchased and manufactured to take out the enemy tanks mano a mano and come out ahead---we buy submarines to have better systems than the enemy subs---we design our missile to be better than the enemy missiles---we design our cruise missile to be better than the enemy cruise missile---DID I MISS SOMETHING WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO OUR MAIN POINT DEFENCE AIRCRAFT---.

The thing is that of pak had 200 jf 17's in stock and the enemy had 100 su30---I would still be a little skeptical about our defence and offence---but due to the numerical superiority, I may breath a little easier.

Over here neither there is numerical superiority, nor there is an air to air superiority---an su 30 can carry 8 bvr's---the jf 17 can only carry 2---an su 30 can see and act from a farther distance with immunity---it can do the same against the jf 17 that the f 22 is designed to do against other air craft.

The su 30's bvr's have a better killing range than the sd 10---it can get closer into the 90% killing range and fire multiple missile at the same target before the jf 17 can get within the 90% kill range of the sd 10---the su 30 can then turn around and scoot---the jf 17 may not even have the chance to fire at 90 % kill range.

Our design is based on somehow the jf 17 will get closer to the su 30 and then show what it is made up of. Well that might not happen. The playing field has been changed with what the F 22 is designed to do---other air forces will follow suite as well.

The only serious threat that comes to the su 30 is from the Blk 52's and the amraams---.

The missille defence shields that I talked about---india will get it and pakistan will be waiting for it.

India has become a too impoprtant of a nation for the u s and the world---.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Hi,

First of all I want to thank the HEAVY HITTERS for joining the discussion.

The jf 17's part---where it has to fill in the role and replacement for the F7's---all of them---the A 5's and the Mirages is abosuletely correct and there are no second opinions about that. There is no doubt about the work horse issue either.

But the problem arises when there is an opponent in the picture right in my face and all of his game plans are targetted towards taking me out comprehensively.

Our battle tanks are purchased and manufactured to take out the enemy tanks mano a mano and come out ahead---we buy submarines to have better systems than the enemy subs---we design our missile to be better than the enemy missiles---we design our cruise missile to be better than the enemy cruise missile---DID I MISS SOMETHING WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO OUR MAIN POINT DEFENCE AIRCRAFT---.

The thing is that of pak had 200 jf 17's in stock and the enemy had 100 su30---I would still be a little skeptical about our defence and offence---but due to the numerical superiority, I may breath a little easier.

Over here neither there is numerical superiority, nor there is an air to air superiority---an su 30 can carry 8 bvr's---the jf 17 can only carry 2---an su 30 can see and act from a farther distance with immunity---it can do the same against the jf 17 that the f 22 is designed to do against other air craft.

The su 30's bvr's have a better killing range than the sd 10---it can get closer into the 90% killing range and fire multiple missile at the same target before the jf 17 can get within the 90% kill range of the sd 10---the su 30 can then turn around and scoot---the jf 17 may not even have the chance to fire at 90 % kill range.

Our design is based on somehow the jf 17 will get closer to the su 30 and then show what it is made up of. Well that might not happen. The playing field has been changed with what the F 22 is designed to do---other air forces will follow suite as well.

The only serious threat that comes to the su 30 is from the Blk 52's and the amraams---.

The missille defence shields that I talked about---india will get it and pakistan will be waiting for it.

India has become a too impoprtant of a nation for the u s and the world---.

1-Thunder can load 4-BVR & 2-WVR missiles with 250gal fuel tank under belly and PAf is seriously considering Chinese Multiple ejector missile rail for Jf-17 because FC-20 would have it.

2-MKI is made for offensive USE while thunder is for defensive thats why every thing is superior in MKI.while for tracking issue,Jf-17 can see into India aerospace by the help of AWACS and can lock multiple targets too but not like su30.

3-Chinese Pl-13 ramjet missile 100+ range,if starts serving PLAAF by 2013-14 then Pakistan surly put finger on it for FC-20 and Jf-17.
although s-10 70km+ range is better for defensive purpose.

4-BUT YEAH WE ARE FAR BEHIND THEN IAF BUT HAVING MORE THEN ENOUGH AIR FORCE FOR DEFENSIVE USE.

 

[iPhone]

Lollzzz that was a pretty low quality, absurd post from you sir. With whom we are competing with. US Air Force or IAF? If US Air Force then you are correct but if it's IAF then JF-17 is perfect to handle most of Indian machines excluding SU-30. I don't know why but you were looking a bit pissed of. Anyways I was expecting a better post from you since you are a senior member. We know JF-17's capabilities and it's drawbacks and we also know about our rival. And I believe we are going in the right direction. We aren't going to fight United States Air Force. Do we?

we're not even going to be fighting the Indian Air force. The time periods of two or more major militaries facing off, exhausting their resources and loosing many men in battlefields are long gone. Times have changed and I dont need to tell anyone into what and it's about time we get along and adapt to the new ways of the global society and warfare. This pissing contest of 1uping the opponent over shiny armor is very childish and outdated. JF 17 is what it is, it doesn't need to evaluated in a comparison module with an x y or z plane. The kind of war we are facing right now, it's perfect for it.

 

[notorious_eagle]

In its present form, JF-17 is a 3.5+ generation aircraft.

I am actually quite curious to know Sir how did you come up with this assessment, please expand on it. From what i can see is that JF17 is the most advanced fighter aircraft in our inventory as of now. It is a Pure Multi Role Aircraft belonging to the 4th Generation. The reason why i believe its a 4th Generation Aircraft because it houses a Full Glass Cockpit, Advanced ECM/ECCM Suites, Sensor Fusion, DEEC, EFIS, MFD, HUMS, FBW, RWR, DAS, Self Protection Radar Jamming Pods, HMS, Datalink, Turbofan Engine, DSI Outlet and a Pulse Doppler Radar. I dont know how possibly with all these specs it cannot qualify as a a true 4th Generation Aircraft

The thing is that of pak had 200 jf 17's in stock and the enemy had 100 su30---I would still be a little skeptical about our defence and offence---but due to the numerical superiority, I may breath a little easier.

Numerical Superiority was never on our side, it has always been enjoyed by the Indians because of the sheer size of their country and economy. They might be adding 300 SU30MKI to their inventory, but i doubt it if they will send all of them towards Pakistan during a time of war. The next war is going to be short and intense, so numbers wont matter much.

Over here neither there is numerical superiority, nor there is an air to air superiority---an su 30 can carry 8 bvr's---the jf 17 can only carry 2---an su 30 can see and act from a farther distance with immunity---it can do the same against the jf 17 that the f 22 is designed to do against other air craft.

Indeed the MKI can carry more weapons because of its huge size, but havent you realized that the first thing the pilot of the MKI would drop is his additional weight when he realizes a missile is on its way to blow him to pieces.

From what i know is that as of now; the JF17 has 7 hardpoints, the 2 wingtip hardpoints will be loaded with WVR IR or Heat Seeking Missiles, this leaves the other 5 hardpoints open and i am sure according to the mission they will be loaded with the proper ammunition but i dont think it is only constrained by 2 BVR Missiles.

I am not sure how can you claim that the MKI can see and act with immunity from a farther distance. Considering the fact that we will have 8 AWACS patrolling our skies, TPS 77/YL2 3D Radars based on Ground, there is nothing the Indians can throw at us that we will not know off in ample time. Both Aircrafts will see each other roughly at the same time, MKI's huge RCS will be picked up long before it can act naughty by our AWACS and Ground Radars. I think we should all write a personal Thank You Note to the IAF for introducing AWACS to South Asia, they destroyed the single biggest advantage that the MKI had over us and that was its radar detection range.

The su 30's bvr's have a better killing range than the sd 10---it can get closer into the 90% killing range and fire multiple missile at the same target before the jf 17 can get within the 90% kill range of the sd 10---the su 30 can then turn around and scoot---the jf 17 may not even have the chance to fire at 90 % kill range.

And how can you say that Sir, we still dont know what the capabilities of the SD10 are but we do know is that Chinese possess R77 in their inventory and they definitely would have made the SD10 better than the R77. Its only a matter of time before China overtakes Russia in the field of military, Russia simply does not has the energy and resources to compete with China on equal footing. The R&D and the Military Industry Complex that the Chinese are building is something that only the Soviets could do. Besides; we also have Darters in our inventory and according to Shamim Sahab it has a range of 120 km, better seeker, increased manuverability and agility. Both Aircrafts will take a shot at each other at roughly the same time, no sane pilot would fire his missile at its maximum range. Besides, we can let the JF17 fire the missile and let our AWACS guide it. The perks of Force Multipliers

Our design is based on somehow the jf 17 will get closer to the su 30 and then show what it is made up of. Well that might not happen. The playing field has been changed with what the F 22 is designed to do---other air forces will follow suite as well.

Incorrect Sir, the JF17 was designed to take on SU30MKI whether its in BVR or WVR with the help of our force multipliers. You can compare these aircrafts on paper all day that you want, but luckily wars are not fought on paper. Unless the Indians can somehow add Stealth to SU30MKI, it can definitely be shot down and it will be shot down if God Forbid a war breaks out. ACM Suleman wasnt joking when he made it clear that any attempts of Surgical Strikes will be met with an Iron Fist, well that Iron Fist was already demonstrated to the Indians Post Mumbai and the message was well recieved by IAF.

 

[ptldM3]

And how can you say that Sir, we still dont know what the capabilities of the SD10 are but we do know is that Chinese possess R77 in their inventory and they definitely would have made the SD10 better than the R77..

If only the world worked that way, correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't the SD-10 use a Russian seaker?

Its only a matter of time before China overtakes Russia in the field of military, Russia simply does not has the energy and resources to compete with China on equal footing. .

Overtake, did we stop making progress? The 1990's when the aconomy was poor there was little funding, but since then the military bedget has been increasing each year. And what do you mean Russia doesn't have "resources" we have one of the most esstablished military complexes in the world, and that's what counts, and the fact that we now have money doesn't hurt either. Also what does "energy" mean? If we have no energy we would not be creating new AESA radars which btw the ZHUK-AE is already in production, and we would be building stealth aircraft, nor would we be creating new supercruis engines or constantly improving avionics, as evidence of the SU-35bm, nor would we be be building systems like the S-500.

 

[anathema]

I am actually quite curious to know Sir how did you come up with this assessment, please expand on it. From what i can see is that JF17 is the most advanced fighter aircraft in our inventory as of now. It is a Pure Multi Role Aircraft belonging to the 4th Generation. The reason why i believe its a 4th Generation Aircraft because it houses a Full Glass Cockpit, Advanced ECM/ECCM Suites, Sensor Fusion, DEEC, EFIS, MFD, HUMS, FBW, RWR, DAS, Self Protection Radar Jamming Pods, HMS, Datalink, Turbofan Engine, DSI Outlet and a Pulse Doppler Radar. I dont know how possibly with all these specs it cannot qualify as a a true 4th Generation Aircraft

First of all i am novice in miltary aviation , so pardon my ignorance. Does JF 17 have all the capabilities that you have highlighted ? I am not sure if i have ever read about DAS, datalink , sensor fusion & RWR being present on JF 17. I was trying to read up on this and the only DAS i read everywhere as about F35. Similarly RWR, sensor fusion& data link. Is JF 17 capable enough to share data with other JF 17 fighters ? Also what all avionics were French supposed to incorporate into JF17 ?

Numerical Superiority was never on our side, it has always been enjoyed by the Indians because of the sheer size of their country and economy. They might be adding 300 SU30MKI to their inventory, but i doubt it if they will send all of them towards Pakistan during a time of war. The next war is going to be short and intense, so numbers wont matter much.

On the contrary as you pointed if the war is going to be short and intense , IAF commanders would throw in all its might against pakistan unless ofcourse India is fighting a war on both the fronts. And since Force multipliers (AWACS) are into picture i reckon it would be purely a numbers game since there would be no surprises left.

Indeed the MKI can carry more weapons because of its huge size, but havent you realized that the first thing the pilot of the MKI would drop is his additional weight when he realizes a missile is on its way to blow him to pieces.

Hows JF17 different from this ? Any plane would drop additional weight and try to scoot of outside the missile range , worse JF 17 has a TWR less than 1 , it has to drop the weight inorder for climb or for acceleration.

From what i know is that as of now; the JF17 has 7 hardpoints, the 2 wingtip hardpoints will be loaded with WVR IR or Heat Seeking Missiles, this leaves the other 5 hardpoints open and i am sure according to the mission they will be loaded with the proper ammunition but i dont think it is only constrained by 2 BVR Missiles.

Possible. Just for my knowledge - What is the configuration for JF17 in CAP patrolling ? I dont believe JF17 has not yet reached that stage , can you tell me the same with regards to F16?

I am not sure how can you claim that the MKI can see and act with immunity from a farther distance. Considering the fact that we will have 8 AWACS patrolling our skies, TPS 77/YL2 3D Radars based on Ground, there is nothing the Indians can throw at us that we will not know off in ample time. Both Aircrafts will see each other roughly at the same time, MKI's huge RCS will be picked up long before it can act naughty by our AWACS and Ground Radars. I think we should all write a personal Thank You Note to the IAF for introducing AWACS to South Asia, they destroyed the single biggest advantage that the MKI had over us and that was its radar detection range.

You are correct that AWACS will detect the plane however a lock on is still done by a fighters radar and not by AWACS. In this case MKI's BARS radar will hold good, since it can achieve a lock on much beyond JF17's range. In other words it can fire a missile much before it enters JF17's radar range and when it does i dont think JF17 will wait till MKI comes in the radar range, it will try to shake of the missile - this means any chances for a shoot against MKI will be reduced. Also i believe indians ( i believe all AF's) fire BVR's in pairs for maximum probability.

So MKI's radar range is an advantage albeit a reduced one.

And how can you say that Sir, we still dont know what the capabilities of the SD10 are but we do know is that Chinese possess R77 in their inventory and they definitely would have made the SD10 better than the R77. Its only a matter of time before China overtakes Russia in the field of military, Russia simply does not has the energy and resources to compete with China on equal footing. The R&D and the Military Industry Complex that the Chinese are building is something that only the Soviets could do. Besides; we also have Darters in our inventory and according to Shamim Sahab it has a range of 120 km, better seeker, increased manuverability and agility. Both Aircrafts will take a shot at each other at roughly the same time, no sane pilot would fire his missile at its maximum range. Besides, we can let the JF17 fire the missile and let our AWACS guide it. The perks of Force Multipliers

Eagle i dont believe AWACS can guide missiles - I might be grossly wrong over here - Do help me to correct my facts. If they are able to guide then HOUSTON we have a problem. Then by all means you are looking at a war of numbers and attrition -- In fact i dont believe JF17 will ever go against su 30 , mig 21 will be asked to fire BVR's and hope that the AWACS guides them onto target.

Incorrect Sir, the JF17 was designed to take on SU30MKI whether its in BVR or WVR with the help of our force multipliers. You can compare these aircrafts on paper all day that you want, but luckily wars are not fought on paper.

JF17 may have been designed to take on su 30 mki - But its not there yet whereas MKI is fully operational and it is expected to undergo uprages - for what reason i dont know. It will be some time before JF17 will be capable enough to handle su 30 (huge rcs or not).

 

[farhan_9909]

One question...


the 14 jf-17 inducted by by kamra into PAF

were all made by KAMRA?
i heard that only 4 jf-17 are made in kamra.other by china
so it means Kamra only manufactured 4 aircraft after the serial production till the induction of first Sqauden